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Powder degradation and limited ammo lifespan

Raivkka

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 10, 2012
78
3
60
New Hampshire
Someone told me something today that I had never heard before, that ammo has a shelf life.
Anyone know if this is true? I remember using 40 year old ammo in the past with no problems but new ammo will not last that long.
 
"New ammo will not last that long". I don't believe that is an accurate statement.

Nothing has changed in the past 50 years other than components are probably of higher quality now.
 
I'm loading with some H870 that's >40 years old, and some VV date coded 1995, and both produce repeatable results.
 
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Somebody has been starting rumours that primers and powders have been redesinged to have a limited shelf life so that you can't hoard supplies when the government regulates ammo and powder ownership. I've seen this thrown around on a couple of other boards over the past few years. The oldest ammo I've shot was WWII reimported .45ACP. For 60 year old war production ammo it shot fairly tight groups with no misfires. I still have 50 rounds of it, for a while it was the only "factory" ball ammo I had in .45ACP.
 
Bullshit. Same thing that was being said about primers some time ago.

How do you explain surplus from the 50s-80s being shot regularly today in 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 as well as 8MM and 30-06?

All bullshit.
 
Not a valid concern with factory and/or surplus ammo. Some handloads may or may not have issues associated with case neck/bullet bonding which I believe may have something to do with case cleaning techniques.

IMHO, as long as cartridge case condition is reasonable, there should be no powder degradation. Handloading powder needs to be kept properly sealed, dry, and free from temperature extremes in storage prior to usage.

Greg
 
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I have been using pull down 7.62 x 51 FN berden primed brass for years. I load great shooting hunting ammo for my AR10. It's throw away brass. Cost me pennies per round, made in the early 70's. Thats over 40 years old. Never had a bad primer. Also great for plinking. Came in sealed battle packs.
 
VihtaVuori recommends a 10-year shelf life for their powders, but this is a pretty broad field. I've seen powder degrade after long-term storage, but I've also seen (and used) both powder and loaded ammunition that have been around far, far longer than this. Much of this comes down to storage conditions, but there are some other factors as well, that the handloader has no control over. There are a number of solvents used in powder production, as well as rinsing/washing steps that are intended to remove these same solvents after their job is done. Any variation in this, and the remainder of residual solvents or acids, is one such factor.

I know there are still quantities of reference powders, including Bullseye, that are over 120 years old now, which still test perfectly. I also have a fairly large quantity of 30 Carbine ammo that was loaded sometime after Korea, still canned, in stripper clips and in bandoliers that I bought from the DCM at Camp Perry nearly 20 years ago. Again, no issues with this ammo. But I have seen both commercially loaded ammo, handloads, and packaged powders that DID break down and had become useless in much shorter periods. Store it properly, check it for freshness (color and "finish", a fresh, noticeable ether smell, and the absence of the reddish "dust" or an unpleasant acrid smell) and it'll probably do just fine.
 
I started using surplus powder in the 60's, stuff that was theoretically 20 years old, still had that ether smell, packaged in a rectangular cardboard "can". My attitude generally is that powder degradation is not a concern, stored and sealed properly.

However, I know somebody that experienced a problem with cases stored in the same cabinet with various powder in one pound steel cans. (IMR) The brass was heavily corroded and he couldn't figure out why?

Let me look up the post which explains it better than I can. It's interesting. (be right back)

http://coyotesrus.proboards.com/thread/19107/reloading-blunder
 
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I've seen degraded powder that was stored badly and was relatively new. I've seen well stored powder from the 40's that works great. I have some 1923 dated 8mm mauser from a factory in Poland that works very well today and I've fired ammo loaded around 2000 that was crap. Mostly it depends on components and storage. We are still shooting up surplus ammo from WWII and before so I don't think it really has a shelf life as such. If its stored well it can last a long time. One thing that comes up frequently is the subject of corrosive vs non-corrosive primers. There was a time when non-corrosive primers had a pretty short shelf life. Its one reason the east bloc ammo is corrosive. Simple to make, cheap and long lasting. On the other hand technology and chemistry have improved and non-corrosive primers can live a long time too. For new ammo I don't think I'd be worried about a 10 year lifespan. This stuff should last a long time.

Frank
 
Nothing has changed in the past 50 years other than components are probably of higher quality now.--FN in MT

Somebody has been starting rumours that primers and powders have been redesinged to have a limited shelf life so that you can't hoard supplies when the government regulates ammo and powder ownership. I've seen this thrown around on a couple of other boards over the past few years. ...

I agree that the quality is probably as high as it has ever been; however, I also hope that the rumours are completely unfounded. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they ain't out to get me. lol

Seriously though, if someone told me about half the stuff Eric Holder is actually doing, I would think they were wearing tin-foil hats and watching out for black helicopters. OOPS, Just kidding Eric!
 
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I guess I should clarify.
I know old ammo, power and primers work as we have all shot old ammo successfully.

The question is, IS NEW powder and primers having degradation properties engineered into them?

It wouldn't surprise as modern business is as unscrupulous as ever but firearms supplies not working is pretty serious.
I have a hard time accepting firearms products are being engineered to NOT work.
 
There was some movement to restrict powder shelf life many years ago (maybe 20 years ago?) that never amounted to anything. Bottom line there was, there was no way to do it without creating massive problems. Can you imagine the liability issues for duty or defensive ammo alone? It didn't amount to anything. There have also been pushes o add taggants to powder, similar to those which are used in many explosives. To date, they haven't found a method of doing this that wouldn't have serious complications with the powder, rendering it unreliable at best, or dangerous to load with existing data. There have been other components that have also had shelf life issues, primers being a notable example. The switch to non-corrosive primers during WWII was delayed for a time due to problems with non-corrosive priming compounds breaking down in less than ideal storage conditions.

The issue with powders isn't one of intentional shelf life breakdowns, but simply the fact that they are organic compounds, and have some inherent instability in them that can be broken down by environmental factors during storage, time, or both. The powders are made to be as stable and long lasting as they can be. That's not the same as saying they have indefinite storage life, or that those environmental factors don't play a role in determining that shelf life. They don't last forever, and it's our responsibility as handloaders to check on their status as we load and use them.
 
These guys are all full of beans! If you have ANY ammo that is over 10 years old, Especially 22LR, 30-06 and 5.56, please do not take any chances and shoot the stuff. There is a disposal center in Western North Carolina that will pay the freight for your old ammo. You can PM me for an address.
 
I am currently doing a series of test on this very subject. I have had 1 lb of 2000MR now in my chargemaster for a little over 6 months. I have shot loads at 1 month, 3 months, and I will load up soon for the 6 month load. 1 and 3 had zero difference out to 600. We will see for how we look at the 6 month mark but I don't think it will be much different.
It is in my garage with AC vent(no return) in South LA @ about 100% humidty and 95* everyday lol.
 
There is a man with too much time on his hands. Atta boy!

For something a little more useful, could you please check every drain in the northern hemisphere just to make sure they all swirl in the same direction. Can't be too careful. BB
 
I guess I should clarify.
I know old ammo, power and primers work as we have all shot old ammo successfully.

The question is, IS NEW powder and primers having degradation properties engineered into them?

It wouldn't surprise as modern business is as unscrupulous as ever but firearms supplies not working is pretty serious.
I have a hard time accepting firearms products are being engineered to NOT work.

Apparently you are too young to remember cracked dashboards on cars. American cars were designed to have the dashboard crack after a certain amount of time so that you would buy a new car. When the Jap cars appeared and offered serious competition, the cracked dashboards magically went away. And I had not considered engineered obsolesence in ammo for commercial purposes, I was talking about the rumor that big brother was mandating it. I agree that ammo is too serious for manufacturers to mess with its reliability. MAJOR lawsuits in the making, not to mention the ethical concerns. That's why I suspected the politicians, i.e. lack of ethics. Guns have two enemies, rust and politicians.
 
... simply the fact that they are organic compounds, and have some inherent instability in them that can be broken down by environmental factors during storage, time, or both. The powders are made to be as stable and long lasting as they can be. That's not the same as saying they have indefinite storage life, or that those environmental factors don't play a role in determining that shelf life. They don't last forever, and it's our responsibility as handloaders to check on their status as we load and use them.

Kevin, I understand exposure to air and also high temperatures, how stable would you say powder and primers are once loaded and stored in temperature/humidity controlled environments? That should greatly limit offgassing or exposure to air. If that is not good enough, would you recommend test firing and/or pulling and testing
components every, say 5-10 years?
 
These guys are all full of beans! If you have ANY ammo that is over 10 years old, Especially 22LR, 30-06 and 5.56, please do not take any chances and shoot the stuff. There is a disposal center in Western North Carolina that will pay the freight for your old ammo. You can PM me for an address.

You owe me $15 for a new keyboard. I'm still laughing. Any other forum, you might find a few suckers for that one!
 
I am currently doing a series of test on this very subject. I have had 1 lb of 2000MR now in my chargemaster for a little over 6 months. I have shot loads at 1 month, 3 months, and I will load up soon for the 6 month load. 1 and 3 had zero difference out to 600. We will see for how we look at the 6 month mark but I don't think it will be much different.
It is in my garage with AC vent(no return) in South LA @ about 100% humidty and 95* everyday lol.

You can make a pound of powder last 6 months? Even with 5.56, that's only 47 rounds/month.
 
You can make a pound of powder last 6 months? Even with 5.56, that's only 47 rounds/month.

I do my reloading in bulk so, I had plenty already made up. Just was to lazy to empty it and decided why not try this to see if there is anything negative that could happen.
 
These guys are all full of beans! If you have ANY ammo that is over 10 years old, Especially 22LR, 30-06 and 5.56, please do not take any chances and shoot the stuff. There is a disposal center in Western North Carolina that will pay the freight for your old ammo. You can PM me for an address.

There is also an extremely similar location on Long Island, NY.
 
Rsplante,

As I said, there's a number of variables in play here, many of which we have no control over. Proper storage conditions are definitely a plus, and I've used ammunition that (properly stored) was 50-6- years old. By the same token, I've seen ammunition that was only a few years old that was starting to show signs of deterioration and breakdown. I've got ammo around the house right now that I loaded over 20 years ago (I'm big on labeling my ammo) that shows no problem whatsoever. Packaged, stored in cool temp areas that aren't subject to wide temperature swings and sealed in GI ammo cans, it'll last a long time . . . probably. Pulling some out and checking it occasionally seems like a good idea to me.
 
These guys are all full of beans! If you have ANY ammo that is over 10 years old, Especially 22LR, 30-06 and 5.56, please do not take any chances and shoot the stuff. There is a disposal center in Western North Carolina that will pay the freight for your old ammo. You can PM me for an address.

Actually I know of one in San Diego that is local to the OP. Just PM me your address and I'll let them know so they can come and pick it up from your house. You won't even have to box it up for shipping...