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Hunting Rifle: 7mm Rem Mag or 7mm SAUM?

secondofangle2

secondofangle2

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    • Jul 3, 2017
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    Deciding on a build. Thoughts:

    published velocities are 100 fps slower for SAUM, but I'm thinking with 10 grains less capacity than 7mm Rem Mag, that may be an underestimate of the gap in real world, esp seated long

    You can't fill the SAUM case with enough of any Hodgdon powder (per QL) without being seriously compressed, so I see most shooting stuff like RL23/RL26, which is unobtanium. Plus I have plenty of H1000 H4831SC and Retumbo on hand and only RL19 and RL50

    Is saving 1" length on the action important? Will most short actions accommodate a 175 or 180 ELD without loading too deep and encroaching on case volume?

    I don't care about the belt

    ADG SAUM brass is in stock right now, seems like that problem is more or less solved

    Is SAUM a better (more efficient or more "inherently accurate" or easier to tune) cartridge?

    Thoughts?
     
    Why only those two cartridge choices? H1000 and H4831SC both work really well in the 7mm PRC, which also can handle pushing heavy bullets fast.

    While I realize this is a Google search result, the article isn’t bad and a decent comparison of the 7 REM mag and the 7 PRC:

    www.americanhunter.org

    An Official Journal Of The NRA | Head to Head: 7mm PRC vs. 7mm Remington Magnum

    One is a newbie and one ranks among the most popular hunting cartridges sold to this day, but both have appreciable characteristics. Which cartridge the better choice for the hunter? Here’s a detailed look at the pros and cons of each.
    www.americanhunter.org www.americanhunter.org
     
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    I had a 7 mm rem mag it was an excellent hunting rifle [savage ] maybe a little light on big bear but in the hands of an experienced hunter /reloader it can take almost anything in N america . I sold mine 45 years ago and replaced it with a 300 win mag for longer ranges
     
    If you have 4831 that will work great. Also go with the better then both your choices and build a 7 Sherman Short in a short action.
     
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    I have no experience with the other calibers mentioned but am very partial to my 7 Remmy mag since parking my .30-06 as my go to deer rifle

    It just flat pins these western muley's to the ground.

    Nothing special firearm wise other than handed down from my dad.

    nikko.jpg
     
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    I understand the recommendation for 7PRC but as I understand it, the only point of that cartridge was to have a chambering designed with a free board long enough to shoot the long heavy bullets.

    I was going to have Manson Reimers design me is 7 mm Remington Magnum Remer with about .200” extra free board so I can take advantage of all 82+ grains of capacity in the case
     
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    Actually, I just measured the capacity of my Winchester cases fired from my 40 X Remington custom shop chamber. It is a slightly tighter than usual chamber. It has 85 grains of capacity and change. That is just shy of a 25% increase in case capacity over the SAUM.
     
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    SAUM

    Enough to do the job and dead easy to load for and shoot well.

    The bigger boomers deliver more energy but exploit every flaw in your marksmanship skills.

    This is reminiscent of the 30-06 versus .308 debates.

    Spoiler alert: .308 won.
     
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    Still a fan of the 7mm RM for hunting. I'm more of a fan of the 150 - 168gr bullets for hunting in *my area. Right now, I'm pushing either the 150gr Accubond LR and ELD-X right at 3,040 FPS (it is where my best accuracy lies), which gives stupid flat trajectory out well past my personal limits on how far I'll take a shot at a deer. You can really stand on a 7mm RM too if you so desire (I don't).

    probably would choose a different 7mm cartridge though for target shooting. I'm actually still somewhat in the same boat of trying to decide on one for another barrel. Brass availability will be a deciding factor, but I prefer a shorter and fatter (and more efficient) case than the RM design lends.
     
    david walter said:
    I have a bone stock Tikka 7mm Rem Mag that shoots 168 Berger VLD hunting at 3080 fps.

    Not sure what a 7 PRC offers that I need.
    Click to expand...
    I’m not one to tell anybody they should change from what they have that works for them. I recommended the PRC for someone who doesn’t have a 7mm already and is deciding.

    I still shoot my .260 and will replace this fourth barrel with another.260 when it’s time. I already have hundreds of .260 cases that I’ll use ‘till they’re toast. Yet I’ll recommend 6.5 Creedmoor to anyone who asks which one they should get for their first .264” caliber rifle.
     
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    If starting fresh, I’d roll the long action.
    I’d probably build a PRC, but I’d not turn my nose up at good 700 eating belted cases.
    LA length just gives more elbow room and allows for BDL bottom metal on a hunting rifle. If that matters to you….
     
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    No comment on the 7 rem mag.

    I have and have seen and shot several 7 Saums on LA’s throated long. I’m pushing 180 hybrids 2950 with no pressure 64 gns of n565. H1000 is very close for me as well with the 180 edms. One of the most accurate rifles I’ve owned. It’s a 26’ and I’m probably going to get it cut to 22 just to make it a little handier when hunting suppressed. There’s more overbore 7mms out there but for shoot ability and real world applications I can’t see how you beat it. Only caveat would be is if you want shoot factory ammo then go 7prc, reload go saum
     
    I think the 7 saum is a great, and liked the one I had. But I would definitely go with the rem mag now. I don’t like dealing with the head aches associated with obsolete cartridges.
    Having a long action in a hunting rifle is fine, imo.
     
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    My 2 cents. A hunting rifle.

    An empty hunting rifle makes a semi good but fairly expensive club. If for any reason, your ammunition supply gets left, gets dumped or just plain has an issue, 7mm Remington Magnum factory is about as common as .22LR. All those others, good luck.

    For hunting, go with what you can find in a gas station or Walmart on Saturday night at 10:00. Makes Sunday morning in the field a lot happier.
     
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    Am I right about the powders needed (Alliant unobtanim) to get enough energy in the case to reach towards top speeds? Like I'm hoping for 2850ish from a 22-24" barrel
     
    7prc ammo/brass are getting easier to source, OEMs are obviously onboard, & after speaking to 2 gunsmiths about the volumes they’re chambering in 7prc, I have a lot of confidence in it being increasingly widely available over the next few decades

    I have a SA mag bf for 6.5prc & I’m not going to bother having a 7saum or 300wsm barrel cut for it, although I thought about it for a hot minute. I’m just going to do a LA 7prc.

    The only caveat would be if you hunt internationally & want to be able to source ammo abroad. Then maybe 7rm
     
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    I understand the desire SAUM, kind of a performance thing. Others tune up a .280 AI and end up replacing barrels.

    I agree with others, if one does not have a 7. get 7 PRC and find a good load. If you already have a 7 RM, you can stick with that.

    Others have said that if you want custom, get 7 RM. If you want a factory rifle that shoots factory ammo well, get the 7 PRC.
     
    secondofangle2 said:
    I understand the recommendation for 7PRC but as I understand it, the only point of that cartridge was to have a chambering designed with a free board long enough to shoot the long heavy bullets.

    I was going to have Manson Reimers design me is 7 mm Remington Magnum Remer with about .200” extra free board so I can take advantage of all 82+ grains of capacity in the case
    Click to expand...

    Prc will shoot the 180 75 fps faster than the mag with h1000 - hodgdon book speed of 2925 max vs 2850.

    I’ll tell you from experience if youre thinking about trying to push the 7 mag beyond the prc thinking you can outsmart pressure you will have a horrible time with that belt.
     
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    Maurygold said:
    Prc will shoot the 180 75 fps faster than the mag with h1000 - hodgdon book speed of 2925 max vs 2850.

    I’ll tell you from experience if youre thinking about trying to push the 7 mag beyond the prc thinking you can outsmart pressure you will have a horrible time with that belt.
    Click to expand...
    Fuck a book. You do realize that the RM has more case capacity than the PRC right?
     
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    WeiserBucks said:
    Fuck a book. You do realize that the RM has more case capacity than the PRC right?
    Click to expand...

    I clearly realize that and you can re-read the second part of my comment about pressure and a belt.

    I own and shoot a 7 mag.
     
    Lightning8 said:
    Either. Well, actually, 280AI is the correct answer.
    Click to expand...

    No. Poor components selection and it’s less powerful than mag or prc.

    Nosler brass is overpriced garbage and if you disagree you are wrong. (I’ve owned a 280)
     
    Maurygold said:
    Prc will shoot the 180 75 fps faster than the mag with h1000 - hodgdon book speed of 2925 max vs 2850.

    I’ll tell you from experience if youre thinking about trying to push the 7 mag beyond the prc thinking you can outsmart pressure you will have a horrible time with that belt.
    Click to expand...

    I am shooting a 7RM with a 27" barrel and a custom throat that puts 180 Bergers at 3.56" COAL at 10 thou off the lands. With ADG brass and around 72 grains of N570 I am in the 3040 fps range with outstanding brass life. I could go even higher without trashing the brass but I found better accuracy where I am at. N565 will get you over 3000 also. VV powders are readily available.

    So, give the 7RM a proper throat and a long barrel and that book velocity advantage disappears. I do agree that in SAAMI form the 7RM is at a disadvantage.
     
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    surgeon260 said:
    I am shooting a 7RM with a 27" barrel and a custom throat that puts 180 Bergers at 3.56" COAL at 10 thou off the lands. With ADG brass and around 72 grains of N570 I am in the 3040 fps range with outstanding brass life. I could go even higher without trashing the brass but I found better accuracy where I am at. N565 will get you over 3000 also. VV powders are readily available.

    So, give the 7RM a proper throat and a long barrel and that book velocity advantage disappears. I do agree that in SAAMI form the 7RM is at a disadvantage.
    Click to expand...

    Prc would still go faster and doesn’t have the belt issue with dies.
     
    Not sure what “the belt issue” is?

    If you set a false shoulder on new brass, and then headspace off the once fired shoulder, this isn’t a problem.

    I use a 30 cal to neck up, then size down the neck so the bolt just closes on new brass loads. Then set the dies to bump the shoulder 0.004 - 0.005 for each subsequent loading.

    Maurygold said:
    Prc would still go faster and doesn’t have the belt issue with dies.
    Click to expand...
     
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    david walter said:
    Not sure what “the belt issue” is?
    Click to expand...
    The "belt issue" is a fallacy created by some retarded Fudds who shoot BR comps that were obviously too stupid to know how to neck-size their brass, or setup their dies properly to keep the belt from being "a problem". Anything can become a problem if it's not setup right, or the rifle isn't built right, or the idiot pulling the lever doesn't really know what he's doing. It then proliferated into the ethers from gunstore Fudds and sleazy marketing campaigns, and then exacerbated by gunstore Fuddlore, and the wonderful interwebz.

    Basically, only morons believe that there is a "belt issue". Saying that belts are problematic is almost as dumb as saying "straight-wall cartridges can't be accurate", or "A .30-30 Win can't shoot past 150 yards..." 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
     
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    surgeon260 said:
    I've never had trouble controlling headspace on a belted cartridge. If anything, that is the one thing the belt is good for!
    Click to expand...
    EXACTLY! And if you neck-size, or only bump the shoulder back a few thousandths, then you won't likely have any issues with belted cases. But we have to remember the #1 thing in life...Most people are dumb...Including your average hunter, gun owner, and reloader (these days where it's starting to grow in popularity). 👍🏼
     
    secondofangle2 said:
    Deciding on a build. Thoughts:

    published velocities are 100 fps slower for SAUM, but I'm thinking with 10 grains less capacity than 7mm Rem Mag, that may be an underestimate of the gap in real world, esp seated long

    You can't fill the SAUM case with enough of any Hodgdon powder (per QL) without being seriously compressed, so I see most shooting stuff like RL23/RL26, which is unobtanium. Plus I have plenty of H1000 H4831SC and Retumbo on hand and only RL19 and RL50

    Is saving 1" length on the action important? Will most short actions accommodate a 175 or 180 ELD without loading too deep and encroaching on case volume?

    I don't care about the belt

    ADG SAUM brass is in stock right now, seems like that problem is more or less solved

    Is SAUM a better (more efficient or more "inherently accurate" or easier to tune) cartridge?

    Thoughts?
    Click to expand...
    My thoughts on this...

    If you already have/have had a 7mmRM and you like the 7mmRM, then just keep shooting the 7mmRM. It's great cartridge, and I've been using it personally for 22 years as my main deer cartridge. Never once let me down.

    If you are completely new to 7mm magnums and starting from scratch, and you want the new hotness, but something that will put down nearly identical ballistics to the 7mmRM, but in a newer shinier package... Go with the 7mm PRC. It's already proving itself to be a great cartridge, as well.

    I'm not a fan of SAUM/WSM cartridges...Especially in short-actions, because like has been said already, WAY too long COAL to try to use any sort of good high-BC bullets in a short-action without a massive and likely-problematic amount of jump to the lands.

    Now, that said, you could always do a SAUM/WSM/Sherman Shortmag in something like a medium-length action. I think there's companies that offer those in nice aftermarket actions, but don't know who does right off the top.

    Also, to top things off, there is no such thing as "inherent accuracy" or a "forgiving cartridge"... Those are bullshit terms created by marketing teams to push sales for new cartridges they are offering. Any cartridge in any gun can be accurate with the right set of circumstances...Like a reputable gunsmith, good barrel, good work performed, good ammo, and a good shooter.
     
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    FuhQ said:
    The "belt issue" is a fallacy created by some retarded Fudds who shoot BR comps that were obviously too stupid to know how to neck-size their brass, or setup their dies properly to keep the belt from being "a problem". Anything can become a problem if it's not setup right, or the rifle isn't built right, or the idiot pulling the lever doesn't really know what he's doing. It then proliferated into the ethers from gunstore Fudds and sleazy marketing campaigns, and then exacerbated by gunstore Fuddlore, and the wonderful interwebz.

    Basically, only morons believe that there is a "belt issue". Saying that belts are problematic is almost as dumb as saying "straight-wall cartridges can't be accurate", or "A .30-30 Win can't shoot past 150 yards..." 🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
    Click to expand...

    Lol I went through 3 different fl dies trying to size the wall down to belts to keep my adg brass usable. Had to have custom Whidden dies made to use it. Same for 300 win mag w/ lapua.

    Pressure and belts aren’t a great time.
     
    Maurygold said:
    Lol I went through 3 different fl dies trying to size the wall down to belts to keep my adg brass usable. Had to have custom Whidden dies made to use it. Same for 300 win mag w/ lapua.

    Pressure and belts aren’t a great time.
    Click to expand...
    I've never had an issue in the thousands of rounds of belted cases I've reloaded...Anything from .257 Wby, 7mmRM, .300WM, 7mm STW, .300 Wby, .300 Ackley...And I don't have anything that I load "light" for. Everything I load is pushing towards the edge. I use regular old RCBS or Redding dies...Nothing special.
     
    WeiserBucks said:
    Tell us more about how a cartridge with less case capacity is going to be faster.
    Click to expand...

    Hmmmm…… maybe you haven’t been paying attention the last 5-7 years but case efficiency is a real thing and our understanding has improved since 1983.
     
    Maurygold said:
    Hmmmm…… maybe you haven’t been paying attention the last 5-7 years but case efficiency is a real thing and our understanding has improved since 1983.
    Click to expand...
    For once, we actually agree on something. I learned this many moons ago comparing side-by-side my custom 26" .25-06 AI and my 26" .257 Wby. The Wby case holds exponentially more powder, but my loads were 10-12 grains more for the Wby, and it only produced 75 FPS more velocity. And when you're already talking about 3,350+ FPS...75 FPS isn't much to justify burning an extra 10-12 grains more powder.
     
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