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2024 Night Vision and Thermal Advice

GUNENTHUSIAST

American
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 8, 2010
299
26
SE PA
Hey Fellas,

Sorry ahead of time for the long winded question.
Finally getting ready to pull the trigger on a night vision/thermal set up after more than a decade of shopping. There are a lot of new products that I’m not familiar with now. I literally have nothing, other than night vision compatible optics such as aimpoint t-1s, acogs, vcogs and high power scopes on long range rifles. I’m basically starting with a clean slate.
My intended use is shtf homestead defense and I plan to do some night vision classes as well as predator hunting on occasion. Most of my land is forest and there isn’t many opportunities to see/shoot beyond 300 yards. I convinced the wife of our need and lack of preparedness in the dark. She has signed off on 15 grand, so that really means 20. I’m guessing I can get away with spending about 30 grand maximum without also getting divorce papers. I am a dealer, so I believe I should qualify for wholesale pricing. I think at a minimum I want a helmet (I think ballistic), helmet mounted NV and a thermal monocular that can be a clip on if needed, as well as an ir laser for a pistol and rifle. My distributor has the DBAL D2 in stock so thinking about getting that. I really want to stick to products that are “military grade” or have been issued. Not interested in imported from china or consumer level products. This is a large investment and needs to hold its value to some degree, and be serviceable with a sturdy company for the long term. So far really liking, at least on paper:
Ops Core Fast SF
DBAL D2
PVS-31A or BNVD 1531
Skeet IRX (save 8 grand and get ir patrol?)
Anything else to look at? Are these the best options out there?

Thanks!
 
With your budget and use cases, I’d recommend considering the Voodoo-S over the Skeetir-X.

Similar, but the Skeetir is pretty much an excellent monocular that can handle light clip on use. The Voodoo-S is more balanced on the spectrum of which it excels at, doing both clip on and monocular duty very well.
 
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I bought my first NV and thermal many years ago after discussing with TNVC. They only sell “military grade”. When I bought mine I called and a guy discussed in detail my uses and they made recommendations.
i would suggest calling them.
 
I bought my first NV in Apr 2013 and have spent an avg 10 hrs per week outside since.

I had a $20k budget at that point and thought that would be enough for a one time "splurge" and I'd never need anything else (oh boy - was I wong ! :D )
I now realize getting into learning about and owning and gaining experience with NV/Thermal is a never ending process - NOT an event. So that's probably the most important thing I've learned over the past 11 years.
So consider "buy a little - learn a lot - buy a little more - learn a lot more ... and repeat until in the ground" vs a $15k type event.

Dual Tube NV is lighter than 2 x 14s but not as flexible. Its harder to have NV and longer distance Thermal spotter on your head side by side with DTNV. So this is a consideration. That said, 90% at least of other pundits, will say it is "insane" to put thermal on your head and it should only be carried in your pocket. Back in 2016 when the Patrol and Q-14 first came out and I posted about getting them to put on my head - I was told (literally) that I would get dizzy, fall over and die. Which miraculously (apparently) did not happen. But don't expect to be popular if you put thermal on your head !
On the other hand, being able to see critters (regardless of ilk) passively even in woods or moonshadows, handsfree while moving, is very liberating ... and if its on your head, you'll see that threat or critter faster than you would if its in your pocket. NV often cannot see critters when its really dark (overcast & no moon), thermal (almost) always can. For hunting/critter control, we really don't even need NV. For homestead defense, we must have both.
So thermal on head is a key decision BUTT not one you must make on day one. Though if you follow through with the idea of one massive purchase for a night gear, then you would have to make it soon.

As to Ballistic vs bump helmets. I have 2 of each and also 2 Crye Night caps and even 2 skull crushers. In hindsight, I think the extra cost and weight of the ballistics are not worth it. If you will be in 100+ gun fights or get shelled numerous times by mortars or fired at by RPGs dozens of times, then maybe. But even for homestead defense, it might not be persistent, never ending attacks with heavy infantry weapons. So, if I was only getting one helmet I'd get a bump. The primary purpose is as a platform to mount your head mounted NODs and bumps work fine for that. Making sure it fits you is critical (so avoid used - unless you love to tinker) ... upgrading the pads can help with fit and comfort, but most important - getting flexible counterweight system (like EOG) is most critical as you must balance the counterweight against the front end weight, which might be a lb or 2 !

Will you shoot with laser ? In the terrain you describe I would think its likely, so I would invest in a good laser setup and train continuously with it. Newer, lower cost VSCEL lasers are coming out that rival the military FP lasers (like the steiner dbal a2). New Holosun IRIS is something to watch out for. I would totally avoid low power civ laser units - the aiming lasers are usable, but the illuminators are useless. Its also possible to get separate aiming laser and ir illumn but once you combine with white light on the gun also, that gives you 3 items to switch and 3 switches is too many. Hence the combo ir/ir illum are indicated for one switch and the white light for the other. Being able to instantly switch on either ir and or ir/lum or white light is a detailed but essential consideration. He who fires effectively first wins the first engagement.
It might take a while to get this perfect, so don't be in too much of a hurry here. Let experience be your guide.

==

So those are key considerations to mull over !!

If I was starting now - knowing what I know. I echo evo9 and I would get a voodoo-S ... its really the first and only (serious) thermal that is effective at both the head mountable thermal role AND the clipon role, especially the clipon role. Expect to be able to engage minute of man sized targets out to 500-ish (if you can hit such in the day time). That would chew up about $15k of your $15k budget, but you'd know you'd be totally solid in this space. Then something like an Ops Core or Team Hillary (aka Team Wendy) bump helmet and a mount and a bridge - all that would run another $1k for serious gear.
Then a PVS-14. I have 4xPVS-14 all green tube and I paid an avg of about $2,500 for them over the last 11 years ... but green tubes are pretty much done now. The white tubers run from $3k up to I've even seen $8k for the extra/ultra high spec tubes. Another thing about me ... I am NOT in the "My FOM is higher than your FOM" club. For me any gen3 tube is good enough if it works and is not occluded with spots.
With one 14 you'll be able to put that on your bridge either with or without the VoodooS and be able to see the laser and have other observation capabilities that the thermal doesn't have (like see long distance vis or ir lights - i.e. detection of possible hostile presence). We need NV for homestead defense ( and you'll want to get a slip on/screw on 3x magnifier for your 14 one day to extend you observation range).
And to see lasers !

Then it would make sense to get your ir laser/ir illum unit vscel if possible and a separate white light. And get those mounted on your forearm in a very ergonomic arrangement that is 5000% auto repeatable for you to operate them and get the result you want each and every time.
IR laser/Illum and white light might run $1000 or a little more.
So with the lasers and the thermal clipon (in step 01 above) you'd have 2 aiming systems, the lasers for short distance, instantaneous engagements and the thermal clipon for further out.

Then a COTI ? Mounting a COTI on the 14 gives you a thermal overlay for shooting with the laser so the critter is seen by the COTI and the laser by the 14 and they are aligned so you can shoot the critter with the laser while you might not even be able to see the critter with the 14 (due to vegetation or otherwise). Shooting with laser, 14 and COTI is very fast, you don't even have to pull up, just aim and fire. Can be ~sub second with practice. I've killed about 25% of the critters I've killed with the laser. And critter controlling around the cattle and chickens in and around the woods is good practice.

And of course, shoot a little every day and night to keep your fundamentals honed. My goal is avg 7 rds per day, I am currently avging 3 per day for this year, but I know I must improve. Fundamentals are a fine motor skill which must be practiced all the time to be maintained. One per day is acceptable, provided its every day !

Good luck on your journey and welcome to the NV/Thermal world !!! :D
 
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Wow guys! What great info! Really appreciate the time you took for this response wigwamitus. Thanks a bunch!
Ok I’m now in the voodoo s camp.
If I did do a PVS-14 and VDS what helmet setup is recommended? I think I’d want something articulating?
I believe you are saying the dbal d2 is not good enough and to forget civi laser/Illuminators all together? What’s a non Chinese quality product you’d suggest and how do I get it?
 
As to helmet, either Ops Core or Team Wendy are fine. The TW do have non standard side rails, so you'll have to account for that. The only stuff I mount on the side rails these days are comms headsets, though there are workarounds for that - so its not really an issue.
There are numerous other newer helmet vendors. I have 3 ops core ( 2 ballistic 1 bump) and one TW (bump). As to mount, either Norotos low sto or wilcox G24. As to bridge, I use Mod Armory IC Bridge (not the cheap one) - which has tons of adjustments. The KACs do too but they tend to wear out faster are more expensive and way harder to find. I have four IC bridges.

Yes, the civ dbal is not good enuff ... no civ 0.7 mW illum is good enuff. And we can't easily buy FP lasers. Buying FP lasers from unknown persons you can't be sure what you are getting and if it is broke or breaks you won't be able to get it repaired as the manufacturers can't (won't) repair them. BUT the VSCELs are taking over. Most are Chinese, the only one I'm 100% sure is not chinese is the BE Meyers MAWLc ... prices on those are well North of $2k and heading fast for $3k.
As people know, I'm pretty much on the "no chinese" bandwagon ... but I've reluctantly learned over the years, that enforcing that 100$ of the time is just not practical.

Used anything from people you don't know/trust these days is risky as there is often little (easy) recourse. I do buy used a lot from people I know however, so its not the used part that is as risky as the "don't know/trust" part.
 
I put this out to a few of our tech reps.

My Pulsar rep just replied:

"With a $15-20k budget for Thermal, I have a few recommendations.

With my experience, having dedicated thermal scanners and weapon sights make life so much easier. Having to mount/unmount an optic can be difficult, especially when moving around in the dark.

A set of Merger LRF XL50 Thermal Binoculars as a scanner would have better image quality with its HD 1024x768 @ 12 µm sensor than the Skeet IR, and you would have the benefit of an integrated laser rangefinder. We also have the Merger LRF XP50 in a 640x480 sensor, which is closer in image quality to the Skeet IR. Now recently, we also came out with the Merger Duo NXP50, also featuring a 640x480 sensor, but instead of an integrated LRF, it incorporates both thermal and digital night vision technology, giving you both detection and identification capabilities in a single unit.

As for weapon-mounted, I've found that people generally like a dedicated riflescope as opposed to a clip-on. People generally have one rig for night hunting anyways. Those that do purchase the clip-ons with the intention of switching between weapon platforms generally end up keeping it on one rifle. For thermal riflescopes, you can't go wrong with the Thermion 2 LRF XP50 Pro or the Thermion 2 LRF XL50 with the HD 1024x768 sensor .

Now if you are dead set on a clip-on thermal, I would recommend the Krypton 2 XG50 Thermal Front Attachment Device, featuring the 640x480 sensor. Now to use the Krypton 2 as a monocular, you'll have to purchase the monocular adapter.

A huge benefit of having dedicated thermal scanners and riflescopes is you can hand off the scanner to a buddy while you use the riflescope. You could essentially equip two people with both thermal and night vision capabilities, with three devices (Merger DUOs, Thermion Riflescope, and a set of NODs)."

I'll update with more as I hear more back
 
I put this out to a few of our tech reps.

My Pulsar rep just replied:

Not trying to be too abrasive, but the OP specifically asked for people NOT to give the category of response you just gave.

“I really want to stick to products that are “military grade” or have been issued. Not interested in imported from china or consumer level products.”

With the notable exception of a few ISIS members and other extremely ghetto self-funded experiments, the products you’re promoting are not considered military grade by anybody. They are the exact definition of “consumer level”.

They are quite reasonable products. Not throwing shade. Just not in the same category at all.
 
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Thanks for the reply gr8fuldoug. I'm not sure where Pulsar fits in the mix of thermals, but I don't believe they are military grade. I am going with a VooDoo S for the thermal. It's a very impressive device by all accounts and Strictly Offensive Kit is hooking me up. Still leaning towards either a PVS 31A, 1531, or possibly a pvs14 with ecoti or TAD for the NV side of the equation, but need to delay a little bit to replenish the change purse. I really appreciate all the great info from everyone thus far!
 
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Ok fellas, just an update on the progess. PVS-31d has arrived via Apollo Optics. Ryan was excellent to deal with and I highly recommend. Strictly Offensive Kit is in the process of getting me a Voodoo s. Preston and Joe have been an absolute wealth of knowledge. Hopefully it arrives soon! I went with an ops core fast bump initially, but sort of wish I went with a ballistic as that’s the end goal. I ordered a Surefire xvl2-irc at my distributor and will hopefully have that soon. My intent is to use that primarily on my pistols and mk18 possibly. My wife is at her limit, but I’m really seeing the need for a full power IR laser/illuminator for the long guns. I believe I can slip one of those in at the last second before the game is over.
 

These have one of the best illuminators, and their laser isn't half bad as well, but they are pigs. Seriously, they are enormous and heavy. It's also a Steiner product, which means they can fail for whatever reason and have its own eccentricities.

Not interested in imported from china or consumer level products.

I would lighten up on this. The LS321 is not bad at all. It's better than an ATPIAL and a fraction of the price of it. Just because it's consumer level, doesn't make it bad. On the flip side of that coin, just because something is "military grade" doesn't make it good. I got issued tons of garbage during my time in Afghanistan/Iraq.
 
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You can find "full power" IR lasers and illuminators for a relatively decent price.
I would recommend something with a co-aligned visible laser which makes sighting in that much easier. Like a PEQ15 or something on that route.

Have fun!
 
Just spent 7 days with the guys at Gunsite for the night vision pistol/carbine. A few observations from the class:

-good choice on the 31Ds. I found dual a lot better than PVS-14 (though I have BNVD-1531). L3 brought a set of GPNVGs out. Wow, but outside your planned budget
- A 0.7 mw "consumer" laser is PLENTY (usually too much) for shooting off carbine. By the second day, we were all trying to scounge ND filters to stop down the bloom (with high quality lasers). Instructor pointed out that a full power laser is really only useful for signaling an aircraft at 30k feet or marking a building miles away. One guy (and the instructor) had the slick setup, a MAWL. Bought one when we got back; lots of switchology but useful in a lot of indoor and outdoor situations.
- Really like my XVL2. Hard to find holsters for it and a gun of choice. Ultimately went with safariland and a 320
- Look at trijicon patrol. Not a clip on but a slick piece of gear
- I have a couple of Ops Core helmets. Stick with bump unless really going into combat. With NODS, battery, light, counterweight it is dam heavy already
- get an IR umbrella light for your helmet (TNVC has) Very useful
 
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Just spent 7 days with the guys at Gunsite for the night vision pistol/carbine. A few observations from the class:

-good choice on the 31Ds. I found dual a lot better than PVS-14 (though I have BNVD-1531). L3 brought a set of GPNVGs out. Wow, but outside your planned budget
- A 0.7 mw "consumer" laser is PLENTY (usually too much) for shooting off carbine. By the second day, we were all trying to scounge ND filters to stop down the bloom (with high quality lasers). Instructor pointed out that a full power laser is really only useful for signaling an aircraft at 30k feet or marking a building miles away. One guy (and the instructor) had the slick setup, a MAWL. Bought one when we got back; lots of switchology but useful in a lot of indoor and outdoor situations.
- Really like my XVL2. Hard to find holsters for it and a gun of choice. Ultimately went with safariland and a 320
- Look at trijicon patrol. Not a clip on but a slick piece of gear
- I have a couple of Ops Core helmets. Stick with bump unless really going into combat. With NODS, battery, light, counterweight it is dam heavy already
- get an IR umbrella light for your helmet (TNVC has) Very useful
Yes, the full power lasers are a bit of overkill. Actually they are.
The full power illuminator however isn't overkill and that is where the full power laser units shine IMO.
 
They aren't on par, but they are WAY better than civ power non-VCSEL units. Honestly, if you're shooting inside of 300m a civ power MAWL or RaidXe is totally adequate. When you get in very dark no-moon conditions they will really feel like full power units. For shooting longer range, say <500m, the FP units start to make more sense but mostly for the IR flood. All of this I'm talking about is for civilian use - we're not marking targets for CAS.
 
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All of this I'm talking about is for civilian use - we're not marking targets for CAS.
I don't do anything without CAS

wf0zb592cjt41.png
 
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Hey Fellas,

Just an update on my whole adventure into the NV and Thermal world. Have just about all of my pieces of the puzzle assembled minus the surefire xvl2. The 2 new additions are the Wilcox Raid XE (FP) and the PoT Voodoo S. Still playing with both and learning a bunch day by day.

Just a quick recap of the kit:
Ops Core fast bump w/ Wilcox G24
PVS-31d
Pixels on Target Voodoo S
MOD Armory bridge mount
Wilcox Raid XE

I'm starting to use them all together and learn the best practices and methods. I'm slow with the transition from NVG to the thermal, so I might need to come up with another piece of kit to fill the gap down the road. I have a feeling an ECOTI or TAD on the 31s would be just what the Dr. ordered. No time soon though, the wife cut me off for a while. Ha

Thanks again for all the advice and help from everyone in the community. Ryan from Apollo Gear and Joe and Preston from Strictly Offensive Kit have been great to work with. As I get more experience with this setup I'll update this thread with some more of my thoughts and opinions. I'm hopefully going to do a NV class this summer and am planning a hog hunt this fall. Here is a pic of the family all together.

IMG_1601.jpeg
 
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