I don’t think the 20 eats them quite as well as the 17.
Night Vision It’s coming...
- Thread starter TheHorta
- Start date
I think the only difference is the M comes collimated with a 1-MOA “guarantee” from Andres.
This is the internet after all - pass judgement first, then get the facts
@TheHortaMachine gun rated, so I'm "assuming" OK with SCAR-20S.
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Didn't you say at one point that one of the differences between the Z and M is that the M version is fully compliant to MIL-STD-810G? If that is true, I would expect that the military version be rated to handle machine gun fire. The vibration and shock protocols in 810G are pretty severe. Is the Z version similarly rated even though it is not tested against MIL-STD-810G?
The Z mounts to the objective of your day scope, has a polymer housing and does NOT have a reticle.
However...
They are letting us upgrade the Z to a aluminum housing and add the era tac mounting configuration to rail mount.
The only difference between the M like Horta has and the Z that we’re ordering in this configuration is simply the reticle
They won’t let us have the reticle because then Horta wouldn’t feel “special”
For the 6M we would have to provide documentation showing it’s going to a law enforcement agency or government entity. By ordering them this way we by pass that mess and wait times go from 6 months to 2 months.
My original order of 5 didn’t last long. Looks like we will have 10 on the way by the end of the week! Thanks for the orders guys! I’m just as excited as y’all I promise.
Jay
However...
They are letting us upgrade the Z to a aluminum housing and add the era tac mounting configuration to rail mount.
The only difference between the M like Horta has and the Z that we’re ordering in this configuration is simply the reticle
They won’t let us have the reticle because then Horta wouldn’t feel “special”
For the 6M we would have to provide documentation showing it’s going to a law enforcement agency or government entity. By ordering them this way we by pass that mess and wait times go from 6 months to 2 months.
My original order of 5 didn’t last long. Looks like we will have 10 on the way by the end of the week! Thanks for the orders guys! I’m just as excited as y’all I promise.
Jay
@Eliteuas I agree with your reasoning, but:
1. Forming hypothesis and asking help in testing them is one of the most successful knowledge building concepts in history.
2. Horta’s current setup will never determine if this concern is an issue (the continuous one piece rail of the SCAR is WAY better for forward mounting than almost anything else out there.
I’m hopeful this will be a UTC for less than half the cost. If it is, I’ll be getting one.
You’re absolutely right that If I’m a little bit patient there’s no real rush
1. Forming hypothesis and asking help in testing them is one of the most successful knowledge building concepts in history.
2. Horta’s current setup will never determine if this concern is an issue (the continuous one piece rail of the SCAR is WAY better for forward mounting than almost anything else out there.
I’m hopeful this will be a UTC for less than half the cost. If it is, I’ll be getting one.
You’re absolutely right that If I’m a little bit patient there’s no real rush
It's my understanding that the SCAR 20 is the most forgiving, followed by the 17, with the 16 actually being the worst, due to it having the highest BCG velocity.
Companies that do this are beyond gay
Want me to email them your comment? I’m sure they can translate it to German and try to be a bit less gay
Completely agree, but be aware that Germany (and other European countries) are very strict about what can be exported for civilian end users. If the companies don’t restrict these items we don’t get anything at all.
From Dr. Andres-
2. Collimation works the same with the TigIR-6Z+ as it does with the 6M.
3. Both devices are pre-collimated at the factory and at 1x magnification, everything fits in most cases. However, for the use of the digital zoom, we recommend users to collimate them accurately as well. This significantly increases the precision at long range.
Question one was semi unrelated.
2. Collimation works the same with the TigIR-6Z+ as it does with the 6M.
3. Both devices are pre-collimated at the factory and at 1x magnification, everything fits in most cases. However, for the use of the digital zoom, we recommend users to collimate them accurately as well. This significantly increases the precision at long range.
Question one was semi unrelated.
Did a super-quick 2x 5-round groups late yesterday evening — IF there is a POI shift, it is under 1/2-MOA, out of the box.
I only had 30 minutes free yesterday (stolen time). Saturday I’ll run a few mags at different magnification settings and will post photos of targets.
I only had 30 minutes free yesterday (stolen time). Saturday I’ll run a few mags at different magnification settings and will post photos of targets.
Oh yeah... and the reticles are just plain STOOPID! Seriously, they’re the most simple, basic, retarded little dot/crosshairs. You’d thing there was some kind of Uber-Death-Ray-Wunder-Reticle with the way they say “Nein! Nein! Nein! It es for zee MILITARY ONLY!”
Seriously, the reticles were hand drawn in crayon by kindergartners.
Seriously, the reticles were hand drawn in crayon by kindergartners.
HAHAHAHAHA
Had to point it out.
Appreciate all the work to educate us on these devices. I am still trying to decide what to buy
Another question:
Thank you for the information. As far as I understand, the only difference between the 6z and the 6m then is the availability of the reticle in the 6m, and that with the 6m the picatinny mount is integral while with the 6z it. is purchased in addition. Is this correct? If so, what is the use of the reticle in this device since it is primarily to be mounted in front of the day optic. Is it in case the TigIr will be used as the primary aiming optic?
Response:
That is all correct. In fact, the TigIR-M was also primarily developed as a clip-on thermal. There is usually a scope behind it. With the crosshairs, however, it can also be used stand alone. Some military users have asked for this. Personally, I don't think it makes much sense.
Thank you for the information. As far as I understand, the only difference between the 6z and the 6m then is the availability of the reticle in the 6m, and that with the 6m the picatinny mount is integral while with the 6z it. is purchased in addition. Is this correct? If so, what is the use of the reticle in this device since it is primarily to be mounted in front of the day optic. Is it in case the TigIr will be used as the primary aiming optic?
Response:
That is all correct. In fact, the TigIR-M was also primarily developed as a clip-on thermal. There is usually a scope behind it. With the crosshairs, however, it can also be used stand alone. Some military users have asked for this. Personally, I don't think it makes much sense.
That about sums up both what I’d expect, and the fact that the “reticles” are as useful as a steering wheel on a train.
TOP 5 Reasons to buy the UTC-Xii over the TigIR-6M/Z:
1) You routinely deploy from submarines 20-meters underwater.
2) You routinely shoot critters inside of 20-yards with your $20,000 clip-on.
3) You have a Raptar-S with TracIR cable and depend upon TracIR for survival.
4) No dealing with finicky collimation.
5) Color display pallets are for non-binary, gender-fluid types and anything but WH/BH risks incurring the wrath of your personal deity.
TOP 10 REASONS to buy the TigIR-6M/Z over the UTC-Xii:
1) Save $10,000.
2) Obtanium.
3) Smaller, lighter, more compact, more features.
4) >90% (or better) the image quality of the UTC using identical scopes/magnifications.
5) Internal Mechanical Shutter / AutoNUC!
6) Flip-cover is bonkers genius design and execution.
7) Can swim with it.
8) Able to use 16650 rechargeables = NO MORE EXTERNAL BATTERY PACKS!
9) First-ever legit digital zoom clip-on!
10) A few of the LGBTQ color pallets are actually useful.
1) You routinely deploy from submarines 20-meters underwater.
2) You routinely shoot critters inside of 20-yards with your $20,000 clip-on.
3) You have a Raptar-S with TracIR cable and depend upon TracIR for survival.
4) No dealing with finicky collimation.
5) Color display pallets are for non-binary, gender-fluid types and anything but WH/BH risks incurring the wrath of your personal deity.
TOP 10 REASONS to buy the TigIR-6M/Z over the UTC-Xii:
1) Save $10,000.
2) Obtanium.
3) Smaller, lighter, more compact, more features.
4) >90% (or better) the image quality of the UTC using identical scopes/magnifications.
5) Internal Mechanical Shutter / AutoNUC!
6) Flip-cover is bonkers genius design and execution.
7) Can swim with it.
8) Able to use 16650 rechargeables = NO MORE EXTERNAL BATTERY PACKS!
9) First-ever legit digital zoom clip-on!
10) A few of the LGBTQ color pallets are actually useful.
Sounds like you have ten reasons to sell me the Xii!TOP 5 Reasons to buy the UTC-Xii over the TigIR-6M/Z:
1) You routinely deploy from submarines 20-meters underwater.
2) You routinely shoot critters inside of 20-yards with your $20,000 clip-on.
3) You have a Raptar-S with TracIR cable and depend upon TracIR for survival.
4) No dealing with finicky collimation.
5) Color display pallets are for non-binary, gender-fluid types and anything but WH/BH risks incurring the wrath of your personal deity.
TOP 10 REASONS to buy the TigIR-6M/Z over the UTC-Xii:
1) Save $10,000.
2) Obtanium.
3) Smaller, lighter, more compact, more features.
4) >90% (or better) the image quality of the UTC using identical scopes/magnifications.
5) Internal Mechanical Shutter / AutoNUC!
6) Flip-cover is bonkers genius design and execution.
7) Can swim with it.
8) Able to use 16650 rechargeables = NO MORE EXTERNAL BATTERY PACKS!
9) First-ever legit digital zoom clip-on!
10) A few of the LGBTQ color pallets are actually useful.
The other one though. Not the one that went swamp swimming
Questions:
#4. “no dealing with finicky collimation”
Is this collimated in the sense that it’s switchable from gun to gun without adjustments, or not? Factory statements like “collimated to within 1 MOA” don’t seem to jive with the need for finicky collimating.
If the screen must be “lined up” rather than optically collimated, we WILL be relying on the consistency of bridges, free float rails, and RTZ mounts, which would constitute a massive consideration in favor of the UTC for serious work...
As before, while that last statement is factually... fact, based on all prior technologies, I’m really asking the question in case there’s some new technology at work here.
#9. “digital magnification”
For observation I can see a benefit. For shooting, can you explain how that works? If I’m looking at a 2x screen in order to double my day scope magnification, doesn’t that give me a false mil scale in my day scope?
Thanks!
#4. “no dealing with finicky collimation”
Is this collimated in the sense that it’s switchable from gun to gun without adjustments, or not? Factory statements like “collimated to within 1 MOA” don’t seem to jive with the need for finicky collimating.
If the screen must be “lined up” rather than optically collimated, we WILL be relying on the consistency of bridges, free float rails, and RTZ mounts, which would constitute a massive consideration in favor of the UTC for serious work...
As before, while that last statement is factually... fact, based on all prior technologies, I’m really asking the question in case there’s some new technology at work here.
#9. “digital magnification”
For observation I can see a benefit. For shooting, can you explain how that works? If I’m looking at a 2x screen in order to double my day scope magnification, doesn’t that give me a false mil scale in my day scope?
Thanks!
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Questions:
#4. “no dealing with finicky collimation”
Is this collimated in the sense that it’s switchable from gun to gun without adjustments, or not? Factory statements like “collimated to within 1 MOA” don’t seem to jive with the need for finicky collimating.
If the screen must be “lined up” rather than optically collimated, we WILL be relying on the consistency of bridges, free float rails, and RTZ mounts, which would constitute a massive consideration in favor of the UTC for serious work...
As before, while that last statement is factually... fact, based on all prior technologies, I’m really asking the question in case there’s some new technology at work here.
#9. “digital magnification”
For observation I can see a benefit. For shooting, can you explain how that works? If I’m looking at a 2x screen in order to double my day scope magnification, doesn’t that give me a false mil scale in my day scope?
Thanks!
In answer to your first question, I hope to find out practically this weekend by swapping Tigger between various rifles with widely variegated scopes.
To your second question — yes (obviously) — changing Tigger magnification affects day scope subtensions, but at least at 2x it shouldn’t be difficult to figure, assuming it’s a precise 2x.
Thank you! I’m really looking forward to your testing results.
Our first focal plane reticles will be dual focal plane once we click that button
Our first focal plane reticles will be dual focal plane once we click that button
Just read this whole thread. God damn you boys are in the big leagues.
So how much are these? any demos available
$12K TYD.
I wonder how tolerant that collimation is to imperfect alignment from height offsets or rail flex. PVS30/27/UTC do a really good job.
Well fuck, gotta start saving up for slaying swedish pigs...
Looking forward to see some pictures - just for the memes.
I wonder if the TigIR can handle quad crashes, and swamp swimming
Can you share a few pics of the mount also?
Looking forward to see some pictures - just for the memes.
I wonder if the TigIR can handle quad crashes, and swamp swimming
Can you share a few pics of the mount also?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to hunt heffalumps and woozles with the TigIR?Well fuck, gotta start saving up for slaying swedish pigs...
Looking forward to see some pictures - just for the memes.
I wonder if the TigIR can handle quad crashes, and swamp swimming
Can you share a few pics of the mount also?
Well, today was freezing and nasty and my tender complexion didn’t like the thought of going outside, so I chickened out. When it warms up a bit I’ll get back on it.
you ever just wander into a place and realize you have no idea why you’re there, what it’s about, and have never felt poorer in your entire life? This thread sums it up for me haha. I didn’t even feel this out of place at the Porsche dealer looking at a used Volkswagen....
So...
Tigger absolutely loves 3-12x. Every bit as good as the UTC-Xii, even in difficult environmental conditions. It hangs with the Xii up to 15x and falls slightly behind at 16-20x optical magnification, BUT...
The digital zoom on Tigger, especially at 2x, more than compensates for it. In fact, with the scope at 10x and digital zoom at 2x, the image displayed is arguably *better* than the UTC-X/Xii at an optical 20x.
You read that correctly. Tigger rewards scopes with lower magnifications much better than does the UTC.
I presume this is because you’re still optically magnifying a 640x480 VGA display on the UTC all the way to 20x. Whereas on Tigger you’re at half that optical magnification with the added benefit of 50% more native pixels in the display. There’s more resolved detail in the 10x/2x Tigger image.
So, to make things perfect, this is my new favorite Tigger/Clipon day scope:
Tigger absolutely loves 3-12x. Every bit as good as the UTC-Xii, even in difficult environmental conditions. It hangs with the Xii up to 15x and falls slightly behind at 16-20x optical magnification, BUT...
The digital zoom on Tigger, especially at 2x, more than compensates for it. In fact, with the scope at 10x and digital zoom at 2x, the image displayed is arguably *better* than the UTC-X/Xii at an optical 20x.
You read that correctly. Tigger rewards scopes with lower magnifications much better than does the UTC.
I presume this is because you’re still optically magnifying a 640x480 VGA display on the UTC all the way to 20x. Whereas on Tigger you’re at half that optical magnification with the added benefit of 50% more native pixels in the display. There’s more resolved detail in the 10x/2x Tigger image.
So, to make things perfect, this is my new favorite Tigger/Clipon day scope:
Horta got people selling their cars and other valuables to afford the newest thermal gadgets.
He's created a bunch of Tyrone's, who need another hit...
He's created a bunch of Tyrone's, who need another hit...
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And you shall have them! Sending Tigger to Jay. He’s got @jwramp level skillz. I think we’re in for a treat!
I sent it off to Jay / @Surgeon_Shooter at SureShot. He’ll have it today. He has the time and the Faux Toe skill set to give you what you’re all looking for. Between work, weather, and ramping up for another Kenya trip in 30 days, I’ll never get it done.
That said, while I didn’t touch the manual or zoom collimation, I did two quick 5-round groups out of the box on my SR25 and, if there was any POI shift, it was sub-MOA.
Just sharing something I do to check collimation:
Instead of shooting any rounds, I cowitness a vis laser with the day scope at whatever distance I'm checking out. On the same target, I'll place a thermal target (usually a small square of aluminum foil). Slap on my thermal clip on, with the gun on tripod, point the laser into the center of the foil (confirm this with a separate day optic), look thru in thermal view, and note the shift with the reticle.
This helps with being about to see small shifts (if you care). If you have .2 of shift in the same direction of spin drift, you could be doubling your spin drift effect at 1k, which might start mattering? mileage may vary.
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