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Rifle Scopes Comparative Review of NF ATACR 7-35 vs Razor Gen II 4.5-27 and S+B PMii

Tomokochan

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Minuteman
Feb 13, 2017
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Comparing the ATACR F1 and the SB PMII, there is no reason to spend the extra money on the SB unless you want to be able to say you have one. There is no difference in the glass and in fact, the NF might be a little better.
 
I think to my eye the S+B was a touch better than the NF but it was so close that someone could easily choose NF over S+B. Where my S+B Pmii drops points is on turrets and the unnecessary loss of space by adding the third turret for the illumination control.
 
"One of the things that I see NF still using and, to me it is annoying, is a process that means the entire ocular turns when the mag ring is turned. I consider this a demerit and puts NF back of the pack in this regard. Time for a change NF."

Amen. The is one of the main reasons I haven't tried a Nightforce yet (the first was reticles. But new Mil-C addressed that). I'm sorry, but with a lens cap on there, rotating the entire ocular is a huge pain in the ass. I tried a friend's once and it just got in the way. In the wrong position it can even prevent the bolt from cycling properly. How do you shoot a match with that? You have to go from 12x to 25x during a coarse of fire and suddenly your scope cover is in the way of your bolt or your weak eye. And if you have to rotate the ocular in such a way that puts the open flap of the cap at the 6:00 position, then you actually can't even rotate the mag ring because the cap is hitting the stock and preventing your from doing it until you reach up and adjust the flap with one hand while you rotate the mag ring with the other. No bueno, Nightforce.
 
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I also actually prefer the ocular moving because during a high stress situation or a quick hunting scenario grabbing the whole thing while looking down the scope is easier than searching for the mag ring while down the scope.


Covert is as Covert does.

Plenty of good feedback on the scout site.
 
  • Price High to Low – NF- Vortex -S+B
Where are you getting a S&B for less than the vortex? Serious question since I missed out on the opticsplanlet deal.
 
  • Price High to Low – NF- Vortex -S+B
Where are you getting a S&B for less than the vortex? Serious question since I missed out on the opticsplanlet deal.

These are Canadian numbers and I did get a good deal on my S+B last year. MSRP in Canada is as follows NF C$4600 Vortex C$4500 ( Just checked it has gone to C$4999 !! ) and S+B $4150. Street prices vary but the list I gave ATACR 7-35 F1, Razor II 4.5-27 and S+B PMii 5-25 remains accurate to the best of my knowlege and is my personal experience having bought each of the scopes.
 
So did the NF have a Canadian LEO discount?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nightforce doesn't have a Nightforce Canada but thru the authorized dealer I dealt with I got enough off Canadian MSRP to make me happy.
 
Very nice. How long until you review the Kahles.

I hope shoot over the next two weekends and then write it up so about three weeks or so. I can say this already after a 'glassing afternoon' with scope mounted but no shooting: Glass very, very close to S+B and reticle (SKMR3) as nice as or maybe even better than the EBR 2C that I am so very fond of so that is hugely promising and I am pretty excited to get behind it for the shooting testing.
 
How did you find the FOV at 7x on the NF? Was it pretty slim?



I recently bought a new NF ATACR 7-35x56 F1 and so I figured I would see how it stacked up against the Vortex Razor II's I own and the venerable S+B Pmii. For those who like a longish read ( lots of pics tho ) I posted my thoughts here:

[video]https://rifletalk.org/2017/03/04/comparative-review-nf-atacr-f1-7-35x56-vs-vortex-razor-hd-ii-4-5-27x56-vs-sb-pmii-5-25x56/[/video]

All the glass is mine (no loaners) and it is one guys opinion.

Cheers,

Bob




Covert is as Covert does.

Plenty of good feedback on the scout site.
 
Great review, love both my ATACR F1 and Razor G2.. Both are excellent scopes, never owned a Schmidt.. Now you need a Minox to review along side the Kahles, that would be another good review.. Thanks
 
If NF or Vortex made a reticle I liked, I'd love to save some money. They're excellent scopes. Don't really give up much if anything to an S&B, which is still what I use, though I'm tempted to look at the Minox.
 
If NF or Vortex made a reticle I liked, I'd love to save some money. They're excellent scopes. Don't really give up much if anything to an S&B, which is still what I use, though I'm tempted to look at the Minox.

You don't like the EBR 2C from Vortex ? I really like that one and wish NF made something similar. Am just starting to do some viewing thru the SKMR3 on the Khales which is very nice.
 
  • Price High to Low – NF- Vortex -S+B
Where are you getting a S&B for less than the vortex? Serious question since I missed out on the opticsplanlet deal.

S&B is having a price drop. Some of their PMIIs are coming in at $2800 USD, Still not cheaper than the street price of a Gen II Razor but it's pretty close. Liberty Optics have the 4.5x27 Gen II Razors for $2500. S&B also upped their warranty to 20 years. Still not as good as Vortex but there aren't to many things with a 20 year warranty. Looks like S&B might be taking aim at Vortex customers. :)
 
Very well done.Since I have been spoiled buy quality scopes I'm always looking for info like this on good glass. Thank You
 
I'm not a fan of Christmas tree style reticles.

The 1C is basically the same reticle without the Christmas tree.

sub_rzr-g2_f_45-27x56_ebr-1c_mrad-t.jpg

 
S&B is having a price drop. Some of their PMIIs are coming in at $2800 USD, Still not cheaper than the street price of a Gen II Razor but it's pretty close. Liberty Optics have the 4.5x27 Gen II Razors for $2500. S&B also upped their warranty to 20 years. Still not as good as Vortex but there aren't to many things with a 20 year warranty. Looks like S&B might be taking aim at Vortex customers. :)

They might be trying but their features on the scope and what you get for the price is still not close to beating Vortex. You can find the 4.5-27s new for well under $2500 if you shop around. Also their warranty still doesn't cover the accidental damage as Vortex does. Have your S&B get run over by a truck or burn in a house fire and see what they do for you. ;)

I ran a S&B 5-25 for 6 years in matches and I like everything about the Vortex better except I wished it had a 10 meter parallax adjustment like the S&B but I can work around that.
 
"One of the things that I see NF still using and, to me it is annoying, is a process that means the entire ocular turns when the mag ring is turned. I consider this a demerit and puts NF back of the pack in this regard. Time for a change NF."

Amen. The is one of the main reasons I haven't tried a Nightforce yet (the first was reticles. But new Mil-C addressed that). I'm sorry, but with a lens cap on there, rotating the entire ocular is a huge pain in the ass. I tried a friend's once and it just got in the way. In the wrong position it can even prevent the bolt from cycling properly. How do you shoot a match with that? You have to go from 12x to 25x during a coarse of fire and suddenly your scope cover is in the way of your bolt or your weak eye. And if you have to rotate the ocular in such a way that puts the open flap of the cap at the 6:00 position, then you actually can't even rotate the mag ring because the cap is hitting the stock and preventing your from doing it until you reach up and adjust the flap with one hand while you rotate the mag ring with the other. No bueno, Nightforce.

Wholeheartedly agree. That would be a deal breaker for me.....

The 1C is basically the same reticle without the Christmas tree.

sub_rzr-g2_f_45-27x56_ebr-1c_mrad-t.jpg

This is what I chose. Since I dial come-ups and hold wind I don't see the use in the tree......if you are holding both then I could see it being very useful.
 
Reticle options and rotating ocular are the two exact reasons I am still not considering NF over Razors. That will change the moment those two issues are addressed - if they're addressed.
 
I recently bought a new NF ATACR 7-35x56 F1 and so I figured I would see how it stacked up against the Vortex Razor II's I own and the venerable S+B Pmii. For those who like a longish read ( lots of pics tho ) I posted my thoughts here:

https://rifletalk.org/2017/03/04/co...tex-razor-hd-ii-4-5-27x56-vs-sb-pmii-5-25x56/

All the glass is mine (no loaners) and it is one guys opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

Nice work....
So "left side windage" , where would the parallax (& illumination) be on this "perfect scope"?
 
I recently had the opportunity to run the new NF 7-35 next to my vortex 4.5-27 with the ebr-2c. The NF reticle was much thicker in comparison (with both scopes at max magnification) and covered way too much of the target at longer distances for my liking. With the finer reticle and small open center the vortex reticle was much easier to use, especially with moa sized targets.
 
small open center the vortex reticle was much easier to use, especially with moa sized targets.

I saw some guy In a video complaining about this "open center".... Where is this? Has this reticle changed? Mine is like the one above, without an open center. Unless I'm confused about what you mean.
 
I saw some guy In a video complaining about this "open center".... Where is this? Has this reticle changed? Mine is like the one above, without an open center. Unless I'm confused about what you mean.

The ebr-2c has a .06 open center, the ebr-1c does not. Perhaps you have the ebr-1c? If you have the 2c, put it on max magnification and look again!
 
The ebr-2c has a .06 open center, the ebr-1c does not. Perhaps you have the ebr-1c? If you have the 2c, put it on max magnification and look again!
Ah yes I have the ebr -1c. I'm so glad I did not get the 2c now. I would not have liked that feature. Personal taste. I'm also not a "gamer". I can see how the tree is beneficial to gamers.....
 
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I was always a more standard reticle guy until I started using the 2C more. I have both. The open center is not overly large like some can be and I can place a 3/8" MOA dot in it at 100 and makes very precise shots easier. The tree is not just beneficial to gamers but anyone using the reticle for holds. It can be done with practice on the 1C or similar reticles but holding both wind and elevation is much easier with the 2C. It's one of those things you don't know you missed until you try it.
 
Rob,

As long as the S&Bs are considered the gold standard by which all others are judged there will be a market for them. I've seen people say that the S&B is better but not enough to take it over the Razor due to the price difference. With them dropping the prices that might change now that the MSRP on some of them are $2800. Not everyone is concerned about a lifetime warranty. But it is good that S&B changed their warranty policy. I could only find one place that I could get a Gen II Razor 4.5x27 for less than $2500 and that was with a 15% discount for signing up for a mailing list and they were out of stock LOL. If they sell the S&Bs I would be able to get that same 15% off.

You think the Razor is a better optic and that's great. But not everyone holds that opinion. And for those that don't but couldn't justify the price difference this might push them to buy the S&B over the Vortex. Let's face it, competition is great for us.

A couple of years ago Vortex really was the only game in town if you wanted a price value scope in this market segment. Then came Burris and the XTR II ( not even close to the Razor I know but still a value priced optic for what it is), Then came Nightforce with the SHV (made a great optic for the price but the magnification was lacking. They could've done better) then came Athlon and they have made a pretty good splash into the scope market it seems and now there is a post introducing German Precision Optics (we will have to see what they bring to the game) which seems to be taking aim at the value priced buyer as well.

This market segment is starting to get pretty crowded. Vortex is the big name in value priced optics right now but things are starting to change with Athlon and now that S&B has started to drop their prices and increase their warranty. Is their warranty as good as Vortex? No, but it is S&B so they may not need it at this point. But it did get a lot better.
 
Rob,

As long as the S&Bs are considered the gold standard by which all others are judged there will be a market for them. I've seen people say that the S&B is better but not enough to take it over the Razor due to the price difference. With them dropping the prices that might change now that the MSRP on some of them are $2800. Not everyone is concerned about a lifetime warranty. But it is good that S&B changed their warranty policy. I could only find one place that I could get a Gen II Razor 4.5x27 for less than $2500 and that was with a 15% discount for signing up for a mailing list and they were out of stock LOL. If they sell the S&Bs I would be able to get that same 15% off.

You think the Razor is a better optic and that's great. But not everyone holds that opinion. And for those that don't but couldn't justify the price difference this might push them to buy the S&B over the Vortex. Let's face it, competition is great for us.

A couple of years ago Vortex really was the only game in town if you wanted a price value scope in this market segment. Then came Burris and the XTR II ( not even close to the Razor I know but still a value priced optic for what it is), Then came Nightforce with the SHV (made a great optic for the price but the magnification was lacking. They could've done better) then came Athlon and they have made a pretty good splash into the scope market it seems and now there is a post introducing German Precision Optics (we will have to see what they bring to the game) which seems to be taking aim at the value priced buyer as well.

This market segment is starting to get pretty crowded. Vortex is the big name in value priced optics right now but things are starting to change with Athlon and now that S&B has started to drop their prices and increase their warranty. Is their warranty as good as Vortex? No, but it is S&B so they may not need it at this point. But it did get a lot better.

If you contact a hide dealer you can get a gen 2 razor 4.5x27 for under $2,500. Jason at Eurooptic, Mike at CStactical, Doug at cameraland, etc.


Covert is as Covert does.

Plenty of good feedback on the scout site.
 
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Don't forget LibertyOptics in that list. :)

Yes! My apologies Scott at Liberty was great when I purchased a Vortex from him.

So again, a gen 2 razor can be found for well under $2500 from any of these guys and I'm sure there's a couple more I'm forgetting. My apologies.


Covert is as Covert does.

Plenty of good feedback on the scout site.
 
Rob,

As long as the S&Bs are considered the gold standard by which all others are judged there will be a market for them. I've seen people say that the S&B is better but not enough to take it over the Razor due to the price difference. With them dropping the prices that might change now that the MSRP on some of them are $2800. Not everyone is concerned about a lifetime warranty. But it is good that S&B changed their warranty policy. I could only find one place that I could get a Gen II Razor 4.5x27 for less than $2500 and that was with a 15% discount for signing up for a mailing list and they were out of stock LOL. If they sell the S&Bs I would be able to get that same 15% off.

You think the Razor is a better optic and that's great. But not everyone holds that opinion. And for those that don't but couldn't justify the price difference this might push them to buy the S&B over the Vortex. Let's face it, competition is great for us.

A couple of years ago Vortex really was the only game in town if you wanted a price value scope in this market segment. Then came Burris and the XTR II ( not even close to the Razor I know but still a value priced optic for what it is), Then came Nightforce with the SHV (made a great optic for the price but the magnification was lacking. They could've done better) then came Athlon and they have made a pretty good splash into the scope market it seems and now there is a post introducing German Precision Optics (we will have to see what they bring to the game) which seems to be taking aim at the value priced buyer as well.

This market segment is starting to get pretty crowded. Vortex is the big name in value priced optics right now but things are starting to change with Athlon and now that S&B has started to drop their prices and increase their warranty. Is their warranty as good as Vortex? No, but it is S&B so they may not need it at this point. But it did get a lot better.

Not all about the warranty. It's about the better design of locking knobs and better feel to the knobs as well as the clickless zeroing. No more being a little off as I had been with the S&Bs. Both track perfectly. Glass is a push. The 2C reticle has really grown on me more so than the H2CMR that I liked in the S&B. The warranty is just icing on the cake if it gets dumped and broken, run over or burned up. Those aren't covered by S&B.

You need to shop around more as people have been buying them around $2250 or so with 10% and no signing up for mailing lists. Even some dealers are giving SH discounts but you need to call and talk to dealers to get the discounts as most can't and won't advertise the discounted prices.

The price point of the Burris and NF SHV are where the new Gen II PST will be living and when they hit the streets they will be some stiff competition. Yes the market is crowded but it's good for the shooters. Lots of good options in that mid price range.

Saying it's an S&B is just that. Impresses some but I have owned about 7 or 8 and know what they are about so it doesn't impress me anymore as it does people hitting that price point for the first time. Are they a good scope? Of course but they aren't perfect for everyone. Even when we were shooting for NF I still kept my S&B as it was my best scope but after getting my first Razor II and doing comparisons I sold my S&Bs and bought more Razor IIs. The shooters have a choice now and it's their money to decide.





 
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on their price points on the scopes. Either way you need to call and talk to them.

I have never used the new NF but I have extensive time behind multiple S&Bs and Razor II scopes and that is where I am speaking from when I post. My likes and dislikes of the scopes.
 
If you contact a hide dealer you can get a gen 2 razor 4.5x27 for under $2,500. Jason at Eurooptic, Mike at CStactical, Doug at cameraland, etc.


Covert is as Covert does.

Plenty of good feedback on the scout site.

Ben at Sport Optics is where I got mine and I did much better than $2500 plus free shipping. They have really treated me awesome on two scopes now.
 
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Not all about the warranty. It's about the better design of locking knobs and better feel to the knobs as well as the clickless zeroing. No more being a little off as I had been with the S&Bs. Both track perfectly. Glass is a push. .......

The warranty is just icing on the cake if it gets dumped and broken, run over or burned up. Those aren't covered by S&B.

Basically why I chose the Gen II. Love that clickless Zero. Since I hold windage mostly, I like the locking windage a lot. This is my first upper range scope and there is a lot of piece of mind with Vortex's warranty.
 
It makes me want to cry when I read you guys talking price - though when I convert the Canadian Peso to US the spread isn't quite so painful to read about !

I think reasonable people (who are not married to a particular brand name) can drawn different conclusions re glass. Our eyes are different and our brains process information in a differing way - for me the ATACR is marginally clearer than the Razor II but someone else could easily see it the other way. I've one scope left to buy to complete the upgrade from SFP MOA/MOA to FFP Mil/Mil and even owning the scopes I own, I honestly can't pick which one will occupy that last spot. I guess that is good since 'm actually broke now after these 'investments' :)
 
It makes me want to cry when I read you guys talking price - though when I convert the Canadian Peso to US the spread isn't quite so painful to read about !

I think reasonable people (who are not married to a particular brand name) can drawn different conclusions re glass. Our eyes are different and our brains process information in a differing way - for me the ATACR is marginally clearer than the Razor II but someone else could easily see it the other way. I've one scope left to buy to complete the upgrade from SFP MOA/MOA to FFP Mil/Mil and even owning the scopes I own, I honestly can't pick which one will occupy that last spot. I guess that is good since 'm actually broke now after these 'investments' :)

I'm really looking froward to your Khales review and also seeing how much/where we can get em up in the frigid North ;)
 
When the Gen II Razor first came out and they were hard to get, I got one for $2125 plus shipping with one phone call to a Snipers Hide vendor. Huge bang for the buck.
 
Hi guys,

Please allow me to chime in ( and be self indulgent) about the warranty situation on scopes.........

Vortex is a fabulous product line and has done the North American shooting community a HUGE service by instituting the best warranty and customer service policy in the industry, bar none. And that statement doesn't even begin to address the positive improvements in features and performance aspects of Vortex Scopes/Optics.
For the Vortex competitors that wish to remain relevant, I believe they must follow suit and at least pony up to the same levels that Vortex has set, at a minimum in terms of warranty. I do see indications of that happening. To Vortex; My hat is off to you and I think that you deserve every bit of business that comes your way. You have earned it through hard work and I hope that consumers continue to support you accordingly. Your success and growth is an overall indication of your quality, innovation, performance, reliability and the growth and health of the industry in general.

For those manufacturers that compete with Vortex and are hesitant to meet or exceed Vortex's warranty policy, I would ask the following question; Why on earth would you think that any customer that spends at a minimum, $2,000.00 (closer to $2,500.00 to $3,500.00) on a scope, would you ever entertain the idea that customer intentionally damaged it, or be careless enough with it with the desire to get a replacement from you free of charge ? From my perspective, as a consumer, that is just way too much of a crap shoot to take that kind of risk. As the cost of entry goes up to $3,000.00 and maybe even $3,500.00 USD, I think this point becomes even more valid. I freak out if I get a scratch on the ZP5 that I paid in excess of $2,700.00 for). I have to believe that the majority of shooters that can afford the cost of entry (minimum of $2,000.00) are going to look after their investment like their new born child. Yes, I understand there are people out there that don't give a damn, but those, you can't fix. I think those "consumers" represent a very small percentage of the buyers in the "Alpha" glass range. I also think that the majority of those people are in the "less than $1,000.00 price category. But remember, we're talking about $2,000.00 " dollars, at an absolute minimum. And, it goes up from there. It is critical to the high end buyers to have a lifetime warranty, that is Transferrable. If I buy a scope for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 and I end up not liking it and wish to re-sell it, I don't want to take $1,000.00 hit, just because the warranty is "non-transferrable". Hint; You just lost a sale to the other manufacturer that has a better warranty policy. Oh, BTW, there aren't even any rings marks on it......

Me, I've pretty much standardized on Minox, who, admittedly, do not have the equivalent warranty policy to Vortex, at least in writing, at least at this point in time. But, I love the glass.....no, I REALLY love the glass. I have seen a number of posts where Minox have come to the table and supported their customers needs in a fashion that I would characterize as identical to (or maybe even better than) Vortex. I really applaud that on the part of Minox. The problem being is that if you as a manufacturer do not state (to date, anyway) that as your normal policy, specifically in writing. Right or wrong. you get dinged in terms of customer perception about the quality and your willingness to stand behind the product. I presently work for a US subsidiary of a German company in the power electronics field and from an insiders perspective, I have no concerns about German quality.....hence my decision in favor of Minox. But, Minox, please update your warranty policy....Bite the bullet and put it in writing. Your sales will increase by ten fold in North America, just by matching Vortex's warranty policy. Your stuff is that good, but consumers are "concerned" about your warranty policy because it doesn't equal Vortex.

If I were one of the "big names" of the traditional "high end scopes" market, I would be concerned if Vortex comes out with a scope that contains glass that is equal to, or exceeds what I had to offer. Vortex has done an exceptional job and have positioned themselves very well in the North American market. I really cannot imagine that they aren't working on a scope/product line that will beat the traditional market leaders. If they do, I think it will be by a wide margin. If I'm the decision maker at Vortex, I've already been sitting face to face with the top glass manufacturers in Europe (maybe Japan) and working a deal. And, Vortex have probably have been doing that for a number of years. Timing is everything and Vortex has been doing a great job of rolling out products when the time is right (and not before).

From what I have seen, very few, or none of the traditional high end scope manufacturers make their own glass. Kahles buys from (as a division of) Swarovski and Minox buys from Schott. S&B, I'm not sure, I think Schott. There is nothing stopping Vortex from striking a deal with any of the big name glass/lens producers. Vortex is becoming (if they aren't already the biggest) a big player in the North American market. Swarovski might not sell to Vortex because of Kahles, but Schott probably would, plus a couple of other glass manufactures in Europe and Japan (Fujinon ?). I suspect that the next big thing(s) in the scope market will actually come from Vortex. If Vortex gets their hands on the same (or better) glass that is in my ZP5's, they (my ZP5's) will have gone to half what I paid for them.

Thx,
 
Vortex is working on developing their in house American made glass (ie. AMG). At this point, they can't match what Optronika is offering in terms of glass quality, but Optronika is piggybacking off the Premier prescriptions.

From their humble bird watching beginnings, Vortex has grown leaps and bounds under clearly effective and forward thinking leadership.

IMO the most remarkable thing about Vortex is the way the company has grown in both the direction and pace that they move at. Their executive decision making is far more impressive than the scopes they put out.

I own an AMG purely for the 100% American made aspect (mine has the American reticle). May be a tiny part of the market, but it worked on me. If they can produce their own glass and continually improve quality... they will be positioned very well domestically for a number of reasons.

I've used their warranty before and it's legit. They pick up the phone when you call their phone #, and their CS doesn't give you the runaround to avoid helping you. They're genuinely helpful.

Vortex is a great example of a company doing it BETTER than the competition, even though they don't have the resources of the larger companies.

I sincerely hope they never get too big for their britches by dialing back on their current trajectory and way of taking care of customers.

Am I a fanboy? more so of their business model than their scopes. That said, in the Razor and AMG line, they make great scopes that compare favorably with others in their price range.

 
Am I a fanboy? more so of their business model than their scopes. That said, in the Razor and AMG line, they make great scopes that compare favorably with others in their price range.

Couldn't have said it better. They even followed me on Instagram, in a social media world that seems to value those with high "follower" to "following" disparity ratios as an indictor of success and popularity. To me this says something about their core feeling of generosity and inclusion towards their customers, as opposed to feigned snobby-ness.

Like you said, they pick up the phone. When you purchase one of their products you feel like part of an extended family. As a business person with my own customers, I find Vortex's success an inspiration. As a consumer, I take great comfort in knowing that my expensive scope is covered even in the event of my own stupidity.......

I'm not an "entitled-ist", as I see so much of these days. Having said that, Vortex has moved the bar high. Did they start it? No. In my opinion companies like Leupold did long ago and they took it to the next level. Having said all that, I'm surprised companies like S&B don't simply follow suit. It's obvious that they are feeling the market pressure from Vortex and reacting. But really, why a 20 year warranty when your completion is going with lifetime? Is there really that much difference between the two. There certainly IS in terms of customer perception.

There different kinds of "lifetime warranties" those that sell junk and will simply replace it if you have a problem, and those who sell high -quality and stand behind their products. Obviously Vortex is in the latter category, which again has moved the bar high for other shooting optic companies.
 
Not all about the warranty. It's about the better design of locking knobs and better feel to the knobs as well as the clickless zeroing. No more being a little off as I had been with the S&Bs. Both track perfectly. Glass is a push. The 2C reticle has really grown on me more so than the H2CMR that I liked in the S&B. The warranty is just icing on the cake if it gets dumped and broken, run over or burned up. Those aren't covered by S&B.

You need to shop around more as people have been buying them around $2250 or so with 10% and no signing up for mailing lists. Even some dealers are giving SH discounts but you need to call and talk to dealers to get the discounts as most can't and won't advertise the discounted prices.

The price point of the Burris and NF SHV are where the new Gen II PST will be living and when they hit the streets they will be some stiff competition. Yes the market is crowded but it's good for the shooters. Lots of good options in that mid price range.

Saying it's an S&B is just that. Impresses some but I have owned about 7 or 8 and know what they are about so it doesn't impress me anymore as it does people hitting that price point for the first time. Are they a good scope? Of course but they aren't perfect for everyone. Even when we were shooting for NF I still kept my S&B as it was my best scope but after getting my first Razor II and doing comparisons I sold my S&Bs and bought more Razor IIs. The shooters have a choice now and it's their money to decide.

I picked up a hell of a deal with one of our vendors about 6 months or more ago on my Gen 2 Razor 4.5-27x56. It was 2199 with the defender scope caps and the throw lever included, and if memory serves me, that was shipped to my door. This was a brand new scope as well... So there is some deals out there to be had if you do the leg work.. I love my Razor by the way, a big thanks to Rob and Meplat for swaying me in the right direction...