Hello all. I am fairly new to guns. Got into handguns 2 1/2 years ago, bought my first long gun (LWRC M6A2) back in May / June. I shoot IPSC and 3 gun and am thinking of getting into the precision game. I have been lurking here for a few weeks and one theme I notice is that everyone seems to reload. Is there anyone that does not reload and shoots factory ammo?

I have no reloading equipment, and have no desire to buy any. Partly becasue of the large up front investment, but mostly because of the time investment. I have too many other hobbies calling for attention besides shooting, I do not want to add reloading as yet another hobby.

Would I be short changing myself by not reloading? Or can I find a good factory load (.308) like FGMM or whatever my gun likes and stick with it?

Reloading is not a necessity, but is a clear advantage.

You don't have to reload. There's plenty of very good match ammunition available -- for a price.

If you shoot a lot, competitively -- or for accuracy, reloading is going to be a lot cheaper for you than shelling out for quality factory match ammo.

I realized the benefits of reloading after i shot my first box of match ammo after shooting Walmart ammo for years. Theres no way for someone on my budget to shoot good ammo with out reloading it. Its more accurate and MUCH cheaper

You can obtain decent accuracy with factory ammo....BUT....if you want the best possible accuracy out of your rifle then you have to reload. Using fireformed brass that is specific to your chamber and with the ability to fine tune your velocities and seating depth does wonders for accuracy. Every rifle is different.

Agree. But I think there are few people who can afford to shoot often with match grade ammo and don't reload. Your pocket would have to be quite deep.

Hi Holdem and welcome. I just started reloading for IPSC last year but have yet to get the dies, supplies, and so on for the rifles. At the moment it's a non-issue for me since I don't have a scope for my bolt gun it's not eating much ...

True match grade rifle ammo is expensive. I guess it really depends on how much you'll be shooting the rifle as to whether or not you want to reload for it. Try several, see which factory load your rifle likes and then figure out how much you want to shoot it.

Most of you have said it will be much cheaper? How much?

Let's say I am going to shoot FGMM. That is about $1.5 per trigger pull? Let's say some practice, a class the first year, and just two matches per year (remember, I have lots of other disciplines to shoot also).

First year that is going to be 600-700 rounds, with half of that going to the class. Afterwards, 300-350 rounds per year. So about $900-$1000 in ammo the first year and $450-$500 per year after that.

How much would a proper reloading set up cost? How much are the components? How long would I have to shoot at the above rate to break even, not including the extra time I put into reloading, just factoring the cash outlay?

Most times reloading will cost half of factory ammo.However, some rounds (.223 and .308 come to mind) the cost will be considerably below half.Largest expense is bullets, next is powder,primers cost but it's miniscule( unless you get raped when you buy them)and brass is usually least as their cost is spread out over the life of the reloads.Press, dies, other equipment costs too, but is not normally a consumable so you can count it as an "investment" that may be recoverable if you sell.

Holdem 300-350 rounds is a good couple of weeks of shooting and 700 rounds is at max a couple of months of practice. If you want to get good at shooting you need to shoot. Especially long range. If you can get away buying ammo then all the power to you but most can't as it's cost prohibitive to being able to get enough practice in to be a good shooter is easier for most when they reload. There is an initial drop of money for the gear but after that it comes down to primers, bullets and powder as even brass can be used for quite a while. Reloading costs are more like a marathon than a sprint as the savings come from over the years doing it.

You can get into a good reloading setup cheap. Lee single stage press for example is a great place to start. 308 in particular can show great advantage. You can get set up with equipment and components for about the same price as about 200 to 300 rounds of FGMM, it will be basic, but it will work. Look here and on gunbroker for once fired brass. Use Sierra bullets, try to find powder and primers (that can be tough, but they are out there now).

The biggest problem I personally have with reloading is time. I have been shooting a lot less 308 recently for that reason. I am not reloading for my primary caliber yet (6.5 Creedmoor) but that is ONLY because I can find good factory ammo for less than $25.00 a box. I just have not felt the need to yet, but will when I have accumulated a lot of brass. I am getting antsy to try the Berger 140 grainers I have.

From the round count you layed out, I would say go for it. I think you could come out ahead rather quickly. If you were only shooting a couple hundred rounds a year, it would be a toss up.

There are plenty of us that have multiple hobbies, cars, motorcycles, photography, gunsmithing, women, drinking, food, ect. ect. If you are not that serious into shooting and just a casual shooter, and have the funds, then have at it with factory ammo. Hell, if you have the money, Pete at Corbon or Chad at Dallas Reloads will build you ammo tailored to your rifle. There aren't too many people that shoot a lot that don't reload, unless you are LL.

Well, I guess the next question is; how much does everyone else shoot their long range rifle? And how many of those rounds do they go through?

I shoot a lot, overall, at least I think so. IPSC once per month. 3 gun once per month. An occasional IPSC style match at the indoor range. Practice or play at the outdoor range a once or twice per month. Some occasional clay breaking. So my rounds are all over the map; 9mm, .22LR, .223, birdshot and slugs.

I don't want or expect to win a long range match. I want to try it, and could see myself doing it twice per year for fun. A few small practice sessions before each match and that is really it.

Holdem,

I shoot weekly & average 160 rounds a month. Like you I have no interest in reloading. However maximum accuracy is important to me and there is no substitute for quality hand-loads, matched to your rifle. I have a man who builds my bullets for me. I recommend you do the same. If my local guy couldn't do it for me I would talk to ChadTRG42. He knows his stuff & his prices are very, very reasonable. He can also Do the load development for you.

-Chris

i do not reload yet, planning on doing it soon

I was talking with a fellow competitor at the most recent match about how we are currently going through Hunting season and your get people out who throw 30-50 rounds a year down range. I started thinking about what I have done this year (it is not over yet). I have sent approaching 2500 rounds…..(kind of scared myself). With that being said, I am a hack at this, I suspect there are some members on the Hide that have easily sent twice that….
We are just talking “long distance”, .308, .260, etc

holdem,

Let's look at some real world figures for a 308 winny:

My baseline is 1000 rounds Factory fresh vs Reloads. I'm using 1000 rounds because my reloads average 10 reloadings, and I'm trying to normalize the initial cost of the brass:

First Factory: I use HSM Ammo when I do buy factory. There load consists of a Sierra 155 Gr Palma Match. It costs me $22.35 per box of 20. So for 1000 rounds I would need to buy 50 boxes.

50 x $22.35 = $1117.50

Now my Reloads for 1000 rounds:

Lapua Brass $60.99 per 100
Sierra 155 Grain Palma Match #2156 $319.90 per 1000
Primers $ 32.00 per 1000 For Federal 210M primers
Powder $145.00 per 1000 shots @ 47 grains per shot of Varget.

Total cost of 1000 reloads = $557.89

But if I buy factory HSM I could sell my once fired brass for maybe $.20 each, so that's $200.00 per 1000 I could recoup back.

So the new totals are:

Factory HSM per 1000 = $1117.50 less $200.00 = $917.50
Reloads per 1000 = $557.89

Net "savings" per 1000 308 Win Rounds = $359.61

If you consider that a "good" reloading setup will cost in the neighborhood of around $800.00 (that includes everything for a 308 including match dies). Then in less than 2225 rounds of shooting you have "paid" for your reloading kit. After that it is all gravy.

Note: I keep at least 200 rounds of factory 308 ammo on hand at all times, even though I reload. I'm a just in case sort of guy.

One could buy cheaper components, and cheaper reloading stuff like Lee, and beat those figures all to hell. So YMMV.

Bob

I got started with a Lee classic kit for like $65 from midway and a set of used RCBS 223 dies. I think initial investment to load for great ammo for my varmint AR was $150 for bullets powder primers and kit. I purchased some of the midway dogtown bullets I think they were like $30 for 500 if my memory serves me. My first Brass cases came from Win Varmint Value packs.

Now that I am in Iraq I hate to spend my hard earned family time reloading. for the 223 I will not and have not. I got a few thousand BH and Fed loaded ammo. For my 308's I like the black hills stuff. and 300Win mag I have tried the factory match stuff but i had to start reloading for it. Over the years I have picked up this and upgraded that.

The initial seems steep. But if you cannot afford the RCBS Rock Chucker kit for I think its $250, get the lee and replace as you can afford.

Bob,

That is great info, thank you very much.

How long does it take to load 1000 rounds? I have no idea if that is a job that can be done in a few hours? Or if that is a job that will take an hour per day for weeks and weeks?

Cannot wait to move to cheaper prices but more important, is this stuff avail?

Winchester brass: $20 per 50 if, Rem is easier to find but not 308 or 223 here.
Fed match Primers; $45 1000 if you ever find them
Winchester primers: $35 what I use but large rifle are non existent still.
Sierra match bullets; $38 per 100 maybe more now if anyone ever gets them, A max a little cheaper but its finding 308 in Alaska
Varget: $32 per pound and going up if you can find it or good powder at all in Alaska, period!

Cop Shop here had GMM for $23.50 per box and I loaded up, it is very hard to roll my own at this price at Alaska prices. Normal price in Alaska is $40 and GNG has it for $42 a box.

Alaska Tactical has a group buy on BH for cost plus shipping, again, its hard to roll my own at $25 a box.

If or when it gets here and you are lucky enough to get some, we are still limited to 200 primers and 1 - 2 pound of powder.

Not so much the price, its finding powder, primers, bullets. I hear things are better down in the States but we are still in the bare shelf mode.

i dont reload ,quite its not as common here in ireland as america or england for that matter. good quality match ammo is very expensive , last box of 20 remington premier match .308 cost me €40 .

holdem,

You can do 100 rds (depending on your skill level and setup) in around 2 hours or so. So for 1000 rounds about 20 hours. But nobody I know keeps 1000 empty rifle cases around, but I'm sure many do. Especially if you have an AR, and shoot matches routinely.

I keep about 300 cases per chambering, and around 200 loaded per rifle chambering at any one time. Plus for 308 and 223 I keep at least 200 fresh factory loads each in my safe. Both are bolt guns. Less for pure hunting rifles, around 100 cases for each, and around 40 loaded.

I reload in steps, for each caliber I own:

First I throw my fired cases into the tumbler 50-100 at a time. Clean them for 3-4 hours or as needed.


Next day or next week, I'll inspect and lube/deprime & resize/clean off lube, on all.

Next day or next week, I'll clean primer pockets


Next day or next week, I'll inspect again, measure, trim if necessary, campher/deburr, et al.


Next day or week: I'll reprime them all.

Finally, next day or week, I charge the cases, and set the bullets, inspect and measure again.

I only do everything at one sitting when I need loads ASAP. I rarely do more then 100 at a sitting. Reloading requires concentration and attention to details.

Bob

I shot 600+ rounds last month through my 700 in .308.

I try to shoot 100-200 rounds a week. There is NO WAY I could shoot that much if I bought my ammo. Reloading is the only way to go. It really doesn't take me too long to knock out 100 rounds on the press.

If you aren't an equipment snob you can produce better than store bought quality ammo tailored to your rifle with a minimum cash outlay. A Lee or RCBS starter kit is a great way to go. When you recover from the initial cash outlay then purchase a digital scale. It will speed your reloading. Adding a power trimmer when you can will really speed things up. For me, time is a big factor, but it's reload or only shoot 1/4 of what I do now.

I do not reload. I order all factory new ammo for all of my guns. I just dont have the time or patience to try and do it.

If I had the cash I would probably shoot more factory ammo and spend less time loading and more shooting.

I don't have the money......anyone want to sponsor me?

I am new to reloading... I am going the cheap route for now and use a Lee Handpress. I consider it part of my couch potato workout.

The Challenger isn't that much more and it's a great starter press.

I have never loaded a round but I'd like to learn. I've never had to buy ammo, or I'd have gotten into it already.

I've just gotten a bunch of .300WM reloading components to start out with. I'm gonna go get a press (and a professional class) this weekend.

M4guru,

You are gonna begin reloading with .300 win mag? If you are new to reloading, I wouldn't advise diving in with a magnum rifle caliber like that. I would start out with a simpler caliber like .308. Ultimately, I would advise starting with a straight walled pistol caliber. There is so much information to know and variables to consider with bottle necked cartridges. I started loading with .45ACP and .223, and I was so confused and a bit overwhelmed when trying to load my first .223 rounds. It took a lot of reading and phone calls to get a handle on concepts of headspacing, and what is actually taking place during the different stages.

The .300WM can be a funky caliber to load. Once you get the hang of a cartridge like the .308, then move on to something more advanced. Just my opinion.

Factory match ammo works fine, but it has nowheres near the tight tolerances of even novice handloads. I ripped out a box of Fed GMM one day and measured the OAL (from ogive) and headspacing to check for variance. I was astonished at how much variance I saw.

Also, factory loads tend to have shorter OAL, giving the bullet fairly large jumps to the lands. The first thing I noticed when I began handloading .308 is that the accuracy dramatically changed with the seating depth. Theoretically, the closer the bullet is to the lands, the more consistent the pressures and the better the precision. But this is not universal, as some rifles seem to prefer a small jump.

If you are gonna start reloading, I would employ the "buy once cry once" saying. I am not saying to go out and get the most expensive elaborate press out there. Just get something that you can see using even after you become very experienced and more anal. For this reason, I couldn't advise getting a cheapie press and dies with the intentions of upgrading later (that is unless you are on a tight budget, which is understandable). You are probably gonna want the better quality stuff at some point, so just get it now. I started with a Dillon 550B and never looked back.

I've been reloading for over 45 years and started with a Lee hand loader in 30.06 which paid for itself in the first box or so I loaded. I've been hooked ever since. Of course now I've accumulated several presses, tools, dies, the works. But the simple hand loader can still produce as good or better stuff than most factory loads any day of the week. Good match bullets are the key.

Lee still produces this thing in popular calibers. You might try this route with very little money invested to see if handloading is for you.

Good luck, Sherlok

this has been an extreme;y informative post. I have dropped around $1,200 so far this year in just .308 and I think that starting to reload might make sense.

Fortunately I have saved all of my brass and have around 500 LC and Privi brass cases. What does the "quality" of brass have to do with the "quality" of the load?

You can get to loading ammo that will be as good or (more likely) better than the FGMM standard for about 300 bucks plus the supplies to actually load it. Figure your first 100 rounds of ammo will look like this:

100 pieces of brass you already have - free
RCBS Rockchucker Kit - 300 bucks
Lee Collet Dies for 308 - 35 bucks
Workbench to go from - under 50 bucks for a well built setup
1 lb of say RL17 or Varget (when found) - 25-28 bucks
100 primers (bought in 100 pack) - 6.50
100 Hornady 178 Amax - 27 retail

That 100 rounds in FGMM costs 150-200 bucks

So, essentially you've made your money back in the first 250 rounds you buy vs. reload.

It has to do with the variance, as well as uniformity. For example, if you go out and buy a box of Lapua .308 brass and a box of, say Remington, you will notice a few differences between the 2 brands. The Lapua will have less variance in weight, case length and headspace than the Remington. Lapua brass also has more uniformly cut primer pockets and the flash holes need not be deburred because they are drilled as opposed to punched. The necks are also annealed. The brass thickness is more uniform throughout the casing. All of this added up will yield higher quality loads because they will be more clone-like and the brass will have a much longer lifespan.

Note that this is not to say that brass like Lapua is perfect out of the box. You will still notice variance between cases, but it is less than average because of tight quality control. With some trimming and precise sizing, you can get these cases damn close to perfect. Your quality control is limited by the precision of your tools and measuring devices.

BobinNC makes my case for me why I dont reload My AI shoots better than I can with FGGM. The $ I lose in 20 hours of lost time far outwieghs the $360 in savings. However I could easily see how if I was heavy into competition or a higher volume shooter that it could become mandatory. When I shot IPSC reloading was a must as the volume was at around 2k rounds a month.

You have a point if hand loading is a chore for you. But for me, it can be therapeutic. If I have some down time or cannot sleep, rather than watch tv, I will hop onto the work bench and load a few rounds. This adds up over time.

I have loaded 100 rounds in 22 minutes for my 6.5x284. It shoots 1/2moa out to about 700yds.

When I started reloading I spent hours behind a powder dispenser and trickler carefully weighing each charge. I have since picked up a Harrells powder dispenser and it has cut my reloading time in less than 1/2.

It has been proven that reloading is cheaper and produces better ammo.

My advice: Reload. Use good quality brass (lapua) as this will save prep time. Buy a Harrells powder dispenser and simply load and shoot. Unless you are shooting benchrest comps the rest is unnecessary. I like Redding bullet seating dies they produce very little runout.

Presses and tools are not that critical for our disciplines, buy what's cheapest.

And don't forget the "give a man a fish..." reason for reloading. Some of us (esp. those in California) have to deal with not only ammo shortages but also a generally hostile regulatory scheme. Being able to load your own gives you a certain level of independence (with the understanding that it's limited by your ability to get components).

That powder dispenser is serious. How precise does it meter cylindrical powder like RL15 or varget?

OK, next question for the reloaders. Why not use something like the RCBS Chargemaster Combo? After a quick search, I see prices of around $300. And if it speeds up reloading time, I would think it would be worth every penny.

You guys have piqued my interest. Not so much for the monetary savings, but the ability to develop a load for precision.

I use a chargemaster for all my match ammo, and it does a great job. It takes a LOT longer to use a chargemaster than a powder thrower. My match AR and 308 ammo uses the chargemaster, but plinking ammo gets the powder thrower. I can load several hundred rounds an hour by throwing the charge versus 100 or so using the chargemaster.

I reload in stages as well and make it a several day process. last night I sized around 300 rounds for the AR. Tonight I will tumble and trim. Then I hand prime and put them in a bag. When I decide I need ammo, I have the brass prepped and primed for whatever load I need at the time. My last 1000 round batch, took me about 4-5 days working in the evenings.

Look at it this way. Long term you are going to spend the money either way. You can buy expensive factory ammo (if and when its available), or buy reloading gear and make cheap ammo (which you can make at anytime).

Holdem,

There is a fine balance when it comes to reloading between speed and precision. Technology in itself cannot speed up the learning process. A "faster" reloading process, for a beginner, only compounds the number of mistakes that can be made in "x" minutes.

So if you want to start reloading, use the KISS principle. Start with considering reloading for one rifle cartridge (Note: I am excluding pistol and shotshell reloading which by nature demand higher volumes of reloads) say 308 Winchester or 223 Remington.

Next buy a reloading manual, or even better buy two. Say Hornady and Sierra manuals. Or Speer, Nosler or Barnes. Really doesn't matter, but it would be helpful if you considered what bullets you may like to use, and buy the manual that uses those bullets.

In the front of each of those manuals there will be a tutorial on the reloading process. Read those before buying anything else. If you decide not to move on with reloading, you can sell the manuals. At worst you will be out a few bucks.

Now that you've decided yes, you want to reload. What do you really need? I would stay away from reloading kits. They will provide everything you need, but you can buy better by going ala-cart.

First you need a press. You press should be single stage. As a beginner you do not need the complication of a turret or progressive press. Your press should be made of cast iron and not aluminum. Aluminum is cheap, and light. You want heavy and not so cheap. Two I can recommend without reservations of any kind are:

Redding Big Boss II RED97000 @ $155.
Forster Co-AX @ $235.

Those are average new prices for the press only. There are others, that maybe cheaper, but these two will be trouble free, and will produce great reloads with the minimum of fuss and four letter words.

Next you need something to seat a primer. Some presses like the Redding will come with a primer seater attachment. If your press has one, don't install it, or if it comes installed, take it off. Trust me, don't use it ever....

Instead buy a LEE AUTO PRIME hand priming tool. Costs a whopping $14.99. You will also need the correct shell holder for your cartridge and it costs another $3.59.

The Lee comes with large and small rifle trays that hold 100 primers. Never ever load more than 20 primers in it. Why? Because you are holding 100 mini explosive devices in your hand in a plastic housing, that's why. 20 is enough. When you use those up, put in 20 more. Savy? Time is not of the essence, safety is.

Next you will need a case trimmer. There are lots of good ones, but I like the FORSTER ORIGINAL TRIMMER KIT w/3-COLLETS/6-PILOTS. It costs around $79.00. I have one and I have used it for more 25 years. Read that again.....25 years. No failures. It is manually operated, and nothing breaks, or really wears out.
It's not fast, but it is dependable, and precise.

To use the Foster you need a set of Vernier Calipers, dial type. There are many good ones, and I got mine from Sears.

Then you need a powder measure. I use an old RCBS UNIFLOW POWDER MEASURE, w/2 DROP TUBES. New it costs around $77. I have had mine since 1973-4. I also have a Redding BR3. It's better than the RCBS, and costs $135. But either will work.

Next you need a powder scale. Electronic is better. I use a Lyman 1500. it costs around $165.00. But a Lyman 1000 should work as well and cost around $110. There are cheaper electronic scales down in the $36. range. I cannot comment on them.

Lastly you will need reloading dies. There are lots of good ones made by Forster, RCBS, Redding and others. There are micrometer seating dies, and bushing dies, and other fancy stuff, but as a beginner you should just ignore them. For you start with the Redding Deluxe Die set of your choice. It comes with 3 dies: Full Length Resizing die, Neck Sizing die, and Bullet Seater die. They cost around $60. That is all a beginner needs to produce quality reloads. And you will also need the correct shellholder for your chosen case, buy it at the same time for around $8. or so.

There are all sorts of do-dads that you will need that I have not mentioned, like: Case lubing, campher and deburring tools, primer pocket cleaners, case trays, powder tricklers, funnels, kinetic bullet pullers, et al. If you read the intro sections of the reloading manuals, you will need those things, and most can be obtained at low cost, under $15. each or less.

If you follow my recommendations you will have a trouble free reloading kit that will not need replacement or upgrading for at least 10 years, maybe more.

If you followed my reloading vs factory logic above, and reload only 1000 308 Winchester case per year for 10 years: Reloading will "save", you over $3600. in ammo costs in that time. I did not add up my cost listed in this post, but it should be close to the $800. I mentioned earlier. That will yield a net "savings" of $2800. over ten years. Thats a $280. return per year on an initial $800. investment. You cannot do that well in the stock market or putting the money in a bank.

In the interests of full disclosure: I started reloading in 1973. I have reloaded, rifle, pistol and shotshell ammo. The total amount of ammunition I have reloaded of all three types exceeds an estimated 75,000 rounds.

Thanks for reading,

Bob

I agree with BobinNC's logic and process. W/O getting into it here read this

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...96660#Post96660

Reloading is much more than making cheaper ammo, it's mental floss.

Cheers,

Doc

Doc,

I did not read your Intro reloading post before writing mine. Yours is better.....and more complete. And agree with the "mental floss" aspect in spades.

But at first blush, for a reloading virgin, it's all worries about how much it all costs. So I tackled that factor first.

But mental floss it is indeed.....well put.

Thanks,

Bob

this is a handy calculator.

http://www.realguns.com/calculators/handloadingcostsavings.html