9mm Hardcast Projectiles for Woods Defense

Not going to try and talk you into a caliber debate, but you also need to keep an open mind and consider that the reason you don't hear or see this approach in 9mm is because it is over 100 years old and many folks have tried it before any of us were born... and found it to be ill advised.

The 9mm Luger is not a rimmed design like a revolver. A revolver in this context will run with a heavy roll crimp and since those were revolvers with different characteristics than a semi, that was for both accuracy and to prevent having a wheel lock. Terminal ballistics is cold comfort if there is a failure to fire due to an ammo issue.

Enter the 9mm, and this is a headspace on the mouth round, not on the rim. So, most of the cast bullets for a 9mm will not look like a typical Keith that has the large diameter sharp flat nose and crimp grooves. If a 9mm bullet starts down the road of trying to run something more than a truncated cone, there is the danger of a set-back due to sharp hardcast corners catching on ramps. When this happens, it raises pressure or causes jams. That is a long winded way of telling you that feed reliability in a 9mm is one reason you don't encounter much of what you are wanting to hear.

If you go down this road you will take on lots of testing to learn why the semi-autos run either a large radius or at most a truncated cone with a wadcutter diameter well behind it. Functional reliability and safety against set-back is the main reason. Lots of work goes into defensive hollow point designs to insure the nose doesn't create jams or set-back. The hollow points for hunting and defense and the hardcast hunting designs that work in revolvers are not the same as the ones that work in semi.

For example. On the left is truncated cone for a 9mm, on the right is for a revolver. These are not the same performance but you can get pretty close to what you are asking for and cast and PC coat them yourself, but you will have to work out the seating depth for reliability.


Here is an off-the=shelf option that is already coated.


While you are running your search and testing, I would include some of the Hornady Critical Duty ammo and see how she likes it. Lots of practice with a cheap round nose of the same weight will do what you are asking while you search. If you are dead set against a hollow point, than a cheap plated FMJ should cover her till you find a mold you like. Good Luck in your search and in for the range reports.

treillw said:

Want to load up some 9mm hardcast for woods defense. I prefer handloading, as I can load 300 of them and test them for function at a fraction of the cost of buying premanufactured ammo. 9mm is for my wife - not looking to get into a caliber debate.

Any good sources for wide meplat flat nose extra hard projectiles?

Thanks!

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The best penetrating 9mm loading I have found is the 124 grain Underwood +p+ fmj-fp. Close to 45" of penetration.

However, Rimrock Bullets sells the 147 grain projectle that Buffalo Bore uses for their outdoorsman loading

I don't know what woods defense means in this context but if it is for bear I would suggest reading this article concerning a black bear attack and a 10mm Glock. It reinforces the fact that these are likely to be close encounters and caliber is going to matter.

Interesting video. Ultimately whether it's 9mm or 10mm or 45 or 50 caliber penetration is most definately a requirement. Wound cavity volume is ultimately what typically incapacitates an animal or a human and that translates to caliber. It's ultimately a personal choice.

treillw said:

Want to load up some 9mm hardcast for woods defense. I prefer handloading, as I can load 300 of them and test them for function at a fraction of the cost of buying premanufactured ammo. 9mm is for my wife - not looking to get into a caliber debate.

Any good sources for wide meplat flat nose extra hard projectiles?

Thanks!

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I reload also, and go through roughly 500 rounds per week.
I can appreciate wanting to avoid the cost of factory loaded vs hand loaded.

But I'm only going to use factory loaded defensive +P ammo for defense.
I know it works. And I know that if I ever have to defend my actions in a court of law - that there will be no additional questions about "deadly ammo" - as long as I am buying the same stuff that LE uses.

Pineboard makes a poor example when you are trying to think about stopping a bear.
Perhaps a 10mm with a long barrel and using something like Underwood extreme penetrators or some of the Buffalo Bore hard cast stuff would work better than in the story linked above.

Kind of however makes you think that a medium barrel .44 magnum might do better at not letting the bear try to eat you.

What do you think about when trying to stop a bear?

918v said:

What do you think about when trying to stop a bear?

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I am thinking can I outrun the guy next to me

Well, at point blank the time the bear had to work on him was estimated to be about 20 seconds using 10mm Critical Duty.

He tried to avoid hitting his dogs at first so he took body shots which stung the bear but didn't stop or deter him, then when the bear had him he had to consider his own legs, but one wonders if he had taken more head shots if this would have ended quicker since body and neck shots didn't turn it off quick enough.

This was point blank with a 10mm (thats over 450 ft*lbs) and plenty of hits with ammo that is designed for more penetration than typical hollow points. All food for thought about what a 400 lbs bear is like to stop when it is amped up and in fight mode from being cornered.

The article is vague about the total hits and body shot placement, but it was at least two body hits, plus a point blank neck hit, but importantly what ended it was a point blank head shot.

Will the bear die with upper body and neck shots, yes but clearly it is not quick enough if you are between the bear and it's escape or if it is already pissed off and wants you. It will take a CNS shot to hit the off switch in order to avoid being ripped up for 20 seconds before the bear's blood pressure drops.

The OP is not wanting a caliber or bear anatomy lesson, but what all this shows is that no handgun bullet from a 9mm hitting a 400 lb bear that is in fight mode will work fast enough unless you place the bullet though the spine or brain.

That said, to be of help we need to find his requested 147 grain hardcast flat nose bullet and let him make up his own mind.
This is what he is searching to clone....

What about the Xtreme penetrator copper solids? If I was stuck with 9mm (I carry a G20 with underwood +p hard cast in the woods) I would probably try to make up some of the energy and penetration loss with a different material that Lead. More likely to get through a bears skull, which IMO is the biggest 4 legged threat.

RegionRat said:

Well, at point blank the time the bear had to work on him was estimated to be about 20 seconds using 10mm Critical Duty.

He tried to avoid hitting his dogs at first so he took body shots which stung the bear but didn't stop or deter him, then when the bear had him he had to consider his own legs, but one wonders if he had taken more head shots if this would have ended quicker since body and neck shots didn't turn it off quick enough.

This was point blank with a 10mm (thats over 450 ft*lbs) and plenty of hits with ammo that is designed for more penetration than typical hollow points. All food for thought about what a 400 lbs bear is like to stop when it is amped up and in fight mode from being cornered.

The article is vague about the total hits and body shot placement, but it was at least two body hits, plus a point blank neck hit, but importantly what ended it was a point blank head shot.

Will the bear die with upper body and neck shots, yes but clearly it is not quick enough if you are between the bear and it's escape or if it is already pissed off and wants you. It will take a CNS shot to hit the off switch in order to avoid being ripped up for 20 seconds before the bear's blood pressure drops.

The OP is not wanting a caliber or bear anatomy lesson, but what all this shows is that no handgun bullet from a 9mm hitting a 400 lb bear that is in fight mode will work fast enough unless you place the bullet though the spine or brain.

That said, to be of help we need to find his requested 147 grain hardcast flat nose bullet and let him make up his own mind.
This is what he is searching to clone....
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That said to be of help he wants bullets to load his own not ammo

I'd take the tool I'm most likely to deliver multiple hits to the face / skull with.

Make my woods gun a Glock 34. Hard pass on the blast / flash / recoil of anything bigger.

I don't think there's enough difference between pistol rounds to do anything but make it harder to quickly put shots on target.

If you can copy the buffalo bore loads you're set.

Might be a better place to seek economy than defense ammo. Unless of course you are planning to upgrade your wife anyway.

Not sure what you/she is defending from. Locally it’s mostly dirt balls and copperheads.

Buy some cast for a 38 Super, you can get much heavier projectiles. Then use Vihta Vouri 3N38. I can load 147g to 1,190fps using tht powder. Using 38 Super cast you can get 160g bullets.

DeathBeforeDismount said:

What about the Xtreme penetrator copper solids? If I was stuck with 9mm (I carry a G20 with underwood +p hard cast in the woods) I would probably try to make up some of the energy and penetration loss with a different material that Lead. More likely to get through a bears skull, which IMO is the biggest 4 legged threat.

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What penetration loss?

Rimrock “Outdoorsman” 148grn. is where I’d be.
Been meaning to either grab some of them or just get one of the new Lee 147 molds (I cast as well).
Better to have a stiff loaded small 9mm on your hip than a .45 at home.
A 200 grain hard cast H&G 68 at 900fps will clear both shoulders on a 150lb pig and keep going. Penetration likely won’t be a problem.

Potsy said:

Rimrock “Outdoorsman” 148grn. is where I’d be.
Been meaning to either grab some of them or just get one of the new Lee 147 molds (I cast as well).
Better to have a stiff loaded small 9mm on your hip than a .45 at home.
A 200 grain hard cast H&G 68 at 900fps will clear both shoulders on a 150lb pig and keep going. Penetration likely won’t be a problem.

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What powder are you using to get 200gr to 900fps in a 9mm?

The H&G68 is a .45. Should’ve mentioned that for those that don’t know what an H&G 68 is.

My point with the illustration was, a 147 9mm should penetrate even better.

Ramshot Silhouette would be my go to. Just because I have some in the cabinet.

Phil Shoemaker, famous Alaskan hunting and fishing guide, shot a grizzly at point blank range with the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman using a Glock 43. Six shots, I think all except one went all the way through.

Rimrock provided the bullets to Buffalo Bore, and it’s not hard to replicate Buffalo Bore ballistics.

I carried a Glock 20 with hard cast bullets when I lived in Alaska. I have a Glock 19 now and don’t feel under gunned with a mag fill of rimrock hand-loads.

Less wild bears in Eastern WA. But the liberals sometimes break quarantine from King County, and a 148 rimrock will stop an angry Subaru mid charge.

Or so I’m told.

If I’m fly fishing in heavy brown bear country I carry one of there with 335 grain hard cast bullets. Never really worried about black bears…

This load is for OP’s wife.

Herb Stoner said:

If I’m fly fishing in heavy brown bear country I carry one of there with 335 grain hard cast bullets. Never really worried about black bears…

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So did you read the instruction manual?

I thought that if you had a 9mm and a bear was gnawing on your leg
You used the 9 mm to shoot yourself
Same thing with a brown bear and 44 mag

Im2bent said:

So did you read the instruction manual?

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I would have scanned anything in the box - bought it years ago though. Why?

Herb Stoner said:

I would have scanned anything in the box - bought it years ago though. Why?

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It's a sweet looking revolver but that giant read the manual on the side of the barrel is a bit wtf.

Im2bent said:

It's a sweet looking revolver but that giant read the manual on the side of the barrel is a bit wtf.

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Didn’t see that! Grabbed a pic off the web for the post out of laziness and didn’t see that. Mine is blank on that side of the barrel - no safety warnings on it. The pic must be a new “safer” model. That is very WTF!