FOV issues and patents

Xycod said:

I realize this has been discussed in some detail but this isn’t necessarily about the absurd, imo, patent by a certain company. This is about other companies adhering to it but not giving a disclaimer to potential buyers.

So say I buy a new Schmidt, a zeiss v8, a tt, or some other 3-5k optic expecting it to match their stated claims.

In most cases the specs on their us sites or in their catalog are listed with the exact same specs as they’re listed in Germany, be it in feet fov, apparent, or angular fov. Zeiss list their V8’s as having 24 degree fov’s both on the us website and in us catalogs.

So I spend 4k on optic x expecting a certain fov that’s listed on their site and in their catalog, but I get a neutered altered optic unsuspecting.

So my question is, how is this legal and how can they not let potential buyers know they are altering their products or give some sort of disclaimer.

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If im not mistaken they have different model numbers. Also, to the best of my recollection the companies you've mentioned have done a decent job of marking them appropriately on their websites as well as the vendors. After all, that is how we noticed the fov differences.

Xycod said:

If you go to the Zeiss website or have one of their physical catalogs the numbers are the same for both the US and German models, yet the imported US model scope has a much smaller 21/22 degree fov or lower apparent while the exact same scope in Europe has a true 24 apparent, but the numbers are the same. You can actually see the reticle going past/into the field stop to where the actual field stop should be on the us model.

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Every once in a while I catch a company with the scopes not matching public specs. I point it out. Some companies fix the specs. Some companies mumble something and ignore it completely.
Drives me up the wall, but noone else cares all that much.

ILya

Xycod said:

If you go to the Zeiss website or have one of their physical catalogs the numbers are the same for both the US and German models, yet the imported US model scope has a much smaller 21/22 degree fov or lower apparent while the exact same scope in Europe has a true 24 apparent, but the numbers are the same. You can actually see the reticle going past/into the field stop to where the actual field stop should be on the us model.

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Since you did not mention what particular Ziess scopes I have to assume you are referring to S3 and/or S5 since we are on Snipers Hide after all. I just looked at all of them on Ziess's website and they all have less than 23 degree Afov listed(assuming i mathed correctly). I can't find what you are talking about. Any chance you can screen shot what you are referring to?

Does TT 7-35 have a FOV limiter?

918v said:

Does TT 7-35 have a FOV limiter?

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That's a tricky question as fov is almost always limited or "stopped down". If you are asking if it abides by the swaro patent....yes it does. I believe it sits at around 21.5 degree AFOV but that number is off memory. I could be a little off.

As far as I know there is only one version of the tt7-35 regarding fov.

Xycod said:

Not sure how so many get around the patent, scopes like Steiner’s Predator 4’s , pst gen ii’s and razors, nf nx8’s and atcar’s, the Burris xtr iii’ all have huge apparent 24 degree fov’s yet some of the best most expensive glass in the world are adhering to it.

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I think many of the scopes made in Asia just flat out ignore the patent. TT/ZCO/S&B/Kahles use European glass I think.

NateVA said:

I think many of the scopes made in Asia just flat out ignore the patent.

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This is my assumption as well.

NateVA said:

TT/ZCO/S&B/Kahles use European glass I think.

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That is correct.

918v said:

Does TT 7-35 have a FOV limiter?

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Hard to say, I am assuming TT designed this to be in compliance with the patent. The 5-25 was grandfathered which is why it has wider FOV. That said the FOV of the TT 7-35 is not bad and overall the scope offers an incredible experience, in fact, I can safely say it is the best optical-mechanical experience I’ve had behind a long range scope, even better than 5-25; however 5-25 is also phenomenal so if you don’t “need” 7-35 then no need to upgrade IMO. For long range dynamic shooting the 5-25 is more than adequate even with ELR, but for short range dynamic shooting like NRL22 and similar comps I can see the 7-35 being the better choice.

You know, I just remembered something that may be relevant re: a second reason why Asian-made scope manufacturers can get away with ignoring #FOVgate

Sometime ago, I read somewhere that Swarovski has a lock on lens coatings in Europe. I’m not sure if it’s because of various patents or because only they just have the technological prowess or capital.

Anyway, if this is still true, this would give them enormous leverage over any scope manufacture that wishes to use them for lens coatings.

An assumption I’m making is that the Asian manufactures (including Japan, obviously) use different, non-German lens coating factories.

So, the only recourse for Swarovski in Asian-made cases is to litigate in court. And since Swaro doesn’t think of Vortex, March, etc. as competitors they don’t want to risk losing the court battle (they are 1-1 in court at this point).

That last sentence above is the first reason why we at the Hide think Swaro ignores the Asian scope, manufactures.

Just random musings.

Can someone post a link to the details of this paten issue? I've seen some references to it but no nothing of the details.

Jefe's Dope said:

Can someone post a link to the details of this paten issue? I've seen some references to it but no nothing of the details.

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Short version: Swarovski holds a patent for scopes with a certain combination of specs, the pertinent ones being an erector ratio of 5x or more combined with a reversal element in the lens system combined with an apparent FOV of 22 degrees or greater.


Leica challenged the patent in Europe and got it overturned, but they didn't challenge the patent in the US market, which is why S&B lists a much wider FOV for their new scopes in the European market but those same models sold in the US are limited to just under 22 degrees AFOV. So far S&B is the only manufacturer advertising these differences.

Some manufacturers appear to be complying with the patent in the US but their spec sheets are incorrect, while others like the new TT 7-35 advertise just under 22 degrees AFOV, possibly for patent compliance, whereas the older TT 5-25 has a wider AFOV than the new 7-35.