I was wonder what the difrences are between an out of the box rifle that shoots sub moa and a rifle of the same caliber thats a custom rifle but like 5000 dollars or more compared to a little over a 1000. if they both shoot sub moa groups then why pay that much? Is it just a rifle snob thing or what?

Yikes.

An adequate amount of popcorn for this thread does not exist.

Yes it's a snob thing.

This one has potential.

is the butter warmed up?

well im new here and dont have any experience with customs but id bet that my "once in awhile sub minute with the right ammo" factory gun isnt what theyre paying the big bucks for, just a hunch.

I have seen out of the box gun's shoot good but the odds of getting one like your talking about are far and few bettween.

Low Light himself has said many times that the smartest move is to buy a good out-of-the-box rifle, a good quality scope (Super Sniper scopes run from about $300 to about $800 for their top of the line HD version) and spend all the rest of your money on ammo and range time.

The greatest rifle in the world won't make a piss poor shooter any good. Practicing the fundementals correctly and spending lots of time on the range however, will make that same shooter very good.

I love custom rifles and am a bit of a snob about them. But buying a good solid shooter is the wisest choice I've made in a long time.

Good question and welcome to the Hide!

The more you pay the more ornate Pandora's box is. Festooned with cure all remedies and potions to alieviate bore fouling and inaccuracy due to shooter error.

Well congrats new guy you just stepped right in it (just kidding) there is more to the custom guns thing than just great shooting, and for diffenent people it means different things. There are plenty of guns out there that are factory guns that shoot well out of the box, personally I dont want to pay the money just to find out if I was lucky enough to get one. I'll give you an example, you go out and buy a 700p for $700-$800, you shoot the thing and it really is only capable of 1moa now for some people 1 moa is ok for others, that aint gonna cut it. Now you spent that money for a gun that doesnt shoot up to your standard of exceptable. Myself I would spend the $300-$400 on a 700 action and use the rest to buy the high quality barrel that I want in the contour I want, in the length I want ect. The other thing about custom is the different components that you want on it. I really like AICS stocks, so most of my precision weapons have this stock, you are not going to buy a precision out of the box gun with an AICS stock (unless you buy an AI) which is priced like a custom anyway. I think you see what Im driving at here, everybody likes different bells and whistles, thats why they are custom, and when you shoot as much as a lot of the people around here do, why wouldn't you get exactly what you want. Dont forget its a snob thing too.

mike

consistency is a big part of it i think. Besides i like nice things and i work darn hard for them. Good glass is a must as well. Probably more so than the rifle. Heck i really dont know the answer! I guess it comes down to what you want and are willing to pay to have it! Lee

there is no difference...

And if you can point me to your supply of 1/3 moa rifles with glass rod triggers and smooth raceways for $500 I would like to place my order for a couple dozen.

skullandbones69,

Great question!

BTW:

What is the nicest watch that you own?

What is the nicest watch that you would like to own?

You don't get to choose the stock color(s) with an out of the box rifle.

yep i go for the coolest looking stock possible Jason. my remington sps tactical would definitely hang with my badger or any of you guys GAPs, LOL

Yup.



Therein lies the rub....

here's mine...............

My custom rifle impresses the babes at the gun range. I've never seen a factory rifle do that. LOL

Honestly if you have to ask that question you are not prepared for the answer. I'm not busting your balls its just an answer you come to with experience.Just the first hint sub moa at 100yds does not mean sub moa at 600 yds.

No one here will deny the snob factor. When you spend serious coin on a custom rig, or ANYTHING for that matter, you will naturally want it to stand out above 'the rest.'

You might also wish to consider the varying levels of 'out of the box' rifles. A TRG22 is out of the box, and I dare say that it can and will rival many of the top customs out there. I own one.

I recently bought a custom rifle from Randy Cain (R&D Precision), his signature rifle, Guardian #2.

If it means anything, I will say that the SAKO will be for sale, just haven't gotten around to it.

I love how Rolex people are always so humble.

Paragraphs help the illiterate among us decipher WTF you're trying to say...

-Slice

Ranger1183 has the winning answer flat out. In the years I was shooting my best and winning lots of matches my rifle was not the prettiest on the line by any stretch.
One year at Perry there was 30 shot rapid fire matches. The winner of the Marine Corps Cup (Jamie Trombley -beautiful young lady) had 300-9Xs, second place was Gary Anderson with 299-21X and I was shooting next to Gary and had a 299-19 for third place.
The most remarkable thing was all three of us shoot left hand. Jamie had a stick as she shot for Marine Corps Team, Gary had a Mod 70 that looked stock and I had a Mod 70 with a Fajen varmint stock that the exterior was just like it was off the profiler (I think I sanded the cheekpiece? a little?). I slapped a coat of poly on it, bedded it, opened the barrel channel and cut it off the back and changed buttplates.
A couple years ago I cut hell out of the left hand cheek piece so a right hander (new shooter) could shoot it, other than that it is just like when I shot it years ago.

There is a saying we have in the South----"If it won't run chrome it" Spend the other $4000.00 on reloading componants and a good scope. NOTE: Good does not mean the most expensive. I would get one with a life time warranty though.

Well said Hummer!!!

You are not just paying for accuracy. Custom actions a machined better, they are smoother, they are truer. This generally leads to a few things, they are smoother to operate, more robust, they work-all the time, and you know you are getting an accurate rifle. You do not have to tinker with it, you do not have to swap componets.

You know you are getting a rifle that is setup exactly how you want it and you know it will perform how you want it to. You can, of coarse, build up a factory offering to meet these criteria. But often by the time you are done, you have spent the same amount of money.

i bought my rifle for 500, got a simmons 44mag scope (old Philippine model) for 100, free floated my self for 0, got a tubb precision butt plate to extend LOP for 175, and picked up jewell trigger for 200, and finally an eagle stock pack for 30. the bipods and bags, i split between the whole arsenal. so in total, just over 1000 bux for the whole thing, but i spread that out over about 2 years. it aint the prettiest work, and later i plann on duracoating it, and switching up to a mcmillan, hs precision or brown precision stock. all in all after i get done i should have around 1600-1800 invested, and mine is exactly how i want it

Guns, watches, girlfriends, boats, autos, motorcycles, 4x4s, scotch...

These temptations are not decisions for the accountant. Granted, they all have functions and financial constraints do play a role, but Men who face these decisions must choose wisely based on more than mere numbers and fact sheets. There is an emotional attraction and/or evocative experience as part of the decision that must BALANCE the numbers (both left and right side of the brain).

If I were rich, I would learn to drive with a Ferrari, learn to shoot with an AI, deploy with a Rolex Daytona, and date (young) strippers.

Safely shooting sub-MOA needs a more in-depth review.
Motivation, function, purpose?
Competitive shooter, competitive long range shooter, practical shooter;
look good with the weapon, look good with the target;
look for the complete package, look for a hotrodder project, look for a good enough rifle;
shoot evil-doers, shoot wild animals, shoot the buffalo you paid for, shoot paper...

Are you a "gear queer" that needs to own fine items to accessorize and pose? Fine with me, I know not every Ducatti owner can race, but its still a fine scooter that can energize the couch potato to improve his riding skills by attending track days. My Shiloh Sharps is coming and I have yet to see a buffalo in the Southeastern part of the United States, but I've got the long barrel and tangent sight on order as well!

I'm an American optimist: What you NEED and what you WANT can both be achieved - for a price...

I am not saying that there are not some great factory shooters out there, there are. In fact, I have owned some.

My point it this:
If you take you facory rifle $500, have the action trued $600, put on an new tube $600, put it in a top end stock with botom metal and bedding $1000, put a good trigger on it $200, and add a bolt handle $100, maybe even a brake $200, or side bolt release $200, plus any shipping and other expences, you are easily in the custom range.

Do you have to do all that? No. But if you are planning to either immediately or eventually, you are not loosing anything going custom (or even factory custom-ish, i.e. AE MKII or TRG).

Nothing snob about it, it just makes more "cents"...and you have a truely great rifle that is potentially more robust and backed up by the builder. Plus, many custom sticks offer features that you just can not get in a out of the box rifle.

Hey my bad dude, next time I'll be sure to use paragraphs. I just figured with a name like homeslice you couldn't read anyway.

mike

what he meant to type was that it makes it harder for his designated reader to read out loud....

I played Minnasota Fat (Billiards Hall of Fame) in pool once before he died. He had an off the wall cheapo stick and I had a $1,200 McDermott cue. Needless to say he whooped my ass. The same goes here... the more expensive stick does not always shoot the best because it cost more.

$1,200 and it doesn't even have night sights or a decent trigger??? Wow, you got robbed!!!

Most of the 1/2 MOA "factory" guns you hear about are because billy-bob shot a 1/2" three round group at 100 yards two years ago. That's the best group the rifle ever shot and has ever shot since that day. However because it did it once, it's a "1/2 MOA" rifle. Yea, right.

My "factory" rifle shoots between 3/4-1" at 100yards with me driving it, on a bipod with a rear bag in the sun, rain, snow, mud, etc. Once in awhile I will produce a 1/2" group and once in a great while I will rock a dot drill with half of the shots dead center. It's just playing the odds. Statistics are a biatch. I do consider it a "sub-MOA" rifle because most 200 yard groups are under 2", and unless I really jack something up on any given day I can shoot a 5 shot group under 1" at 100 yards.

Now the funny part is, the rifle that came off the line right behind it may shoot like shit.

With a custom you pay for consistency and you pay for a known quality. With a factory gun it's a crap shoot.

However a factory police or target rifle will most likely shoot better than 90% of the buyers are capable of.

Well if the OP would have done a search, he would not have ask the question in the first place.

Fact, 700 Remington HS/P stock 300wm GAP built, topped with a SN-3 22X fell from a roof top, down 30 ft, landed on muzzle break then stock. Many rounds to go in the run an run it was in. POA vs POI shifted .5 moa your rack stick hold up to that? That is real world use/abuse. It's my stick but I was not running it that day,...DOD was. OBTW it won the shoot, with points to spare.

I buy tools that are tough for a reason, when it's all on the line, I don't want second best?

Let's face it, the original question is not "I only have $1,000", it is comparison between a $1,000 versus $5,000 (full build). Which means the OP is trying to half-ass his way into a quality rifle.

Yes, some of the extra bucks are going to 'gucci' the weapon but a reputable builder is going to work with you on options that fulfill specific functions as well. You will grow into the proper weapon, you will quickly grow out of the less relevant weapon and be back in the marketplace searching for the next great shooter.

My next weapon will either be GAP, AI, or McM. If you want to extend your purchase horizons look at those builds and spending 1k would seem down right irresponsible if you want a shooter that can reliably hit downrange and hold up to adverse environments.



Don't pimp my ride.

Are going to be a shooter? Then it might be worth it to get that custom build. Or......

Are you just going to be a guy who has a "Sniper Rifle"? Under the bed in the cheap wal mart plastic case so you can show your friends? Then I think you should take your chances on getting a factory that might shoot MOA or better.

Factory rifles will shoot under MOA, it just might take a little experimentation to find what it likes, not every rifle likes Fed GM match believe it or not? I know its hard to believe that!! It even happens in custom rifles too!!! Sometimes the rifle might just need to have the actions screws tweaked or the trigger massaged to get better results. Small things and attention to detail can yeild great results, plus being as consistent as possible in everything you do.

If you just got a used Remington 700 and had a custom barrel put on it by a good gunsmith, you'd have 99.9% of that $5000 rifle accuracy-wise.

Bullets, barrels, & optics. Those are the most important for accuracy. That said, I love being a snob and having my custom rifles.

WTF?



"Half ass his way to a great shooter"? Bullshit! For $1,000 a very nice rifle can be had. A rifle that will indeed shoot sub MOA all day long. Yes, there are some shooters of such skill that they will indeed be held back by a $1,000 rifle, but that is because they have shot at least $5,000 worth of ammo to begin with. And in doing so have practiced the fundementals over and over until they have become second nature.



"you will quickly grow out of the less relevant weapon and be back in the marketplace ..."

No one is going to quickly grow out of a 1 MOA rifle. That's crap! A new shooter will be spending a heck of a lot of time on the range and money on ammo / reloading long before they are truly held back by having that very same $1,000 sub MOA rifle they are shooting.



"spending 1k would seem down right irresponsible if you want a shooter that can reliably hit downrange and hold up to adverse environments."

The Remington 700 PSS and LTR are sub $1,000 (or close to $1,000) rifles that Federal, State and Local Law Enforcement agencies bet their lives on everyday. Both Savage and Howa are making very nice rifles as well for under $1,000. These rifles are proven to be very good. Unless you happen to be of the skill of Terry Cross and such shooters, you're not going to be limited. If you're Joe-from-the-block and want to get into shooting, a custom rifle will be wasteing money you need for ammo and range time.

Crawl before you walk. Walk before you run.

Yep.

Let's face it. Machinists like perfect tolerances, but in our game, a nice tight chamber and a good tube (and good ammo) are really all that matters.

Face it people..it's a tube with a plug at one end. There isn't much to a bolt rifle. The $5000 ones are pretty and all, but they're totally unnecessary.

Boy,

saw your BS shadow f*ckin box. What a joke.

Bottomline: There is no such thing as reliable $1,000 precision shooters where I come from. They are specially worked and custom tailored to be durable and precise. And yes I have been there and done that.

You have a very inaccurate approach to a very serious topic.

Oh, and just so everyone knows about Law Enforcement snipers - yeah the demands are different in two major aspects. LE snipers historically engage inside of 200 meters and do not suffer through continuous patrolling in the field with their weapon to set up a shot.

Also, tell me the Champions who rely on their precision rifles who use a $1,000 precision weapon system?

ranger1183 is an amateur on this topic. Most SFC's I've worked with actually know what they're talking about.

I'm stunned that you would mock someone's service to this country. There no lies or exaggerations in my so called "BS shadow f*ckin box".

I voted for Reagan in the 1980 election and joined the Army soon after. I was in Honduras when we "were not" involved in Nicaragua, spent 18 months in Panama and left after Operation Just Cause was over. I spent my time in the Desert Shield and Desert Storm and was part of the Operation to liberate Kuwait City.

I have seen "$1,000 precision shooters" in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I spent 2004 to 2008 bouncing between the two as a security contractor. I don't know where you come from, so please tell me about you having been there and done that.

Wow.

Basically, there are "intangibles" that seperate a custom from a factory firearm, be it a rifle, handgun, shotgun, etc. Whether or not you need these things, or can even take advantage of them, is completely dependent upon your experience. It does not, however, mean that the less expensive firearm won't function or perform better than your abilities. Most custom features have been developed to enhance the foundational firearm. But, the basic firearm is still perfectly fine in its basic form.

Until you are truly capable of shooting better than a factory rifle can perform, there is little need to get a custom other than to have the "cool" factor. Stating that a factory rifle isn't sufficient to serve a "working" role is simply asinine.

Seriously, a remington SPS varmin sitting in a better stock is likely capable of 3/4 MOA accuracy at 100 yards all day long. Are you? Is your ammo? There are planty of accounts here or basic factory rifles performing VERY well. Your chances are great that a factory rifle will meet or exceed your abilities right out of the box.

I know it's a 3-shot group, but here is a group fired by my SPS Varmint at 100 yards. I have the action mounted in a better stock, which I'm sure accounted for some of the performance. In addition, I was shooting handloaded ammo.



Here's a review on an SPS varmint. This is a $550 rifle. Drop it in a $200 stock, and you may well have a rifle that performs similarly.
http://www.snipercentral.com/remspsv.htm

A great deal of time and effort is spent squeezing out the last little bit of accuracy out of a rifle. Custom rifles are simply more precise, with tighter tolerances. Tighter tolerances leads to more consistency from shot to shot. Again, the rifle is only one component. There's the ammo, stock, shooter. ALL must perform.

The OP ws talking about sub MOA. We're not talking about benchrest rifles here. Few factory rifles, with quality ammo and experienced shooter, will not shoot 1" at 100 yards.

Many people blame their inabilities on the rifle.