K+M Arbor Press Problems

[ABL_ZA]

Why does my press require such high lb force to seat bullets?

I am maxing out well beyond 130lb to seat and it's only and its a rapid seat right at the end with significant force. This is obviously wrong.

This is virgin 6.5 creedmoor brass
I am using a 0.262 expanding mandrel and deburring
SAC Infinity seating die (Type 4 base insert with M2 seating stem)
EDIT Shooting 143 ELDX and Lapua brass

It's doing the same thing for .30-06

I think the only possible issue here is I need to chamfer using the K+M controlled depth tapered reamer. I don't see how the neck tension is too high with a .262 mandrel being used.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot?

 

[straightshooter1]

Why does my press require such high lb force to seat bullets?

I am maxing out well beyond 130lb to seat and it's only and its a rapid seat right at the end with significant force. This is obviously wrong.

This is virgin 6.5 creedmoor brass
I am using a 0.262 expanding mandrel and deburring
SAC Infinity seating die (Type 4 base insert with M2 seating stem)

It's doing the same thing for .30-06

I think the only possible issue here is I need to chamfer using the K+M controlled depth tapered reamer. I don't see how the neck tension is too high with a .262 mandrel being used.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot?

You didn't say what bullet you're seating???

As you suspect, it's very likely you need to chamfer those necks. It's not unusual for virgin brass to not have been either chamfered or deburred. I first run a mandrel through the necks of such virgin brass to make sure they're all round (not dented), then chamfer and deburr the case mouths. Then I run the mandrel through them one more time. It's also not a bad idea to load cases and seat a bullets right after sizing as letting them sit to the next day results in enough springback that increases seating pressure significantly in many instances.

 

[Maurygold]

You didn't say what bullet you're seating???

As you suspect, it's very likely you need to chamfer those necks. It's not unusual for virgin brass to not have been either chamfered or deburred. I first run a mandrel through the necks of such virgin brass to make sure they're all round (not dented), then chamfer and deburr the case mouths. Then I run the mandrel through them one more time. It's also not a bad idea to load cases and seat a bullets right after sizing as letting them sit to the next day results in enough springback that increases seating pressure significantly in many instances.

Op, you can ignore that last part about loading shortly after sizing - that’s just not true or necessary.

I’d also be surprised if you have that much seating force from the chamfer if it’s lapua, alpha, adg or Peterson brass.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Virgin brass will sometimes be so clean that the friction results in a very high seating force. Interference fit/neck ID isn't the only factor in "neck tension."

Chamfer isn't the issue. Also, with a .262 mandrel, it's likely springing back to .2615 or .261. So you have .0025 - .003 interference fit along with clean virgin necks.

Other times, the final factory annealing isn't that great. Even the better brass such as Lapua and Peterson. You can see very large differences in seating force (mapped with an AMP press) with virgin brass out of the box vs virgin brass annealed with AMP using the analyze feature.

Lubing the necks will likely lower your seating force to "normal" levels.

 

[ABL_ZA]

You didn't say what bullet you're seating???

As you suspect, it's very likely you need to chamfer those necks. It's not unusual for virgin brass to not have been either chamfered or deburred. I first run a mandrel through the necks of such virgin brass to make sure they're all round (not dented), then chamfer and deburr the case mouths. Then I run the mandrel through them one more time. It's also not a bad idea to load cases and seat a bullets right after sizing as letting them sit to the next day results in enough springback that increases seating pressure significantly in many instances.

@straightshooter1 Yes sorry, shooting 143 ELDX and Lapua brass

Virgin brass will sometimes be so clean that the friction results in a very high seating force. Interference fit/neck ID isn't the only factor in "neck tension."

Chamfer isn't the issue. Also, with a .262 mandrel, it's likely springing back to .2615 or .261. So you have .0025 - .003 interference fit along with clean virgin necks.

Other times, the final factory annealing isn't that great. Even the better brass such as Lapua and Peterson. You can see very large differences in seating force (mapped with an AMP press) with virgin brass out of the box vs virgin brass annealed with AMP using the analyze feature.

Lubing the necks will likely lower your seating force to "normal" levels.

@Rio Precision Gunworks What is the best product to use for lubing the case necks?

 

[CK1.0]

Seating bullets in new brass is terrible without first chamfering the case mouth (besides friction, it prevents sharp edges from scratching bullets too) and then lubing the necks.

IMO the best lube for seating bullets is probably what you already have: case lube on a Q-tip. A quick swab around the inside of the necks (being careful not to touch or contaminate the powder) is all it takes. If you use a spray-on IPA/lanolin mix like I do, wait a bit after spraying the Q-tip for most of the IPA to flash off before you start.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I always chamfer and debur virgin brass. I think some guys use a bigger mandrel for virgin brass too, so it counter acts the sticky of the super clean brass. As has been said, you could use neck lube too which would definitely help but I'd try chamfer first and see.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Chamfering is one of the most overrated processes. Unless it's bad enough to start deforming the jacket, it's fairly negligible. There's plenty of data out there on chamfer vs non chamfer. It rarely makes a huge difference, and it's absolutely not going to be the reason you have high seating force. It will definitely change the seating pressure, but not extreme amounts.

Here's one of many resources out there.

 

[XLR308]

I have always used Lee sizing paste, tried graphite for inside case necks years ago but tossed it and just went back to using Lee since I size cases with it as well.
It will not contaminate powder either.
I don't dilute it just use from the tube, it's slow but I generally reload in smaller batches.
Also have never had a stuck case with it or dented shoulders.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Chamfering is one of the most overrated processes. Unless it's bad enough to start deforming the jacket, it's fairly negligible. There's plenty of data out there on chamfer vs non chamfer. It rarely makes a huge difference, and it's absolutely not going to be the reason you have high seating force. It will definitely change the seating pressure, but not extreme amounts.

Here's one of many resources out there.

Yeah I've seen it.... be that as it may, I've had some lots that look rougher than others too and made my bullet look different so I will stick with chamfering.

 

[918v]

Use imperial graphite dry lube. Don’t use case lube.

 

[Schütze]

Per advise from others here on the hide, neolube is another option. I got a bottle recently but haven’t used it yet.

 

[straightshooter1]

@straightshooter1 Yes sorry, shooting 143 ELDX and Lapua brass

@Rio Precision Gunworks What is the best product to use for lubing the case necks?

As mentioned, chamfering virgin brass is a huge help in seating bullets. . . even boat-tail's like 143 ELDX's. The factory trimming to length often leaves a significant burr on the inside of the mouth. Lubing doesn't really help when there's such a burr on the inside of the mouth.

I don't lube the inside of my necks, even for virgin brass. Though, in the past, what's worked well for me is the Imperial Dry Neck Lube, which I still keep around just in case. After cartridges have been fired, I don't really clean the residue off the inside of the necks. After sizing, using Imperial Sizing Die Wax, I dry tumble with rice and that cleans up the inside of the necks just a little. and leaves behind just a very very little like lube in the necks making for nice smooth seating. Since I anneal after every firing, the annealing leaves behind an abrasive oxidation coating of the surfaces and my method I just mentioned takes care of that too.

 

[Baron23]

Use imperial graphite dry lube. Don’t use case lube.

I too find it effective and easy to use. I just dip the necks into the media and wipe the outside of the neck off with a paper towel (just to keep me from getting it all over myself! haha) before charging and Robert's your mother's brother.

As for neolube...I may try it. Basically (as far as I can tell) its colloidal graphite in ISO. So, I'm not real clear on what the advantage of it over dry powdered graphite is.

Colloidal = A colloid is a mixture in which one substance consisting of microscopically dispersed insoluble particles is suspended throughout another substance.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Virgin brass, especially Lapua, always has a very high seating force required.

Contributors:

- Raw brass against copper + nothing in the neck to lubricate = high friction
- Virgin brass typically is sized very small - smaller necks means more springback after using a mandrel, which means a tighter interference fit
- The annealing job done at the factory is not all that great

I've had my AMP Press max out at 175 lbs seating virgin brass.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I too find it effective and easy to use. I just dip the necks into the media and wipe the outside of the neck off with a paper towel (just to keep me from getting it all over myself! haha) before charging and Robert's your mother's brother.

As for neolube...I may try it. Basically (as far as I can tell) its colloidal graphite in ISO. So, I'm not real clear on what the advantage of it over dry powdered graphite is.

Colloidal = A colloid is a mixture in which one substance consisting of microscopically dispersed insoluble particles is suspended throughout another substance.

For some, the liquid is easier to deal with than powder. And for others.....the other way around.

As far as practical difference, you'll get a much more consistent coat with the liquid. Which will translate to a more consistent seating (you'll need something like the amp to see this, not an analog gauge).

Now, is there a difference on paper or a big enough one to be exploited......completely different conversation. Last I knew, Lou Murdica is using powder.....so, it obviously works well.

 

[Schütze]

For some, the liquid is easier to deal with than powder. And for others.....the other way around.

As far as practical difference, you'll get a much more consistent coat with the liquid. Which will translate to a more consistent seating (you'll need something like the amp to see this, not an analog gauge).

Now, is there a difference on paper or a big enough one to be exploited......completely different conversation. Last I knew, Lou Murdica is using powder.....so, it obviously works well.

If you would use the liquid form, would you suggest to just slightly coat the neck or the bullet too?

 

[Rocketmandb]

If you would use the liquid form, would you suggest to just slightly coat the neck or the bullet too?

I put a little bit in one of those shallow jewelry jars, filled to about the neck length. Then I dip it in such that the case bottoms out and coats the full neck, inside and out. Then I wipe the outside with a rag. Takes about 2 seconds per case.

 

[CK1.0]

I know there's probably some reason unbeknownst to me why some guys prefer to mess with graphite... but I've used case lube on a Q-tip for more than a couple of years now and haven't had an SD higher than a 6 over thousands of rounds since... so I stick with it because it's easy.

When I swab the necks, I do 100 at a time while they're in the loading blocks using 2 wetted Q-tips (25 cases per side), takes like 1 minute if you try to go slow. I just swab the top ~25% of the inside of the neck real quick, and using Bubba-science, I imagine the lube spreads itself out evenly in a nice thin coat as the bullet is seated... easy, consistent, and repeatable.

 

[memilanuk]

Virgin brass, especially Lapua, always has a very high seating force required.

Contributors:

- Raw brass against copper + nothing in the neck to lubricate = high friction
- Virgin brass typically is sized very small - smaller necks means more springback after using a mandrel, which means a tighter interference fit
- The annealing job done at the factory is not all that great

I've had my AMP Press max out at 175 lbs seating virgin brass.

I've probably said this before, somewhere on some forum, but a number of years ago at either FCNC or SWN I hit up the Lapua rep about why the initial seating forces for virgin Lapua brass was so ridiculously high, despite having the neck sized appropriately i.e. running a mandrel through it. What he told me - and I've heard it / had it confirmed by others - was that it was an artifact of the rinsing process they use during production. His recommendation was to tumble it for a while in some used/'dirty' media - something with a little dust to it.

I did that - and know others who have done that - and it made a *marked* difference in the perceived seating force. AMP presses didn't exist back then, and the other seating force gauges (K&M, 21st Century) tend to disagree quite a bit about what the actual readings may be, so no, I don't have hard numbers on how much it improved things.

One of many reasons I'm not a fan of using virgin Lapua brass for big matches without a lot of tinkering/testing to be sure it's going to behave the way I expect it to.

 

[918v]

I have never had issues with seating bullets in virgin lapua brass. I apply graphite, run through a mandrel die, apply graphite, wipe the neck.

Some manufacturers apply carnauba wax after annealing which smooths out bullet seating.

Just remember that seating bullets into an annealed neck will be hard because of the zinc oxide causing additional friction. So we have to put a thin film of something in between the neck and the bullet.

 

[Lawnboi]

Virgin brass easy fix.

Size it with a wax or wet lube. Graphite dosnt work on the freshly annealed neck.

Dry tumble in some dirty media, ie has some carbon/old lube in it.

Problem solved.

 

[918v]

Graphite dosnt work on the freshly annealed neck.

BS

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If you would use the liquid form, would you suggest to just slightly coat the neck or the bullet too?

In my testing, most any coating was less effective on the bullet rather than in the neck. It was limited to powder graphite, neolube, and Hornady one shot on a Q tip.

I was hoping to just dip bullets in neolube as that’s easy and clean.

I tried:

Neck lube only
Bullet lube only
Both

Using Amp press, bullet only was the least consistent. Since there’s an interference fit from neck, I’m assuming it was rubbing a significant amount of lube off while seating.

Neck only and both were almost identical. Basically meaning the lube on bullet wasn’t needed as long as neck is lubed.


This was all just using the Amp graphs. Like most things, it was pretty negligible on target and chrono.

I’m sure you can get away with doing bullet only, but it doesn’t take too long to do the neck and know you’re getting the most consistent result as far as seating consistency.

Like most things, there’s different ways that work and it comes down to personal preference.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Virgin brass easy fix.

Size it with a wax or wet lube. Graphite dosnt work on the freshly annealed neck.

Dry tumble in some dirty media, ie has some carbon/old lube in it.

Problem solved.

You’ll have to give a pretty good explanation how a coating of graphite between the bullet and neck is somehow negated from previous annealing.

I don’t know if anyone who has had this issue.

 

[Schütze]

In my testing, most any coating was less effective on the bullet rather than in the neck. It was limited to powder graphite, neolube, and Hornady one shot on a Q tip.

I was hoping to just dip bullets in neolube as that’s easy and clean.

I tried:

Neck lube only
Bullet lube only
Both

Using Amp press, bullet only was the least consistent. Since there’s an interference fit from neck, I’m assuming it was rubbing a significant amount of lube off while seating.

Neck only and both were almost identical. Basically meaning the lube on bullet wasn’t needed as long as neck is lubed.


This was all just using the Amp graphs. Like most things, it was pretty negligible on target and chrono.

I’m sure you can get away with doing bullet only, but it doesn’t take too long to do the neck and know you’re getting the most consistent result as far as seating consistency.

Like most things, there’s different ways that work and it comes down to personal preference.

You saved me a lot of work with sharing this, thanks a lot. It also makes sense the way you describe it. Even that I agree with most about results on the target count more than anything your testing with the amp graphs definitely makes things a lot easier.

 

[Haney]

BS

+1

Bullshit meter is pegged in this thread .

 

[Schütze]

+1

Bullshit meter is pegged in this thread .

Great contribution of yours as usual! Are you ever able to have a regular conversation with males?

Got your teeth knocked out perhaps and decided to become a keyboard ?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You saved me a lot of work with sharing this, thanks a lot. It also makes sense the way you describe it. Even that I agree with most about results on the target count more than anything your testing with the amp graphs definitely makes things a lot easier.

No prob. Again, I doubt you’ll be able to tell much of a difference on paper. Possibly F Open or some BR disciplines. But for what most on the hide are doing, don’t worry about getting too much into the weeds. Unless you really want to.

And best just to use the ignore feature. Helps a lot with people who just want to argue for no real reason.

 

[Lawnboi]

You’ll have to give a pretty good explanation how a coating of graphite between the bullet and neck is somehow negated from previous annealing.

I don’t know if anyone who has had this issue.

I went to community college, so I don’t have anything scientific for you.

I tried dry lube, even a lot, and still got seating force all over the place.

Once I swapped to what I wrote above, Iv had zero problems with stickiness of the brass. Part of it’s the lube, part of its tumbling to knock down that rough feeling you feel post anneal.

Anyways I can’t take all the credit. I noticed galling when I began annealing and went down a rabbit hole on how to make it not happen, that pretty much involved giving up on graphite lube on my necks. I got the idea directly from the AMP faq page, maybe email them and ask about specifics. Here’s a screen shot. Iv found the same goes for the inside and outside of the case.

 

[Lawnboi]

Here’s more direct from the amp faq page.

Iv got a bunch of dry lube I havnt touched since figuring it out it dosnt do much on an annealed neck.

 

[918v]

How are you sizing the case?

 

[Lawnboi]

I re read what I wrote.

I didn’t mean size, just mandrel.

All else remains the same, from what Iv experienced.

 

[Rocketmandb]

FWIW, I have used graphite extensively, and, like @Rio Precision Gunworks, I've had no problems with graphite sticking to the case.

HOWEVER...

I read plenty about people having issues and I wanted to try to understand why. The only thing that came to mind was that I must be doing something else differently during case prep. I reviewed my process, and the most likely culprit was how I clean cases. I use Boretech Case Clean in an ultrasonic, then on removal I do a slight rinse and take a bottle brush to the necks to brush out any loose carbon. On one batch of brass, instead of doing a slight rinse, I did an extensive one. I found that graphite did not do as well on that batch of cases.

My theory - and that's all it is at this point - is that the soapy residue left behind by the wet cleaning process enables graphite to "stick" better.