- Thread starter padom
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Then read Dan Newberrys OCW.... those 3 groups have consistent POI. The middle charge of those 3 is the center of your node.
That finally makes since for an OCW. First time I’ve seen in explained that way. Thanks @Subwrx300.
OCW works awesome when you understand it. Great graphic to explain the difference!
Could be, I guess if it is I'll learn the hard way. I've done it this way up til now with great success: http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev
Luckily the 224 valk barrel is supposed to last a long time ?
I do similar "ladder tests" ....but 5 shots each load, and use a Magnetospeed Riflekuhl to more quckly reduce barrel temp. I find I can often shoot a good 3-shot group with a decent load. But only a great load can be shot 5 times and get a good group.
Once I find my node, I come back a differnet day to try to repeat it. That might be problematic, if atmospherics are significantly different, but then again.... I can't really wait till everything is perfect to shoot.
Yeah, maybe I have had beginner's luck til now. One range trip and 35 rounds with my first precision gun in 243 to find a great load and two trips and maybe 60 rounds in my RPR in 6CM. And the rpr would have been one trip if I wasn't having some serious magazine issues.
I found a great load in 338 Norma in under 50 rounds. 6.5 CM took prolly 200 rounds (found a low velocity node quickly. High velocity node took longer) My AR15? I sold it after some 500 rounds being unable to find a good load. (That may have to do with me wanting bolt gun precision out of a gas gun.... or other personal inadequacies)
Yep, that's why I decided to start with bolt actions and then move to semi auto after I got some reloading experience with them first. People really struggle with the AR platform, especially in say a non 223 cartridge like the Valkyrie. Quality barrels also help, but in my Valkyrie case it looks like the criterion prefit is not able to compensate for my or other inadequacies.
Best graphic I’ve seen to get the point across to people who are more visually oriented and not so much with the logical words thing.
I couldnt consistently keep my AR under half an inch at 100 yds. Anywhere from 0.45 - 0.75"... not sure if thats fundamentals sucking, as I use the same exaggerated fundamentals for both.
Dont know what more I could do for gas guns. Best guess? My follow thru is good, but my shouldering the gun is prolly off.
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Generally speaking, it's the indian, not the arrow. Most AR's are fairly accurate (like near bolt gun accuracy, and in some cases, better). Poor trigger control and follow through are killers with a semi-auto. Any deficiencies in these two things and a semi-auto will amplify it.
Go look at the accuracy some of the guys shooting NRA high power get out of their AR's.
Better yet, go pull butts for a Marine Divisional or Intramural match during a rapid fire stage. You'd be surprised at how small some of the groups are at 200 or 300 yds...with iron sights.
With semi-autos fundamentals matter a whole lot more than with a bolt. A bolt gun let's you get sloppy if you're not careful.
Go look at the accuracy some of the guys shooting NRA high power get out of their AR's.
Better yet, go pull butts for a Marine Divisional or Intramural match during a rapid fire stage. You'd be surprised at how small some of the groups are at 200 or 300 yds...with iron sights.
With semi-autos fundamentals matter a whole lot more than with a bolt. A bolt gun let's you get sloppy if you're not careful.
I don't hang around with a lot of what would be considered professional shooters, e.g. military sharpshooters and the like.
As such I've rarely / never seen a civilian match bolt gun accuracy with a gas gun.
And I've heard very knowledgeable people say there is an inherent inaccuracy to the Gas gun as its semi auto function begins while the bullet is still in the barrel.
Yes I know people argue that, but logically a Gas gun has to begin its cycle with the bullet still in the barrel because once the bullet leaves the barrel, the whole system depressurizes and cannot function. And if the gun begins to cycle with the bullet still in the barrel it is producing movement that no shooter no matter how professional can eliminate every single time.
But yes.. .generally, it's the Indian not the arrow. A quality semi auto can out perform what 99% of shooters are able to do
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Well, now I have a different problem lol. Not sure how I managed to do this a couple times before with the Savage as everything went smoothly. Tightened the barrel vice enough to where the barrel doesn't spin but now the action just spins with the nut. Torque wrench doesn't work because I can't find an extension long enough so that the torque wrench will clear the barrel. I seriously doubt there is 35 ft lbs of torque on the nut before the action starts to spin with it. Just sitting in a chair I can use a couple fingers to lift on a box end wrench and the action spins. I don't remember having this happen before.
Edit: I put the action in a regular vise and wrapped it in leather and gave it a tug. Torque value unknown still. The crow extension flare wrench suggested by big Horn does not clear the barrel with two different torque wrenches I used, just in case anyone was wondering.
Edit: I put the action in a regular vise and wrapped it in leather and gave it a tug. Torque value unknown still. The crow extension flare wrench suggested by big Horn does not clear the barrel with two different torque wrenches I used, just in case anyone was wondering.
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Huh??
You should have 2 wrenches....action wrench and barrel.nut wrench...you turn the action till it contacts the go gauge. Now pull the barrel nut wrench and action wrench in opposite directions till you have 35 ft lbs on the nut....make sure the nut is hand tight against the action before attempting to tighten and I hold the action solid and torque the nut so I'm not changing headspace
There shouldnt be any way for the nut to spin if your doing this properly
LOL. forgot about the action wrench. I have to dig up that action wrench. So last time I did it on my Savage the set up was different. I didn't have my viper barrel vise. I put the barrel in a vise with some soft jaws and then used a wrench on the nut and the action wrench behind it and tightened like you said. I guess I'm losing it. We'll, this suggests to me torque may have been the problem after all. Now to find the action wrench.
Not trying to be a dick here, but should you really be setting headspace on a barrel? Based off your comments, I'm a little concerned you may be over your head here....
Fair question, I grew up playing video games lol. But I've done it several times before. My first attempt on a Savage 243 ended up great first try. Safe and sub 1/2 MOA out to 850 yards. I'm using go/ no go gauges of course.
In that vein though is it ok to pad the action in a regular bench vise to keep it from moving and then tighten the barrel nut or do you have to have the action wrench? Can't immediately remember where it is.
Assuming you're barrel is in a vise, and it does not spin, you don't really need the action wrench for installing a barrel.
There are many ways to skin this cat. It varies based on what is being held in a static position; the action or the barrel. This is where I think you are getting confused.
There are many ways to skin this cat. It varies based on what is being held in a static position; the action or the barrel. This is where I think you are getting confused.
That makes sense. I remember when I bought the wrench from Northland shooter supply they said it had a notch for the recoil lug. They said that without the wrench I could twist the action. But then I read online that people were putting metal bars through older weaker actions to use as counterforce and that's how they were ruining them.
Hey @padom , is keystones 224v reamer open to the public or should I be paying you royalties?
Its my reamer, but if you order through keystone it will be available.
I just posted a 224V savage small shank with my long freebore reamer in the FS section if your looking for one fast
I'd like to go with a shouldered prefit, but if you had said you would like to trade a origin 6.8 bolt head for a .308 bolt head that may be a different story.... although I dont really see a down side in having both. Thanks though!
Mini update to my difficulties to my 224 bolt gun's wild inaccuracies. Confirmed it is not me and is either the criterion prefit or the round's pickiness. Keeping every other variable constant, I screwed on a shouldered prefit 6.5 CM from PVA (bolt head swap from Big Horn obviously as well). Within 30 rounds I had a load shooting sub 1/2 moa consistently (10 shot group) with no messing with seating depths. 130 grain TMK with 42.8 grains of h4350, lapua brass.
I went through an entire pound of cfe 223 with the valkyrie barrel. 80 smk, 90 smk, and 88 eldm, all wildly inaccurate. Ordered some power pro 2000 and we'll see if that powder fairs any better. If that fails I'll send the barrel back to NSS. I'm sure they'll say it's fine but whatever. I like reloading but I'm not going to shoot something that is that picky.
I went through an entire pound of cfe 223 with the valkyrie barrel. 80 smk, 90 smk, and 88 eldm, all wildly inaccurate. Ordered some power pro 2000 and we'll see if that powder fairs any better. If that fails I'll send the barrel back to NSS. I'm sure they'll say it's fine but whatever. I like reloading but I'm not going to shoot something that is that picky.
Try the 2000MR with the 95 SMK's--I was getting the necessary velocities (and stellar accuracy at my shorter test ranges) to stay supersonic out to 1300 yds in my 22" AR barrel (though never actually fired it that far). Even in my gas gun I was getting SD's around the 5 fps range for 4 to 5 shot groups. Using a bolt gun you have a huge advantage I would think.
I did thousands of reloads for the 224V went it first came out--something I realized after a while is that the longish high sectional density bullets in 224 were, in my opinion, running up against the physical limitations of what the exceedingly long nose sections of the bullets could tolerate--mostly just super-thin soft copper. This makes it hard for non-tipped bullets to resist deformation in seating and chambering. 88elds (which weren't out when the 224v first was introduced) are notable in that they don't mind jump to lands and get some semblance of consistency across different charge weights.
I did thousands of reloads for the 224V went it first came out--something I realized after a while is that the longish high sectional density bullets in 224 were, in my opinion, running up against the physical limitations of what the exceedingly long nose sections of the bullets could tolerate--mostly just super-thin soft copper. This makes it hard for non-tipped bullets to resist deformation in seating and chambering. 88elds (which weren't out when the 224v first was introduced) are notable in that they don't mind jump to lands and get some semblance of consistency across different charge weights.
I built one on an impact action and one on a Bighorn. Impact has a 1-7 twist Bartlein and the Bighorn has a 1-6.5 Krieger. Both 26". Long story short I worked up loads for the 95 gr Sierras and the 1-7 shot more accurately. I am running Starline brass, 450 primer, 27 gr of RL17 .010 off and getting 5 rounds touching 0.3-0.25" groups running 2750 fps.
The 88 gr ELDMs wouldn't perform reliably past 1000 to 1100 for me. The 95 gr Sierras perform out to 1400 (farthest my range goes)
The 88 gr ELDMs wouldn't perform reliably past 1000 to 1100 for me. The 95 gr Sierras perform out to 1400 (farthest my range goes)
Why go 220TB when you can go 22BR? The 22BR shoots 88s and 90s at over 3000fps easily and you also have long lasting lapua brass.
22BR and 220TB run roughly the same velocities. 220TB feeds very well from magazines. 6BR used to have problems feeding, not sure if that's been eliminated. I ordered a Valkyrie and Thunderbolt prefit from Keystone so I'm somewhat biased.
Thought I'd throw out some of the info I've gathered.
Same Smith, blank mfg and reamer.
I got the 80gr ELDm up to 2940 and on a decent node with h4895
I ran a seating depth test and lost about 50fps but the group still was under 1/2". I'll probably run powder back up to the 2950 area and see what happens.
Next my load with the 80.5gr Berger fullbore was showing promise with the starting load @ 23.5gr (only 2727fps)
I found the same velocity (2950 fps)had a decent node so anticipating the velocity drop with the seating depth test I bumped the charge up. This time the velocity dropped 120 fps so I will have to run that charge up too but still a promising group with decent SD/ES numbers.
Pulled one pretty bad.
Definatly a 1/2" gun on any given day and with the right load this thing hammers.
Same Smith, blank mfg and reamer.
I got the 80gr ELDm up to 2940 and on a decent node with h4895
I ran a seating depth test and lost about 50fps but the group still was under 1/2". I'll probably run powder back up to the 2950 area and see what happens.
Next my load with the 80.5gr Berger fullbore was showing promise with the starting load @ 23.5gr (only 2727fps)
I found the same velocity (2950 fps)had a decent node so anticipating the velocity drop with the seating depth test I bumped the charge up. This time the velocity dropped 120 fps so I will have to run that charge up too but still a promising group with decent SD/ES numbers.
Pulled one pretty bad.
Definatly a 1/2" gun on any given day and with the right load this thing hammers.
