My Sako shoots sub MOA with SK match
Same with the Norma match (all I could find for a while) minus a occasional flyer.
If he’s 2.5 MOA with SK I’d say it’s more than just the ammo.
- Thread starter Jayjay1
- Start date
My Sako shoots sub MOA with SK match
Same with the Norma match (all I could find for a while) minus a occasional flyer.
If he’s 2.5 MOA with SK I’d say it’s more than just the ammo.
Agreed for that specific ammo
Hello again,
have been on the range yesterday and did as recommended (thanks for that again).
Unfortunately I´ve been at 3 dealers and none of them had Eley or Lapua in store, because they are not asked around here.
So I began to test what I could find.
Cleaned the barrel with the bore snake and CLP, then made 20 shots for fun and after that I tried groups.
Had to shoot 30+ rounds each cartridge, what fatigued me quite a bit, and after 5 different brands my neck began to become sour.
Best group was with RWS Rifle Match S, looked quite promising with four shots in a 0.5" group at 100m and one shot opening it up to 1".
Then I went one with two other RWS cartridges, thinking I wouldn´t have to shot "settle-rounds" with the same brand, but that didn´t turn out well.
Although those three cartridges came from the same manufacturer, I couldn´t switch between them, the starting groups were a mess.
So, when I was already done after two hours of concentrated shooting, I wanted to confirm that group with RWS Rifle Match S, which didn´t work.
Probably it was me losing concentration.
Thoughts which are cruising to my brain since yesterday.
The standard barrel from Lothar Walther is 18", my 22" was left from a customer which didn´t take it, so I got a discount.
I think, with those slow 22lr rounds, the longer barrel is a disadvantage, because the bullet is longer in the barrel and every slightly movement will lead to bigger groups than with a shorter barrel or faster cartridge.
Secondly my 15 yo Harris bipod seems to have some play, I think I should replace it.
Worst thing, the feet are rolling, I mean, the inner rods where the rubber feet are fixed at are rotating.
And finally, the surface of the benches at our range is a pita.
It is a very smooth kind of linoleum on it, so that you can´t load the bipod.
So quite some stuff to do.
have been on the range yesterday and did as recommended (thanks for that again).
Unfortunately I´ve been at 3 dealers and none of them had Eley or Lapua in store, because they are not asked around here.
So I began to test what I could find.
Cleaned the barrel with the bore snake and CLP, then made 20 shots for fun and after that I tried groups.
Had to shoot 30+ rounds each cartridge, what fatigued me quite a bit, and after 5 different brands my neck began to become sour.
Best group was with RWS Rifle Match S, looked quite promising with four shots in a 0.5" group at 100m and one shot opening it up to 1".
Then I went one with two other RWS cartridges, thinking I wouldn´t have to shot "settle-rounds" with the same brand, but that didn´t turn out well.
Although those three cartridges came from the same manufacturer, I couldn´t switch between them, the starting groups were a mess.
So, when I was already done after two hours of concentrated shooting, I wanted to confirm that group with RWS Rifle Match S, which didn´t work.
Probably it was me losing concentration.
Thoughts which are cruising to my brain since yesterday.
The standard barrel from Lothar Walther is 18", my 22" was left from a customer which didn´t take it, so I got a discount.
I think, with those slow 22lr rounds, the longer barrel is a disadvantage, because the bullet is longer in the barrel and every slightly movement will lead to bigger groups than with a shorter barrel or faster cartridge.
Secondly my 15 yo Harris bipod seems to have some play, I think I should replace it.
Worst thing, the feet are rolling, I mean, the inner rods where the rubber feet are fixed at are rotating.
And finally, the surface of the benches at our range is a pita.
It is a very smooth kind of linoleum on it, so that you can´t load the bipod.
So quite some stuff to do.
JJ1 - this is a lot to process and you are getting some great advice. 22lr accuracy is not magic. There is a process of minimizing all of the variables that are within your control. The speed and consistency of the ammo in one. For example: All Lapua ammo has a speed code. It is the first two numbers of the lot number. 22, 23, 24,...28, 29, 30 etc. If your lot number is 24 that means that the tested speed of that lot is 324 meters/s. I use Lapua ammo almost exclusively. Why? Because it works best in most of my rifles. Eley is also good. Nothing else compares. There are three main grades of Lapua excluding the biathlon ammo for cold weather. They range from good to best with Center X, Midas+, and X-Act. You can find good lots of each. If you test lots, you will find that for a specific rifle about 3 or 4 out of 10 fo CX will shoot well, 4-6 for Midas and 6-8 of X-Act. When I lot test a rifle, I will start with a slow lot, like 22 speed and then move progressively faster until I find one that groups best.
Now, cleaning is critical. Get a good rod and rod guide and remember that CZ factory bbls have bores slightly smaller in diam than most 22's and many 22 sized rods will scrape the inside of the bbl. Use a .20 or .17 or 4mm rod with a 22 cal jag and small patches or 20cal jag with larger patches. You can test Lapua & SK lots back to back without cleaning because they are all made with the same bullets and lube but if you go to RWS or Eley, you must clean the bbl first or spend many rounds reseasoning the bbl. This is a variable you can control. A properly cleaned bbl will settle in after about 5-15 rds. When I shoot matches I clean after each card and then fire 10rds min to season the bbl before shooting for score.
Wind. You do not control it but it can be managed. Test only in calm conditions at first. Get flags. 3-4 of them. A simple 3 ft steel rod driven in the ground with an empty cartridge on top that fits loosely will work. Epoxy a small wire hook or fishing swivel onto the top of the cartridge and to that hook a 18" piece of plastic engineers tape. Drive these into the ground starting about 10-15y from your bench and in 10y increments. They are sensitive enough to show you direction and relative velocity. You will learn how much wind is too much. I tested a new rifle this week and was getting random flyers until I noticed that the wind had picked up but was on and then off again.
Test at 50y or 50m until you find your best lot. Why? Several reasons. Wind has more effect at longer ranges so, it helps to minimize its affect. Test indoors if you can get to a 50y indoor range. If it is smaller you just get one hole groups from everything. Be sure to hold the rifle the same way all time but don't grip it too tight unless you find that the rifle shoots better that way. The strong hand thumb should be lightly gripping the rifle or better yet pointed up. Recoil is no an issue with a 22 so no need to hold them too tight.
Use a solid bench and sandbags or bipod. No folding bench or improvised rest can beat a good concrete bench except.... Prone. If you shoot prone from bipod or bags, that is solid. You said you had a Yo-Dave trigger spring. That is good that you have it adjusted so it is not too hard. I do not use super light triggers but they still need to be crisp with no slack on the front and little to no over travel. Focus on making each shot count and don't hurry. If you get tired or are hurting, stop and take a break. Keep a positive mental attitude and enjoy the process which can sometimes be frustrating but it is part of the challenge. Precision rimfire is a blast. Once you have it singing at 50y, reach out to 100m or longer. The attached pics were all shot with Lapua CX at 50y from a bench.
Now, cleaning is critical. Get a good rod and rod guide and remember that CZ factory bbls have bores slightly smaller in diam than most 22's and many 22 sized rods will scrape the inside of the bbl. Use a .20 or .17 or 4mm rod with a 22 cal jag and small patches or 20cal jag with larger patches. You can test Lapua & SK lots back to back without cleaning because they are all made with the same bullets and lube but if you go to RWS or Eley, you must clean the bbl first or spend many rounds reseasoning the bbl. This is a variable you can control. A properly cleaned bbl will settle in after about 5-15 rds. When I shoot matches I clean after each card and then fire 10rds min to season the bbl before shooting for score.
Wind. You do not control it but it can be managed. Test only in calm conditions at first. Get flags. 3-4 of them. A simple 3 ft steel rod driven in the ground with an empty cartridge on top that fits loosely will work. Epoxy a small wire hook or fishing swivel onto the top of the cartridge and to that hook a 18" piece of plastic engineers tape. Drive these into the ground starting about 10-15y from your bench and in 10y increments. They are sensitive enough to show you direction and relative velocity. You will learn how much wind is too much. I tested a new rifle this week and was getting random flyers until I noticed that the wind had picked up but was on and then off again.
Test at 50y or 50m until you find your best lot. Why? Several reasons. Wind has more effect at longer ranges so, it helps to minimize its affect. Test indoors if you can get to a 50y indoor range. If it is smaller you just get one hole groups from everything. Be sure to hold the rifle the same way all time but don't grip it too tight unless you find that the rifle shoots better that way. The strong hand thumb should be lightly gripping the rifle or better yet pointed up. Recoil is no an issue with a 22 so no need to hold them too tight.
Use a solid bench and sandbags or bipod. No folding bench or improvised rest can beat a good concrete bench except.... Prone. If you shoot prone from bipod or bags, that is solid. You said you had a Yo-Dave trigger spring. That is good that you have it adjusted so it is not too hard. I do not use super light triggers but they still need to be crisp with no slack on the front and little to no over travel. Focus on making each shot count and don't hurry. If you get tired or are hurting, stop and take a break. Keep a positive mental attitude and enjoy the process which can sometimes be frustrating but it is part of the challenge. Precision rimfire is a blast. Once you have it singing at 50y, reach out to 100m or longer. The attached pics were all shot with Lapua CX at 50y from a bench.
Attachments
I was wondering which method was more effective, snake or rod/brush/patch?
So I tried both methods in the same barrel after 200 rounds 22lr sent.
Hoppes 9 with rod first time, then checked the results with the borescope.
Nice clean rifling with a couple bits of cotton fiber showed up on screen.
Another 200 rounds sent, then 4 passes with the snake/Hoppes from chamber to muzzle.
Borescope showed same clean rifling and bright steel as rod and patches.
The only differences...snake was faster and doesn't take up any space in the range box.
Does require washing after use. Patches are use and throw away,
rod, brush and patches have to be assembled before, then put away after.
Requires a bit more storage space than the snake. For rimfire, the snake works fine.
For centerfire, where copper fouling can be a problem, the snake is not as effective.
Rod and patch allows better application of copper solvent and time for it to soak.
So I tried both methods in the same barrel after 200 rounds 22lr sent.
Hoppes 9 with rod first time, then checked the results with the borescope.
Nice clean rifling with a couple bits of cotton fiber showed up on screen.
Another 200 rounds sent, then 4 passes with the snake/Hoppes from chamber to muzzle.
Borescope showed same clean rifling and bright steel as rod and patches.
The only differences...snake was faster and doesn't take up any space in the range box.
Does require washing after use. Patches are use and throw away,
rod, brush and patches have to be assembled before, then put away after.
Requires a bit more storage space than the snake. For rimfire, the snake works fine.
For centerfire, where copper fouling can be a problem, the snake is not as effective.
Rod and patch allows better application of copper solvent and time for it to soak.
So to summarize all the good advice people are g.
1. Test the ammo at 50yds
2. Lapua and eley top choice ammo
then SK, RWS and CCI sv for practice.
Save HV ammo for the 10/22
3. Clean the rifle with a one piece 20cal rod
Boretech rimfire blend solvent is great
Must foul the rifle barrel after cleaning
Then you can judge the ammo accuracy
Also when switching between ammo
manufactures it’s best to clean/refoul the
barrel.
4. Try not to have to many outside variables
Like windy day, crap rest/bipod, creep in
Trigger or shooting all day not taking into
Account change in temperature will effect
22lr point of impact.
Enjoy the rabbit hole!
1. Test the ammo at 50yds
2. Lapua and eley top choice ammo
then SK, RWS and CCI sv for practice.
Save HV ammo for the 10/22
3. Clean the rifle with a one piece 20cal rod
Boretech rimfire blend solvent is great
Must foul the rifle barrel after cleaning
Then you can judge the ammo accuracy
Also when switching between ammo
manufactures it’s best to clean/refoul the
barrel.
4. Try not to have to many outside variables
Like windy day, crap rest/bipod, creep in
Trigger or shooting all day not taking into
Account change in temperature will effect
22lr point of impact.
Enjoy the rabbit hole!
Your entire post was golden by my estimate but this was the best part for me. I access my range by quad or snowmobile(still snowmobile today) and space is limited. I know the full on mega-serious BR guys use some pretty fancy flags/vanes but I'd be in sensory overload. Four flags of this type are going to be a nice start both for what they indicate and for training to even watch the darn things. Thanks again Irish.
Agreed on the 2.5 this is something other then ammo I ran 4 different SK ammos through my rifle today at 50 yds while trying a new tuner I built. All 4 shot under .5 inches LR and plus put 4 in the same hole just to have me fail my gun for 1 shot out of 5 and open a .05 group up to a .300 group I get sick of this , the toughest think to admit is lack of discipline. Sometimes it is the basics that get us , we need to stop and back up and make corrections before we move on.
His original barrel was a CZ factory barrel. He now has a Lothar Walther 22" barrel installed. What cleaning rod would you recommend for that barrel?
So, still on the hunt for accuracy.
Can´t get consistent good groups with the ammo I have on hands.
Have ordered now some premium ammo, because I can´t get it here.
What I´m thinking about is my bedding of the system, which I did myself.
Because it is a 22" bullbarrel, I have not only bedded the system, but the first 1.5" of the barrel as well.
Is it possible, that this part makes trouble because it is to long?
Can´t get consistent good groups with the ammo I have on hands.
Have ordered now some premium ammo, because I can´t get it here.
What I´m thinking about is my bedding of the system, which I did myself.
Because it is a 22" bullbarrel, I have not only bedded the system, but the first 1.5" of the barrel as well.
Is it possible, that this part makes trouble because it is to long?
My 455 is bedded roughly 1.5" forward of the receiver and it shoots great. Do you have access to a bore scope? maybe a peek into the barrel may reveal something.
Gjmen22
Don’t stress about the 22” barrel, there is a supposition I agree with, that longer barrels on 22lr even out velocity fluctuations due to complete burn, I’ve noticed it in my own rifles 21” to 25.5”, however that’s backing up my suspicions not evidence
Still testing at 100M?
What are your group sizes if you only look at the vertical? Are you getting horizontal stringing (most likely wind) or vertical (most likely cartridge velocity inconsistency)?
You can try the old o-ring trick. Get one that just slips over the barrel, start with it at the tip of the forend. Move it back slightly shooting a 6x5 each time. You may find a pressure point that improves consistency.
A barrel tuner would be my next step after the pressure tune if results don't change.
Jayjay1-
You've received a lot of good suggestions about how to improve your rifle.
At this point I would suggest the following; Let a known good shooter fire it.
I don't care how long you've been shooting or how good you are, you can develop bad habits over time. How else can you determine if your poor groups are due to the rifle or you if you're the only one who shoots it?
I have a CZ 457 MTR that I'm just beginning to shoot in ARA factory class bench rest. The rifle is capable of some pretty good groups, but a few weeks ago it began shooting poorly. After doing everything I could think of, it still didn't improve. I let a friend of mine who does very well in F Class shooting shoot it. I told him to shoot it any way he wanted; adjust the rest, scope, etc. He shot the best group I've seen out of that rifle. The only thing he did that was different from what I've been doing was he shoot it nearly free recoil. I was putting too much pressure on the stock with my hold. I tried a very loose hold and got the same results as he did, real tiny groups. I've been shooting for years and think I know what I'm doing, but that experience taught me that my fundamentals had become sloppy, and the old saying, "it's a poor carpenter who blames his hammer" is true.
One last thing-- you've mentioned a few times that you thought that perhaps your barrel was too long and with the longer bullet dwell time in the barrel that could cause inaccuracies. Let's say for a moment that your idea is correct. But wouldn't that mean that your after shot follow through is at fault? Again, it's back to fundamentals. Don't blame the hammer.
You've received a lot of good suggestions about how to improve your rifle.
At this point I would suggest the following; Let a known good shooter fire it.
I don't care how long you've been shooting or how good you are, you can develop bad habits over time. How else can you determine if your poor groups are due to the rifle or you if you're the only one who shoots it?
I have a CZ 457 MTR that I'm just beginning to shoot in ARA factory class bench rest. The rifle is capable of some pretty good groups, but a few weeks ago it began shooting poorly. After doing everything I could think of, it still didn't improve. I let a friend of mine who does very well in F Class shooting shoot it. I told him to shoot it any way he wanted; adjust the rest, scope, etc. He shot the best group I've seen out of that rifle. The only thing he did that was different from what I've been doing was he shoot it nearly free recoil. I was putting too much pressure on the stock with my hold. I tried a very loose hold and got the same results as he did, real tiny groups. I've been shooting for years and think I know what I'm doing, but that experience taught me that my fundamentals had become sloppy, and the old saying, "it's a poor carpenter who blames his hammer" is true.
One last thing-- you've mentioned a few times that you thought that perhaps your barrel was too long and with the longer bullet dwell time in the barrel that could cause inaccuracies. Let's say for a moment that your idea is correct. But wouldn't that mean that your after shot follow through is at fault? Again, it's back to fundamentals. Don't blame the hammer.
I've tried a lot of ammo in my CZ 452 and it seems to like SK Rifle Match and Lapua Center-X. I also found that it was sensitive to stock bolt torque with the factory wood stock 20 inch pounds seems to be ok, but bear in mind that temperature and humidity will change POI. I finally mounted mine in an MDT aluminum chassis. That problem is gone. And yes, I agree with the other folks here. Clean your barrel after no more than 200 rounds.
My CZ452 American is my best shooting rifle. It also favors SK RM and Center X above all others. I put a rubber strip between the stock and barrel and it started shooting lights out. I never experimented with torque values as I didn’t need to, but I always set them at 20 lbs. Mine is also in a MDT chassis now. I didn’t see any improvement in accuracy after putting it in the chassis although it’s easier to hold still now that it’s on a bipod.I lot tested it at Lapua, but haven’t had idea conditions to try the lot tested Ammo.
My 453 with 22 in the front and 17 at the trigger guard will shoot 1 hole with old wolf match SKLR and some lots of Center x. That's sad I payed alittle over 400.00 for it new.
Thanks guys,
@Booner, highly appreciated your infos.
Well, I had higher torques than you guys have mentioned.
My system screws were at 27 lbs, which I have now lightened up to your recommended 20lbs.
My barrel screws were set at 44lbs, which I have screwed down to 35lbs.
I knew I was at the upper end of the torques, maybe because I´m German and I had to.
And I will try different techniques, as I know, that my head pressure to the stock sometimes is to high.
Thanks for your support, I really appreciate your help.
@Booner, highly appreciated your infos.
Well, I had higher torques than you guys have mentioned.
My system screws were at 27 lbs, which I have now lightened up to your recommended 20lbs.
My barrel screws were set at 44lbs, which I have screwed down to 35lbs.
I knew I was at the upper end of the torques, maybe because I´m German and I had to.
And I will try different techniques, as I know, that my head pressure to the stock sometimes is to high.
Thanks for your support, I really appreciate your help.
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