My apologies for not being clear, I’m shooting factory ammo.
- Thread starter padom
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My apologies for not being clear, I’m shooting factory ammo.
Consistent sub 0.5" groups at 100yds? What are they doing at distance? 300yd? 500yd?
Yea, consistent sub at 100, I’ve only been out to 567 and 900 briefly due to weather but it shoot good at those distances.
Interesting thread, with a lot of information. Thanks to Padom and others for posting all the information.
Just pulled the trigger on an Origin action and LH gain twist barrel in .224V. It'll be interesting to see how it handles the longer bullets (perhaps with less deformation?) and it's effects on accuracy.
Just pulled the trigger on an Origin action and LH gain twist barrel in .224V. It'll be interesting to see how it handles the longer bullets (perhaps with less deformation?) and it's effects on accuracy.
What reamer is being used? Freebore? Without .110-.115 freebore, that bullets gonna be way down in the case taking up case capacity which in turn means pressure early.
Right now, I had planned on the SAAMI one, but after reading this thread, I'm beginning to wonder. The barreled action hasn't been made yet (still gotta do the 10 day Kalifornia wait, then send the action back to MHS for the barrel and accouterments).
I'm definitely in the camp of "the bullet base should whenever possible not go below the neck/shoulder junction" logic. Even in the 6.5CM I cringe when the 140's have to be seated deep into the powder column. I'll shoot you a PM with a few other questions...
John @ Keystone has been shooting the 90's in .224 for many many years and has lots of experience with them. He said he started out shooting them with a 6.5twist but went to a 7twist cause of issues.
I havent had any issues out to 700 with both 7 and 7.5 twist with heavies. Amazing accuracy.
I wonder if the 6.5 twist was deforming the long bullets as they'd hit the rifling...
I got back out today to shoot the CFE223 seating depth test with the 88 ELD-M's. They did fantastic. CFE223 is working out much better than H4895 with the heavies in this 26" bolt gun in both accuracy and SD's.
These 88 ELD's are running great but the velocity isnt what I wanted to see. These little cases just cant take anymore powder unless you want to trash brass. I wouldnt run over 26.5gr and thats getting sticky on the bolt.
Here's 10 foulers at 100yds I shot before doing the seating depth test. Nothing to complain about there..
Here is the 88 ELD / CFE 223 seating depth test. Suprising how with this powder the barrel wasnt picky with 88's seating depth. They all shot really good. That last group I pulled that last shot right. Guy next to me was blasting off a AR10 and pulled just before I did. Looks good though. Really solid load with great accuracy and SD's.
These 88 ELD's are running great but the velocity isnt what I wanted to see. These little cases just cant take anymore powder unless you want to trash brass. I wouldnt run over 26.5gr and thats getting sticky on the bolt.
Here's 10 foulers at 100yds I shot before doing the seating depth test. Nothing to complain about there..
Here is the 88 ELD / CFE 223 seating depth test. Suprising how with this powder the barrel wasnt picky with 88's seating depth. They all shot really good. That last group I pulled that last shot right. Guy next to me was blasting off a AR10 and pulled just before I did. Looks good though. Really solid load with great accuracy and SD's.
I'm curious... why just below the neck/shoulder junction, rather than ahead of it? IIRC, having the boat-tail/bearing surface junction on the bullet about 30 thou ahead of the neck/shoulder junction completely avoids any potential issues with donuts that may form in the course of (re)sizing the cases. Is there not enough room in the magazines to seat the bullet out that far, or not enough bearing surface in the neck, or something else?
Very interesting project, regardless. I always fancied a fast-twist .22-250 AI, but never got around to building one. This... might something I actually do
Used mine but Keystone has it now. Call and tell them you want Dominic's 224V bolt gun reamer
Here are the results from shooting 6x6 @ 100yds with both ammo types @bgavin sent to me. I want everyone to understand before seeing the results the following. This ammo was not designed for a bolt gun with long internal mag capacity. It was not designed for a longer freebore reamer that utilizes the longer bolt gun magazine capacity and maximizes case capacity. This ammo was designed for gassers using the SAMI reamer.
These results were exactly as I suspected. Slow, and not nearly as accurate as handloads due to the mile long jump these bullets are making to the lands in this dedicated 224V bolt gun setup for long heavies....
A word of advice, if you plan to build a 224V bolt gun to shoot factory ammo only, I suggest you purchase or have a barrel spun up using a SAMMI spec reamer that this ammo was designed around. If you want to get the most out of the 224V round in a bolt gun, go with a customer reamer like mine to take full advantage of the round in a bolt gun and be prepared to handload.
Federal American Eagle 75gr - 2990 ES 51 SD 12.7
Hornady Match 88gr ELD Match - 2739 ES 72 SD 16.6
You can see this ammo really wants to group but its just not at the optimal distance to the lands to group tightly, especially that 88 ELD-Match. If you scroll up you will see my 88 ELD-M handloads that are optimized for this reamer are moving at 2800 with 5 shot groups in the 0.3's and single digit SD's..for comparison
These results were exactly as I suspected. Slow, and not nearly as accurate as handloads due to the mile long jump these bullets are making to the lands in this dedicated 224V bolt gun setup for long heavies....
A word of advice, if you plan to build a 224V bolt gun to shoot factory ammo only, I suggest you purchase or have a barrel spun up using a SAMMI spec reamer that this ammo was designed around. If you want to get the most out of the 224V round in a bolt gun, go with a customer reamer like mine to take full advantage of the round in a bolt gun and be prepared to handload.
Federal American Eagle 75gr - 2990 ES 51 SD 12.7
Hornady Match 88gr ELD Match - 2739 ES 72 SD 16.6
You can see this ammo really wants to group but its just not at the optimal distance to the lands to group tightly, especially that 88 ELD-Match. If you scroll up you will see my 88 ELD-M handloads that are optimized for this reamer are moving at 2800 with 5 shot groups in the 0.3's and single digit SD's..for comparison
Thanks padom for taking the time to do this. This is exactly the info I was looking for.
I've been wanting to do a valkyrie with a origin and get a gm barrel from keystone but was worried with all the different reamers out there. I want to be able to shoot factory ammo. I reload some for my 6.5 but just don't have the time for it some weeks, much less another rifle or caliber.
This rifle will be used to get my daughter to the range with me. She's 7 and tiny so thinking my 6.5 is a little much but a semi-heavy 224 would be a good option to step up from my old 10/22 she's been shooting.
Thanks again
I've been wanting to do a valkyrie with a origin and get a gm barrel from keystone but was worried with all the different reamers out there. I want to be able to shoot factory ammo. I reload some for my 6.5 but just don't have the time for it some weeks, much less another rifle or caliber.
This rifle will be used to get my daughter to the range with me. She's 7 and tiny so thinking my 6.5 is a little much but a semi-heavy 224 would be a good option to step up from my old 10/22 she's been shooting.
Thanks again
Now's the time to order that Green Mountain from Keystone! They just announced their .224 barrel sale that runs Memorial Day Weekend.
Tell them you want their SAMMI spec reamer since your using factory ammo and NOT the .110fb reamer.
So if you are doing long handloads with a custom chamber, what is the main draw - cheap and available brass?
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea- but isn't it a wildcat cartridge at this point- and there are a lot of 224 wildcats out there that will be more forgiving or capable?
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea- but isn't it a wildcat cartridge at this point- and there are a lot of 224 wildcats out there that will be more forgiving or capable?
Cheap, available brass and barrel life is the 2 main reasons. I had a bunch of requests so that's the main reason I am doing the review. 22cm for example uses 18-20gr more powder, 1/3 barrel life and way more recoil.
Now I'm sold on the 220TB. Best of them all if you ask me. Throwing 90smk at 3075 single digit SD's, tight tiny groups, 29-31gr of powder, virtually no recoil. Hornady brass. 2500-3500 rd barrel life.
Will get in on the sale at keystone. Thanks for the heads up.
They have a description on their site.
I’m an idiot. Had no idea tb was thunderbolt. That’s a very interesting cartridge. Hijack over.
Thanks for all the good info in here. I’ve been wanting one of these, just haven’t scrounged up the money for one. Still holding my breath Howa will do a barreled action
Thanks for all the good info in here. I’ve been wanting one of these, just haven’t scrounged up the money for one. Still holding my breath Howa will do a barreled action
all of this just makes me want to double down on a bolt gun in 224 . yea more toys and choices and another scope / bi pod good to see others using and enjoying this round , thank you for the information .
I think @padom is on the right track. For 22 Cal's, the 224V and 220TB are the perfect set of options.
Need factory ammo? Get a 224V with factory reamer.
Handload and Need a bit more punch without a barrel every 1200 rounds (i.e. 22 Creed )? Get a 220TB.
For PRS shooters, the speed limit favors the 220TB. Pushing 88/90s at 3000-3100 easily will be easy on the barrel, wallet and provide great round as trainer/local match gun.
224V does the same thing (though a bit slower ) but has the added barrel life and *hopefully* continued support from ammo manufacturers.
On the plus side, since the 224V and 220TB share the same bolt face, it would be easy to rebarrel and switch between the two cartridges in the future.
Good work Dom!
Need factory ammo? Get a 224V with factory reamer.
Handload and Need a bit more punch without a barrel every 1200 rounds (i.e. 22 Creed )? Get a 220TB.
For PRS shooters, the speed limit favors the 220TB. Pushing 88/90s at 3000-3100 easily will be easy on the barrel, wallet and provide great round as trainer/local match gun.
224V does the same thing (though a bit slower ) but has the added barrel life and *hopefully* continued support from ammo manufacturers.
On the plus side, since the 224V and 220TB share the same bolt face, it would be easy to rebarrel and switch between the two cartridges in the future.
Good work Dom!
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Just got tracking yesterday from Frank, donated Bartlein barrel for the review is in the way.
We will see how many rounds we get out of the button and the bartlein in both the 224 Valkyrie and 220 Thunderbolt. And see if there are any speed differences.
Here is a good recipe I came up with for my 224 valk AR with 22" ARP barrel. It will get the heavy 95 SMK out there fast. PP 2000 MR--bout the best powder I've come across for 90+ gr bullets.
So far so good, as long as you stay within the limitations of the cartridge. In my findings that's about 2800. Otherwise you can go faster but you're blowing primer Pockets out and Brass life goes to shit
Did a little load confirmation today with the 88 ELD-M / 26.1gr CFE223 load today using the data from my seating depth test.
I loaded up 20rd each of both the 1.816" and 1.833" rounds to test since they both shot pretty darn good during the seating depth test. I selected the 1.833" base to ogive as my optimal seating depth but wanted to test the 1.816" for the hell of it. Of course, the 1.833" rounds shot the best.
I shot a 5 shot group of each at 100yd then shot 2 steel swingers at 635yd. A 6" and a 3". They both did well on the 6" but the 1.833" rounds didnt miss a beat on the 3" and it was a gusty ass day out there today. I was very impressed. About a 30F degree difference today than when I developed these loads and no issues with the load...
I loaded up 20rd each of both the 1.816" and 1.833" rounds to test since they both shot pretty darn good during the seating depth test. I selected the 1.833" base to ogive as my optimal seating depth but wanted to test the 1.816" for the hell of it. Of course, the 1.833" rounds shot the best.
I shot a 5 shot group of each at 100yd then shot 2 steel swingers at 635yd. A 6" and a 3". They both did well on the 6" but the 1.833" rounds didnt miss a beat on the 3" and it was a gusty ass day out there today. I was very impressed. About a 30F degree difference today than when I developed these loads and no issues with the load...
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Shot my big horn 224 valk with criterion prefit 1:7 MTU prefit 26" saami chamber. MDT 6BR mags and krg bravo stock. Couldn't get it too shoot consistently. Best 3 shot group was 0.22 MOA with the 90 SMK over 25 grains of CFE223. Worst was like 3 MOA. 75 grain american eagle shot like crap. ELD M shot anywhere from 0.3 to 2 MOA for 5 shots. 80 SMK best 3 shot was 0.5 MOA and worse was again around 3 MOA. Not sure what to think.
i've been running the 88's in my 223 at 2900 with 2000mr. accuracy has been good and speeds consistent. might give it a try in your valkyrie
I'll give it a try. This is my first time using cfe 223. I know I don't like how fine it is. I have quite a few groups (I shot 99 rounds lol) that are very tiny. It's almost like something was loose but I can't find anything that is. Actually the cheek rest on the bravo was but I have it all the way down so, who knows. I'll try again and see what happens then make a change.
Also another question. I don't have a big torque wrench, just fix it sticks for the action screws and scope mounting etc. I used the appropriate torque on the base rail that came with the origin (did not loctite but will now) and torqued the seekins rings to spec and did not use loctite because they said not to. Action screws torqued to spec , again no loctite.
The barrel is "snug" per Zermatt arms in another thread here on the origin. I have no idea what the torque is set at. The instructions say 40-70 ft lbs. I simply pulled down on a 1-1/8 inch wrench on the barrel nut until the barrel spun in the vise. After it started spinning I put the head space gauges in to confirm I was where I needed to be and that was that. Could it be too loose and that cause inconsistency?
If it's good I'm about 50 thousand off the lands I found out tonight with the 90s. I'll load them longer next outing.
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I used a Criterion with a Bighorn on my Howa. It does need a bit more torque than perhaps you've given it. Depending on how snug your barrel was in vice, you may not have as much torque as you thought.
I'd suggest getting a torque wrench (like the Tekton 20-150ftlb version) and a crow foot wrench (Criterion sells them I believe) and torquing to 60-80ftlbs.
It helped my Howa significantly. Was grouping around an 1"-1.5" and then after torquing, dropped to .3-.5".
Recommended Torque for nuts is 35lb and shouldered 70lbs... If your barrel was spinning in your vice it probably isnt that tight but only way to know is with a torque wrench. A piece of leather wrapped around the barrel and then tightened in your vice should keep it from spinning....otherwise a viper barrel vice for $60 is all you need for nut and shoulder barrel installs
Probably a good idea, if even for my peace of mind. I also found some info saying the 90 grainers like to be closer to the lands than I had them. Will try both things before my next outing.
Did you do a load workup for each bullet? Pick one bullet, 88 eld would be my choice and do a load workup and find the center of the node. Then do a seating depth test to shrink groups....
I have the viper. I will try the leather trick, the toilet paper cardboard wasn't cutting it. Also read that the 90s may like a bit less jump than I was giving them.
I have 500 of the 90s so I'll use those up first. I did get a few really tiny groups, so there's some hope.
Wait you have the viper and the barrel was spinning??
I've used a viper for years.. never once had a barrel spin when applying up to 75 ft lbs.. if you have that barreled completely tightened down in the viper and the barrel is spinning you have way more than 80 ft lbs on that nut...
Tiny groups mean nothing and is the big mistake most make when working up a load.
Go find the center of the node using an OCW then worry about group size with a seating depth test. I think your worrying about something too soon. Your barrel torque is fine, go do a load workup.
Yep. I used a 3/4 inch box end wrench to tighten the nuts on the vice to what I thought was pretty tightthen I used a 1-1/8 box end wrench to tighten the nut.
It's working well for me so far, I may try ocw at some point. I always take the 100 yard group out to at least 850 to make sure it's still good. If it's less than 3/4 MOA at that range it's good enough for me.
Based off your post that started us giving you help its obviously not working for you. Or had things changed and your now getting consistent, accurate groups?
With other guns (two others), I mean. I load 6 rounds of each charge weight and shoot two 3 shot groups, usually, .2 or.3 grains apart. The tightest ones win and then i shoot them at long range. I won't get to shoot the 224v again til later this week at the earliest. I just now loaded 50 rounds of 90 SMK .03" longer than last time with the same 25.1 grains of CFE 223. Yesterday's results were with a jump of over 50 thou now I'm jumping about 20 thou instead to see if it makes a difference. The 90's touch the lands at a coal of about 2.34".
I'm not going to mess with the barrel, based on what you said about the viper.
Where are you getting 25.1gr from???
With with sammi chamber 2.28" was optimal seating depth with 88 ELD's for me. 25.6gr was center of the node for me with 88 ELD's in a sammi chamber.. 25.2gr was my scatter.
That's the charge that performed the best in the previous development. First 3 shot group was .3" and the second .7". It is also coincidentally the max charge in the Sierra manual but that's for a coal of 2.26 of course.
This is also only the third rifle I've loaded for. The 243 and 6CM were effortless. This is my first attempt at troubleshooting.
