Load development or not?

[mrcheesemoose]

The guys saying hybrids didn’t work used a fucking Shaw and criterion barrel (what are those?!?!?). And the other guys is talking about crimping for accuracy. Yeah…. I’m crazy.

Never said they didn’t work. I said they weren’t as good as sierras and hornadys out of those barrels. Being loyal to a good brand is nice and all, but there are other barrel manufacturers out there that make just as good, and some maybe better, barrels as bartelin.

 

[Maurygold]

Never said they didn’t work. I said they weren’t as good as sierras and hornadys out of those barrels. Being loyal to a good brand is nice and all, but there are other barrel manufacturers out there that make just as good, and some maybe better, barrels as bartelin.

Bartlein is the king of 30 cal. Krieger outshines them slightly below 30 cal. And I think proof is outstanding but probably third in line. I shot a lot of f class and we all landed on the bartlein at 30 and krieger below. I’m not a loyalist but I’ve spent some time around precision.

You almost have to wonder why krieger and bartlein are the most common barrels at precision events and not whatever a criterion is? Don’t say you’re shooting the best components and that’s the shit it’s going through.

 

[XP1K]

The guys saying hybrids didn’t work used a fucking Shaw and criterion barrel (what are those?!?!?). And the other guys is talking about crimping for accuracy. Yeah…. I’m crazy.

In one instance I mentioned crimping. And I was specific about only having done it in an ar15 when none of the combinations I had on hand would work. And it worked. .004" crimp and it got me under moa and an SD around 10-12 vs 17-18. I crimp nothing else, not even 308 gas gun loads. Well, and 22lr but that's a whole other debate we won't get into.

But I digress. I've got one more post in this one then I'm back to being a spectator.

 

[XP1K]

Last one. As recommended, cci br2, 45gr varget, 2.800" oal, pretty standard stuff.
It grouped okay, I flung #2, called it bad and it was. Redeemed myself with #3, #4 made me say wtf, #5 back in. Probably as good as this junk lilja is going to do. Could have been the guy that chambered it, (me). I don't have a hundred rounds through it yet though so we'll see. Sd crept up a little. Might ought to try the 210's, probably have enough to run out the varget I've got left.

 

[Maurygold]

You did say “a barrel”, not “a bartelin barrel”. But the Shaw is pretty good. I’m happy with it. Have a bartelin as well, and I like the Shaw better

Wait just a second here. I went and looked at what a Shaw barrel is. (To see if it was something legit like Blake barrels). It is not. Are you talking all this shooting: tikka, savage, Ruger, sig, or factory 700 action(trued or not)???

 

[Chris1972]

I don’t even think the owner of Shaw would say it’s better than a Bartlien. They’re not even in the same market.

 

[CK1.0]

I'm firmly a "pick a speed" guy, not much load development for me anymore beyond figuring out: x grains of powder = y MV.

The longer I do this shit, and as I've gotten better as a shooter and as a reloader, I no longer believe there's a "perfect recipe" we should be wasting time, gas, and barrel-life trying to discover. And things that I used to think mattered a lot (like seating depth/bullet jump for example), I no longer think matter nearly as much.

What matters?

Try to make every single round come out the same as the next as possible, period. Every powder charge/drop the same to the nearest kernel. Anneal every firing so the brass acts the same every cycle, etc.

It's not really about "bad load" versus "good load", it's about the same load that does the same thing, over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

[mrcheesemoose]

Wait just a second here. I went and looked at what a Shaw barrel is. (To see if it was something legit like Blake barrels). It is not. Are you talking all this shooting: tikka, savage, Ruger, sig, or factory 700 action(trued or not)???

Shaw makes custom actions, custom rifles, and custom barrels. It’s not just stock barrels for stock guns. Probably should dig deeper before assuming

 

[kthomas]

I'm at the point where my load development process is to shoot a ladder to find the velocity I want, and then load up a bunch of ammo at that powder charge, with projectiles about 20 thou off the lands (typically hybrids).

The more I learn and reload, the more I realize small nuances in steps and recipes don't matter. Use good components, use good equipment, and be as consistent as possible for each reloading step.

There are no velocity "nodes". There are no precision "nodes". There's really no secrets to reloading, despite what many will tell you.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Your dumb

You're...

 

[Maurygold]

Shaw makes custom actions, custom rifles, and custom barrels. It’s not just stock barrels for stock guns. Probably should dig deeper before assuming

Yeah but given these are shitty budget barrels to begin with I bet you’re just trying to be cheap and put a prefit on a factory action. Even if you’re not these are clearly cheap-o budget barrels. Lol at you giving any opinion when this is the shit you shoot.

Seriously you’re gonna tell me a fucking $200 barrel from Shaw is on par with a world class bartlein barrel - you’re fucking crazy.

 

[Maurygold]

Shaw makes custom actions, custom rifles, and custom barrels. It’s not just stock barrels for stock guns. Probably should dig deeper before assuming

You got on here to brag about a load using federal brass. Yeah. I’ve read enough to invalidate anything you ever saw for eternity…..

Your friend with the crimp die wants to hangout.

 

[supercorndogs]

It's funny cause there is guy in here who literally develops loads for a factory ammo. This person has posted many times about good loads and bad loads.

To tell someone they may need a bigger sample or to be a better shooter to see the diffrence between a good load and bad. Is not to say there is no diffrence.

Yes, we know your 6Bwhatever will shoot anything. It doesn't mean you finally cracked the code to reloading. It's normal. They all do.

There is big diffrence between there being no diffrence, and not being able to tell or exploit the diffrence.

 

[ironpony52]

I will still always stand by, even lesser equipment is far better than 90% of all shooters. It takes lot of time and dedication. I say this because the guy that mentored me was one of those. He could literally shoot anyones gun and beat them with it.
Some people got it and some never will.
Time and dedication, this guy spends hours a day perfecting his craft.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

Yeah but given these are shitty budget barrels to begin with I bet you’re just trying to be cheap and put a prefit on a factory action. Even if you’re not these are clearly cheap-o budget barrels. Lol at you giving any opinion when this is the shit you shoot.

Seriously you’re gonna tell me a fucking $200 barrel from Shaw is on par with a world class bartlein barrel - you’re fucking crazy.

You gotta stop making yourself look stupid by assuming things. Add a zero to the end of that 200, that’s how much it cost me. You probably should learn to read, I mentioned I have a bartelin barrel. In fact I have a couple of them.

You got on here to brag about a load using federal brass. Yeah. I’ve read enough to invalidate anything you ever saw for eternity…..

Your friend with the crimp die wants to hangout.

I tried using multiple types of brass with this load, lapua, star line, federal, etc. 30 shot aggregates, and guess what, no change it accuracy with a change in brass. So why would I waste my money buying expansive brass? Heck I could probably put the brass doesn’t even matter for that load.

Yah ledzeps right, you’re crazy, and arrogant, and stupid. Not worth my time.

 

[Maurygold]

You gotta stop making yourself look stupid by assuming things. Add a zero to the end of that 200, that’s how much it cost me. You probably should learn to read, I mentioned I have a bartelin barrel. In fact I have a couple of them.



I tried using multiple types of brass with this load, lapua, star line, federal, etc. 30 shot aggregates, and guess what, no change it accuracy with a change in brass. So why would I waste my money buying expansive brass? Heck I could probably put the brass doesn’t even matter for that load.

Yah ledzeps right, you’re crazy, and arrogant, and stupid. Not worth my time.

So I am right - it is a factory action. From the website - $210 blanks.

Lol if you think federal brass is okay - our ideas of accuracy our worlds seperate.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

what an idiot

 

[Maurygold]

View attachment 8406473
what an idiot

Hahahhahahahaha it’s not just a budget barrel but A WHOLE BUDGET GUN built on a $200 barrel. Priceless bit this has been.

 

[mrcheesemoose]

Hahahhahahahaha it’s not just a budget barrel but A WHOLE BUDGET GUN built on a $200 barrel. Priceless bit this has been.

Yes because somehow $2000 for the barrel is “$200”. Yah. Your a f*cking idiot

 

[MO Fugga]

I actually really enjoy tinkering with loads but since having a family I'm much shorter on time.
If I could shoot from/ near my loading bench I'm sure I would tinker a lot more but driving to and from the shooting spot is a pain.
Maybe I need a mobile loading bench.

There's a lot to be said about being able to shoot where you live. I hate driving.

 

[Maurygold]

Yes because somehow $2000 for the barrel is “$200”. Yah. Your a f*cking idiot

What you just posted is a whole gun for 2550. That is not the barrel price?

The blanks are $210.

 

[XP1K]

All this hate for federal brass. Why does it seem to work so well for federal ? My 308 loves it some 168 fgmm. Loaded in federal brass.

These two groups are a year apart. The first group only has four in the bull. First one was a sighter. Evedently federal knows how to load without load development. Calipers zeroed on a 308 bullet.

 

[Haney]

Yeah but given these are shitty budget barrels to begin with I bet you’re just trying to be cheap and put a prefit on a factory action. Even if you’re not these are clearly cheap-o budget barrels. Lol at you giving any opinion when this is the shit you shoot.

Seriously you’re gonna tell me a fucking $200 barrel from Shaw is on par with a world class bartlein barrel - you’re fucking crazy.

I used to enjoy how you stirring up all the know it all trolls that ruin this sub-forum . Now I dislike you just as much as them . You are just another ankle biter screaming for attention . Not very bright either.

 

[supercorndogs]

All this hate for federal brass. Why does it seem to work so well for federal ? My 308 loves it some 168 fgmm. Loaded in federal brass.

These two groups are a year apart. The first group only has four in the bull. First one was a sighter. Evedently federal knows how to load without load development. Calipers zeroed on a 308 bullet. View attachment 8406948View attachment 8406950

Ammo manufactures have people that work up their loads. They do both accuracy and pressure testing.

 

[XP1K]

Ammo manufactures have people that work up their loads. They do both accuracy and pressure testing.

But why do their loads work so good in so many different rifles? What do they know that we don't? They're for sure not loading each round with the care that we are. But most factory fodder seems to work in so many different chambers, barrels, twist rates (to a certain degree.)
Why ?

 

[straightshooter1]

All this hate for federal brass. Why does it seem to work so well for federal ? My 308 loves it some 168 fgmm. Loaded in federal brass.

These two groups are a year apart. The first group only has four in the bull. First one was a sighter. Evedently federal knows how to load without load development. Calipers zeroed on a 308 bullet. View attachment 8406948View attachment 8406950

I've have lots of Federal brass that I've used (and still use on occasion) and they've performed well for me also. The facts are that the Federal brass is relatively soft and doesn't stand up to high pressure loads for very long where primer pockets get too loose. There's been many reports for them only lasting only 4 or 5 reloads. I've not had that experience as I've always got over 10 firings on them and my current batch has been fired 10 times and I run moderate loads and occasionally pushing max pressures. My Federal brass is not as uniform as some others, like Lapua, Peterson or Alpha brass, but with a little work they can be.

Here's an X-ray fluorescense spectrometry analysis that compares some cases, including Federal's:

 

[Tony41388]

Anyone have some info, tips, etc. on load development using the ladder system? Anything would be appreciated, Thanks

 

[straightshooter1]

Anyone have some info, tips, etc. on load development using the ladder system? Anything would be appreciated, Thanks

Use a one shot ladder to find where you begin to see pressure signs, as this typically helps determine a good starting point. Use a 3 or 5 shot ladder on a series of targets that you can see the relationship from one group to another and the shapes of the groups. Do it at 100 yds. so you don't have weather reports involved. It's only what you see on targets that's going to really help you with load development.

 

[Maurygold]

Anyone have some info, tips, etc. on load development using the ladder system? Anything would be appreciated, Thanks

Shoot .2 grain increments through a powder window up to book max. ie: 64-66gn for my 300 win mag. 1 load for each charge and go shoot over chrono. You’re looking for the window where despite the charge going up the speed doesn’t change. This is the most forgiving charge and the ladder test stops here and you can start to look at seating depth.

 

[Maurygold]

I used to enjoy how you stirring up all the know it all trolls that ruin this sub-forum . Now I dislike you just as much as them . You are just another ankle biter screaming for attention . Not very bright either.

That’s okay. Even though I’m “crazy” and “not very bright” I’ve still gathered up the ability to reload and shoot better than 99.99% of people on here. Pictures for the haters (since they’re usually talking shit with factory guns like @mrcheesemoose ):

 

[Maurygold]

Use a one shot ladder to find where you begin to see pressure signs, as this typically helps determine a good starting point. Use a 3 or 5 shot ladder on a series of targets that you can see the relationship from one group to another and the shapes of the groups. Do it at 100 yds. so you don't have weather reports involved. It's only what you see on targets that's going to really help you with load development.

This is what happens when you get advice from people who don’t shoot. 10000% don’t even need to look at the target. The only thing that matters is the chrono for ladder testing.

 

[supercorndogs]

Shoot .2 grain increments through a powder window up to book max. ie: 64-66gn for my 300 win mag. 1 load for each charge and go shoot over chrono. You’re looking for the window where despite the charge going up the speed doesn’t change. This is the most forgiving charge and the ladder test stops here and you can start to look at seating depth.

You suggest a 1 shot ladder looking for velocity flat spots. You are just leaving it up to chance.

 

[Maurygold]

You suggest a 1 shot ladder looking for velocity flat spots. You are just leaving it up to chance.

I’m not. You’ve clearly never done this type of loading. Go to an f class match or something with real precision and this is how they’re doing it.

Want me to post some chronos - if I’m crazy you should be shooting much better sd/es than me……

Or you can keep shooting a bunch of 5 shot groups and arbitrarily pick shapes for no reason - if only someone put about a book with stats about how that doesn’t work……

 

[supercorndogs]

I’m not. You’ve clearly never done this type of loading. Go to an f class match or something with real precision and this is how they’re doing it.

Want me to post some chronos - if I’m crazy you should be shooting much better sd/es than me……

Or you can keep shooting a bunch of 5 shot groups and arbitrarily pick shapes for no reason - if only someone put about a book with stats about how that doesn’t work……

I think you are. I am not sure why you are always swinging your purse around. Makes you seem more like a petulant blowhard than any sort of expert.

We know from stats, one shot chrono ladders don't work. We know from statistics why chrono ladders show false flat spots and it has to do with sample size. Not more powder not creating more pressure.

You want me to believe everyone who shoots f class is doing load development the same way?

 

[Maurygold]

I think you are. I am not sure why you are always swinging your purse around. Makes you seem more like a petulant blowhard than any sort of expert.

We know from stats, one shot chrono ladders don't work. We know from statistics why chrono ladders show false flat spots and it has to do with sample size. Not more powder not creating more pressure.

You want me to believe everyone who shoots f class is doing load development the same way?

Because I’m shooting better than you despite you calling me crazy and acting like what I’m doing could never work. But actually - it works better than what you’re doing. Here’s my chrono group from yesterday….

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Because I’m shooting better than you despite you calling me crazy and acting like what I’m doing could never work. But actually - it works better than what you’re doing.

Actually looking for velocity flat spots with single shot ladders over a chrono doesn't work at all.

It just appears to give good results because your rifle is consistent enough that you can essentially pick any charge at random (which is what you're doing with a chrono ladder) and it'll shoot lights out. You're falling for an illusion borne from the small sample size.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you posted that's the method you use. Hell, you still might be.

The chrono ladder is the single easiest bad load development method to disprove, because the sample size is so small that if you run the test 10 times you'll get 8-10 slightly different answers. And if you average the 10 repetitions together you'll get something that approximates a straight line. The lower your ES, the more quickly the line will straighten out. The more reps you do, the straighter the line gets.

It's really a great example of how we can be misled by small sample sizes and statistical noise, and might be the easiest to demonstrate to most folks compared to some of the methods that rely on group size.

 

[Maurygold]

Actually looking for velocity flat spots with single shot ladders over a chrono doesn't work at all.

It just appears to give good results because your rifle is consistent enough that you can essentially pick any charge at random (which is what you're doing with a chrono ladder) and it'll shoot lights out. You're falling for an illusion borne from the small sample size.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you posted that's the method you use. Hell, you still might be.

The chrono ladder is the single easiest bad load development method to disprove, because the sample size is so small that if you run the test 10 times you'll get 8-10 slightly different answers. And if you average the 10 repetitions together you'll get something that approximates a straight line. The lower your ES, the more quickly the line will straighten out. The more reps you do, the straighter the line gets.

It's really a great example of how we can be misled by small sample sizes and statistical noise, and might be the easiest to demonstrate to most folks compared to some of the methods that rely on group size.

No you do not get a flat sloping velocity curve - that right there tells me you have never done one. If it’s so out there and doesn’t work how am I shooting such quality sds?

You’re gonna post some proof of how this is working better than my method right?? I have proof of it working…

Here’s more proof……

 

[Tx_Aggie]

No you do not get a flat sloping velocity curve - that right there tells me you have never done one. If it’s so out there and doesn’t work how am I shooting such quality sds?

You’re gonna post some proof of how this is working better than my method right?? I have proof of it working…

Here’s more proof……
View attachment 8407103

Great, you shot 14 shots of a single charge over the chrono. Very nice.

How does any of that disprove what I said?

 

[Maurygold]

Great, you shot 14 shots of a single charge over the chrono. Very nice.

How does any of that disprove what I said?

You’re saying you can’t do load development the exact way I’m doing it. My groups with low sd suggest it is working much better than you suggest it can. If what you’re doing is so much better let’s see a much better sd/ es????

To me - it looks like my method is better than others because it results in better groups than others. You want to throw shade at me? How about a single ounce of proof what you do is better than what I do? I provided multiple chronos including the one from yesterday.

People are always talking on here about how what they do is better but whenever I provide proof they suddenly disappear and don’t provide any proof to back what they are saying.

 

[Maurygold]

Everyone, say bye @Tx_Aggie cause he won’t be back with proof of anything. This is always where his kind leave.

They throw shade then disappear into darkness when proof comes out.

 

[XP1K]

I've have lots of Federal brass that I've used (and still use on occasion) and they've performed well for me also. The facts are that the Federal brass is relatively soft and doesn't stand up to high pressure loads for very long where primer pockets get too loose. There's been many reports for them only lasting only 4 or 5 reloads. I've not had that experience as I've always got over 10 firings on them and my current batch has been fired 10 times and I run moderate loads and occasionally pushing max pressures. My Federal brass is not as uniform as some others, like Lapua, Peterson or Alpha brass, but with a little work they can be.

Here's an X-ray fluorescense spectrometry analysis that compares some cases, including Federal's:

View attachment 8407011

Before I found this place, federal and remington were my preferred choices. Always got decent results. If I could get down to 1/2" at a hundred I was happy. I rarely shot across a chronograph in those days though.

When I got back into a 300winmag again about ten years ago I bought 200 pieces of federal. Still have some of it. I did weight sort it. I've got a bad habit of leaning on my winmag pretty hard and it's held up well. Mostly shooting Norma in the winmag these days.

For 308 I've got a pile of federal from all the gmm I've shot. And a few pieces of lapua because some ammo I bought was loaded in lapua brass. I will say, it is nice to work with.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

You’re saying you can’t do load development the exact way I’m doing it. My groups with low sd suggest it is working much better than you suggest it can. If what you’re doing is so much better let’s see a much better sd/ es????

To me - it looks like my method is better than others because it results in better groups than others. You want to throw shade at me? How about a single ounce of proof what you do is better than what I do? I provided multiple chronos including the one from yesterday.

People are always talking on here about how what they do is better but whenever I provide proof they suddenly disappear and don’t provide any proof to back what they are saying.

You're behaving like a dick, which is complete unwarranted.

I'm just suggesting to you that maybe the reason you're getting good results is because your rifle is inherently very precise, and your methods for building ammo are dialed in where it matters, and not because the test that you're using to pick a charge weight is some secret sauce.

I'm going to quote myself:

Actually looking for velocity flat spots with single shot ladders over a chrono doesn't work at all.

It just appears to give good results because your rifle is consistent enough that you can essentially pick any charge at random (which is what you're doing with a chrono ladder) and it'll shoot lights out. You're falling for an illusion borne from the small sample size.

In other words, correlation =/= causation. If you think your method is really providing you the best answer (a consistent and repeatable velocity flat spot at a specific range of charges) then the next step is to try to falsify that. The easiest way to do this with your pet method is by repeating the test a few times, since the sample size is so low. Or just pick what you think are your best and worst charge weights and shoot 20-30 of each one over the chrono.

Also, why are you so emotionally invested in this?

I'll see if I can find an easily linked article debunking the "chrono ladder" method. If not, maybe I'll load up some ammo for the Dasher and do a round of tests myself.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You guys are either being trolled, or you're dealing with someone who actually believes the more power = not more velocity.

Either way, you're wasting your time.

 

[supercorndogs]

You’re saying you can’t do load development the exact way I’m doing it. My groups with low sd suggest it is working much better than you suggest it can. If what you’re doing is so much better let’s see a much better sd/ es????

To me - it looks like my method is better than others because it results in better groups than others. You want to throw shade at me? How about a single ounce of proof what you do is better than what I do? I provided multiple chronos including the one from yesterday.

People are always talking on here about how what they do is better but whenever I provide proof they suddenly disappear and don’t provide any proof to back what they are saying.

No, he is saying the method you are using is a random charge weight aelector based on over lapping deviation because of the small sample size.

The proof has been hashed and rehashed here many times. It's really a simple statistics problem.

 

[Maurygold]

You guys are either being trolled, or you're dealing with someone who actually believes the more power = not more velocity.

Either way, you're wasting your time.

Show me a flat sloping ladder test and I’ll change my mind. That’s not how they work.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Show me a flat sloping ladder test and I’ll change my mind. That’s not how they work.

If you shoot enough samples at each charge weight you will get results that are essentially a straight line.

If you use a single sample per charge, you'll end up with a jagged line with what appear to be flat spots, or even reductions in velocity with an increase in charge, but this can be explained by velocity ES alone, even in rifle systems that are extremely precise.

 

[Maurygold]

You're behaving like a dick, which is complete unwarranted.

I'm just suggesting to you that maybe the reason you're getting good results is because your rifle is inherently very precise, and your methods for building ammo are dialed in where it matters, and not because the test that you're using to pick a charge weight is some secret sauce.

I'm going to quote myself:



In other words, correlation =/= causation. If you think your method is really providing you the best answer (a consistent and repeatable velocity flat spot at a specific range of charges) then the next step is to try to falsify that. The easiest way to do this with your pet method is by repeating the test a few times, since the sample size is so low. Or just pick what you think are your best and worst charge weights and shoot 20-30 of each one over the chrono.

Also, why are you so emotionally invested in this?

I'll see if I can find an easily linked article debunking the "chrono ladder" method. If not, maybe I'll load up some ammo for the Dasher and do a round of tests myself.

Asking for proof of your method being better makes me a dick??

You suggest my way is total bs. I provided proof. You provided nothing to suggest your way is better other than insulting me - yet I am the dick?

I know my way works because I go to the range and shoot very small sds with my load. Very few people show up here with proof of any better methods/ results. I’ve asked for proof your way is working better for you and you’re shooting better sd than me - yet you once again insulted me as opposed to providing proof of anything.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

No, he is saying the method you are using is a random charge weight aelector based on over lapping deviation because of the small sample size.

The proof has been hashed and rehashed here many times. It's really a simple statistics problem.

Thank you. That's a really concise way of putting it.

 

[Maurygold]

Thank you. That's a really concise way of putting it.

Anything but proof from you……

 

[XP1K]

Does anybody have a "known good" load for a 155 in a 308 ?

@Maurygold you said you shoot a 300winmag, I've got Norma brass, H1k, Fed. 215m's and 215 hybrids, give me a known good one. Trued 700 with a 26" bartlein heavy Palma. Throated to run a 215 right at the neck shoulder junction. I'd have to double check max oal but going off memory I think it was 3.715"ish.


Pictures so you don't think I'm bulling you.

Apparently my wife shoots it better than I do. Low right group is her first ever attempt at 1,000 (1,060 technically) with this rifle. 215 hybrids, and that mediocre magpro. 12x20 target.