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Protecting a map question ?

Hobo Hilton

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 4, 2011
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Pacific Northwest
Maps, like everything else are getting expensive. I am wanting to navigate around an area about 20 miles by 40 miles. Currently using US Forest Service maps. I want to "mark up" some things without actually marking up my maps. I'm thinking of mounting my map on something waterproof like cortex (corrugated plastic sheet). What would be a desirable clear sheet to overlay the map with ? I'm in wet / snow conditions and would possibly like to rig the map so it would at least have one fold so I can get it in and out of a vehicle.

Something similar to this (below) but on a much more economical setup.

 

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Large plastic map protector or cover your entire map in acetate. You can then use map markers to write all over it. They also make map marker erasers to clean it up. That’s all we used in the woods while I was in. I have a large plastic map protector at home if you want it. Will get a pic of it later if you want
 
Acetate if some correct will also make your map very water resistant and foldable to where the creases won’t wear it out fast
 
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It is likely time to go digital. Finally pretty easy to do stuff without having to be too much of a nerd. CalTopo is the easiest one which you can get multiple layers (maps, sat views, etc) also draw on, and it pretty seamlessly synchs between web and phone app so you can do or refer to the drawing at home, not all on the phone.

If locked into paper, first you can just find a nerdy friend with a plotter and print out the maps, then draw directly as they aren't precious. I have a plotter, do lots of maps.

But for overlays I have to ask how you'll use it. You mention mounting to coroplast which would make it very hard to move around in the field. Is this something that lives at a fixed site or not?

If fixed: Best is a tabletop mount. Just put the map on the table, get a sheet of acrylic (lexan for more sturdyness) and buzz the edges down with a sander or router bit to keep them from being so sharp.

If portable, get a map case. Lots exist. Mil suppliers mostly. They have a vinyl surface, you can write on.

For either case, get wet erase (Vis-a-Vis) markers. Like dry erase but... not. Must use another marker or cleaning solvent to remove. Dry erase is often good for first passes.

Also remember to set locator marks. If the overlay moves, you need to be able to put it back. Put crosses that match specific grids or edges of the map, and LABEL THEM so you know which they are to line up with.

Remember parallax. If the overlay has any thickness, be sure to put precise marks on it when directly over the map. At angles, you are writing in a slightly offset position. If you don't understand: ask and I'll find the diagram from my last book about this topic.


For marks, you can instead use sharpie, as long as you clean it within say 6 hours, so okay for quick work when you can't find the right markers yet. Or, if you really, really want the overlay to be permanent. Or... do a glass overlay and use permanent marker with impunity.!
 
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Many gps units let you create custom maps adding your own features / input and store them.

The good ones let you print / transfer.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass.

I'm old and maps were my life when fishing tournaments inshore / offshore , orienteering with scouts, backpacking and just a fair ammount of travel domestic and abroad.

The ease of use has went up along with usable features. The price has come down and some are water proof. Very versitile.

I'm going to stick with my honest suggestion.

Edit: there are app's for cell phones, you don't need cell service to use. I prefer a stand alone unit so I don't kill batteries.

I also have an old cell phone without service I use for gps.
 
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Oh and the price of getting things printed.

Sticker shock awaits you.

72 cents ea. for color copies today at office max .

WTF
 
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There are several "paint on"products that treat the paper and render them almost waterproof, I've use these in MT in the snow and loved them, Get a good map and protractor and you are on your way. In mountains the sky can be obscured and your GPS can be rendered ineffective FYI, I still however use one as my primary Nav tool.

RGR
 
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...In mountains the sky can be obscured and your GPS can be rendered ineffective FYI, I still however use one as my primary Nav tool.

RGR
Unless in a cave, no.

Sure, more satellites will be not in view at all times, and orbits do mean they move around, so there can be issues, but unless you are in a deep and narrow canyon, you should always get position, even if lower precision.

For those that don't know (and a lot do not!), it is worth knowing how to read the GPS screens:
2018-02-13 23.00.01.png

The diagram is a sky-oriented map. As used by astronomers. The outer ring is the geoid horizon, say if on the ocean. Center is straight up, etc. In the mountains you can orient this, look around and pretty quickly get a guess about how well things receive or if something is likely out of view, decide if you can move down the valley or up a little hill to get a better position.

Also note the useful in-view vs in-use values. In-view is a lie, and means "on the diagram," or "could be in view if you were on a parking lot hundreds of miles across. In-use means in use, but once all the signals are synched, means how many are in /actual/ view. Noticing which are locked after a bit helps determine if a sat can be added to your data by moving up. I have had them go from out of sight to lock by raising the unit over my head.

(Also, most receivers are not GPS but multi-band GNSS. Those are both GLONASS and GPS satellites on that image.)

Also this:
2022-01-06 13.59.01.png

Somewhere it will give you the accuracy rating. Upper right, here. That's an actual value. Basic GPS stuff is: time+lat/long/altitude/accuracy. Always. Accuracy is the radius of an R68 circle, meaning you have a 68% chance of being inside the circle (there's no such thing as R100, due to probability, so they had to pick a number).

There is also geometric dilution of position. If the satellites are all clustered up, the angle between each is too small so it's harder to get an accurate fix.

I can go on about this for days :)
 
There’s a time and place for GPS and maps. Maps are not obsolete. We still use maps last I was in which wasn’t that long ago. We use maps in the PSS contracting world. GPS is also a part of that.

The OP is correct for how he wants to use it for. However if you can make a digital overlay or custom map you can plot your points that way and transcribe it over to GPS and organize check points. That’s cool too.

Acetate is in my mind the answer to the original OP question, and erasable maps pens if you you’re out there doing grg style plotting with a protractor and doing math to shoot an azimuth to each plot. Hopefully you were never a 1st LT, if so, Godspeed.
 
There’s a time and place for GPS and maps. Maps are not obsolete. We still use maps last I was in which wasn’t that long ago. We use maps in the PSS contracting world. GPS is also a part of that.

The OP is correct for how he wants to use it for. However if you can make a digital overlay or custom map you can plot your points that way and transcribe it over to GPS and organize check points. That’s cool too.

Acetate is in my mind the answer to the original OP question, and erasable maps pens if you you’re out there doing grg style plotting with a protractor and doing math to shoot an azimuth to each plot. Hopefully you were never a 1st LT, if so, Godspeed.

Nothing so much matches a circus better than a butter bar leading a platoon through thick brush doing land navigation.....esp if they are tabbed lol.... You know your lost when you hear the lt arguing with platoon daddy with the line..." When I was in ranger school...."
 
+1

Even if you are a fan of hardcopy

Plan in digital and learn to use GPS, tracks, etc

Maps and colour printing is expensive, its cheaper to draft and iterate planning in software.

Hardcopy your final notes for the field. Anything you can write on like laminates is expensive.

Dont get sentimental with maps, they can be replaced...

Alot cheaper than doctor visit, a night in a motel, or blowing a hunt or other such costs you will likely eat if you got lost or wasted tons of time doing AB land nav.

Just my $.02
 
A side story on inexpensive gps units effectiveness.

We were working on a couple of test birds and a portion of our electronics were being erratic.

Loosing GPS lock causing problems.

On a hunch I went to my rental car and got my Magellan gps.

Walked in front of open hanger and counted locked satellites. Then climed on test sled next to the blade antenna and noted satellites .

It was lunch time and I awaited the rest of the crew. Unfortunately security forces showed up first, not happy.

The obligatory pissing match ensued as none of them were cleared for the program or equipment I was in charge of.
It took the base commander to sort it out.

Anyway between the mountains and the hangar door / roof the azimuth for satilite reception was narrow, they would pop into and out of view sporadically throughout the day.

We would have to pull ac out and then back in and set security in place each time. I could feel thier eyes on the back of my neck. Lol
 
Nothing so much matches a circus better than a butter bar leading a platoon through thick brush doing land navigation.....esp if they are tabbed lol.... You know your lost when you hear the lt arguing with platoon daddy with the line..." When I was in ranger school...."
A few years ago, there was an article in the army times. It was about a LT that received an award for navigating his platoon to the correct place!!!!!
 
...

Anyway between the mountains and the hangar door / roof the azimuth for satilite reception was narrow, they would pop into and out of view sporadically throughout the day.

We would have to pull ac out and then back in and set security in place each time. I could feel thier eyes on the back of my neck. Lol
Love the story in a lot of ways, reminds me of many others I've heard of getting the job done and funny limits for special access programs. And I've also have had terrible diagnostic modes on embedded gear myself, so people were hugely confused when sat receivers don't work, and you have to ask them "can it see the sky"? Also lots of engineers who don't understand At All the data they are getting, think fewer digits of Lat/Long is less precision or asked "which" degrees so they could convert... from ° F to ° C. No, really.

Was at a Deere facility a few years back and they had (very unusually for digital work!) good test rigs. One thing was a lot of desks had a little coax drop. Grid of GPS ants on the roof, everyone's test hardware could plug into that, get a clear signal for test. They couldn't drive the building around, but locking the sats helped a lot.

I suspect no one will answer openly, but always assumed there were tent-like a/c shelters to allow satcom and GNSS receivers to work without being rained on or letting adversaries see you. Maybe not.
 
Sharpie is alcohol based. Industrial less so, but use denature alcohol to remove. Not rubbing alcohol unless you must; that's literally watered down and full of random scents and stuff.

Sharpie will become permanent, not fully removable, in porous things. Even vinyl sheeting (and whiteboards and so on) are a bit porous so after a bit they cannot be removed entirely. Plan ahead.

Lamination is sorta terrible. Edges are not sealed so even if you overlap so lamination-to-lamination, they can get water inside. HARD to fold, and so thick it messes up the paper inside at the fold. Etc.

Some spray and paint on things are reportedly good, but I've never liked any. If you are buying maps and they are precious, spend more for the waterproof ones. Sorta like printed on Rite in the Rain paper, but more so. Even hard to tear and don't degrade at folds when you do fold them near as much as paper, plus very waterproof.
 
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Connecting to a roof mounted antenna would require pulling the panels and on some ac with special coatings a huge pain.

In others just another red x break of inspection.

I had on numerous occasions at dedicated test facilities asked for gps repeaters and got shot down every time.

Never underestimate the power of stupidity when dealing with the government or contractors.
 
Check out “the hobbit hobby shop” in Fayetteville NC. They will section and laminate the map so it’s easy to fold and will last forever in all weather conditions. Maybe you could send it to them? I still have the same map issues to me of fort bragg from 2002. I had them do all my aviation back up maps too. It was like $20 if memory serves.
 
I cover my paper maps with clear peel and stick shelf and drawer liner. I cover both sides and then trim the map down to get rid of the unnecessary border.

Before I cover the map, I connect the Universal Transverse Mercator for walking and lat/lon lines for travelling a little faster. I can use my favorite plastic gauge when I am marking certain points on the map. I use standard china markers and clean off the marks with windex or your favorite general cleaning stuff.

I have maps that I covered in 1996 and they are still good to go.
 
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For decades, gallon zip-loc bags have weather-proofed the maps of the staff and tens of thousands of our students through New England, Alaska, and Norway. Staedtler map pens go well with them. Permanent are great given the inexpensive nature of the bag. The non-permanent (wet-erase) if you must re-use and/or make adjustments on the fly.
 

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Zip loc are great idea!

The only issue is maps typically need to be folded to fit inside either your pocket or the zip loc itself, which may complicate the situation.

And over time folding copy paper maps will start to wear. But that might be secondary concern depending on priorities.

Digital gps maps could in theory also be custom sized and printed to lay flat for marking vis the bags, Maybe worth condidering.
 
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There is an online map producer that can print various scales of just about any area you request.

They print on a waterproof tyvek like paper at reasonable additional cost.

There is something nice about having a hard copy.....I wish I could remember where I put the map I bought from them.

I will have to hit my email to get you a site link.
 
There is an online map producer that can print various scales of just about any area you request.

They print on a waterproof tyvek like paper at reasonable additional cost.

There is something nice about having a hard copy.....I wish I could remember where I put the map I bought from them.

I will have to hit my email to get you a site link.
I started my map reading 60 years ago with the USGS maps in the Atchafalaya Basin of South Louisiana.. Life had a way of moving me away for the need of topo maps.. so, I'm re-educating myself due to the local terrain. My fixed income does not allow for $600 to be spent on a GPS.

Thanks for all of the contributions.
 
South Louisiana.

Only place I've ever been where you can see antenna / flag pole on top of the marina and need a map or gps to get there.
 
South Louisiana.

Only place I've ever been where you can see antenna / flag pole on top of the marina and need a map or gps to get there.
As a child we duck hunted off of a pipeline canal (The "21" Canal)... Put in at Belle River, La and navigate to a giant lake known as "Willow Cove". That lake has now silted in, as many other lakes and bayous. Pea soup fog, tugs pushing barges, hurricanes knocking down willow trees into the bayou's, tide drops and exposed mud flats to cross in order to get home, water lilies stopping up the water pump on the outboard, eating a soggy tuna sandwich, watching an old glass Thermos roll off the boat seat, hearing that "pop" as the glass broke, watching Dad pore the hot coffee and glass into the cup and give a warning "this is the end of the coffee, don't drink the glass....... The good old days
 
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Fishing out of Dulack or co codrie can get confusing in the estuaries.

A properly programmed gps with up the bayou, down the bayou and accross the bayou would help.
 
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My wife laminates stuff with a zyron machine.
 
This is where I bought my map.....they make really nice maps.

 
True... or upgrade the software... Unaffected by an EMP...
Fewer buttons to press, you can see the whole scene at the same time, they float (mostly), there are no button clicks to drop a waypoint, you can guess at a distance with a glance and get a good estimation with a simple ruler, they emit no energy - neither light nor radio, it is easier to visualize terrain association, and they are pretty hard to break.

I like my GPS, I know how to use it, and it works in the dark - but I always have maps, compass, protractor, ruler, and markers. I think it is easier to walk a straight line in the dark with a compass then use the GPS to check location versus CP coordinates.
 
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It's taken a while but I wanted to follow up and share some info.
First, I want to say "Thank You" for all of this information. It is priceless.
I have been around maps all of my life, but I was never a "Map Person". Dealing with this map maker showed I was behind the curve.
Map covers about 12 miles wide (East / West) and about 15 miles vertical (North / South).
If things go bad, I could cover that area on foot. Going any farther, I'd have to have a vehicle and swap to road maps.
Map is not laminated but it has a matte finish. Water drops bead up. I would protect it farther in the field. A heavy laminate would make it cumbersome.
Like trucks, boats and rifles... There is no perfect map.
Granted, I need to look closer at GPS's. At $600 the Garmin Montana 680t is not in my budget any time soon. Open to suggestions.
I'm not advertising for this outfit. I went with them because they were in Montana and not China.
 

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For an alternative to a gps and have cell service, Avenza maps is a good option. It is free for apple/android up too 4 maps. I use it on timber cruises all the time. You will just need to get a geospatial map. NRCS can create a geospatial pdf (map) for you that you can then add to Avenza.
 
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It's taken a while but I wanted to follow up and share some info.
First, I want to say "Thank You" for all of this information. It is priceless.
I have been around maps all of my life, but I was never a "Map Person". Dealing with this map maker showed I was behind the curve.
Map covers about 12 miles wide (East / West) and about 15 miles vertical (North / South).
If things go bad, I could cover that area on foot. Going any farther, I'd have to have a vehicle and swap to road maps.
Map is not laminated but it has a matte finish. Water drops bead up. I would protect it farther in the field. A heavy laminate would make it cumbersome.
Like trucks, boats and rifles... There is no perfect map.
Granted, I need to look closer at GPS's. At $600 the Garmin Montana 680t is not in my budget any time soon. Open to suggestions.
I'm not advertising for this outfit. I went with them because they were in Montana and not China.


I loved mine....still need to find it......anyone got a map.
 
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Back when I was in nav school, we used this stuff (see pics) to protect the maps (actually aviation charts) that got frequent, heavy use, with lots of markings (pencil, vis-a-vis, etc). I still use it for my elk area hunting maps which I make from printing out free to download USGS topo maps. They're not quite as large as what you're using, only 1:24K scale/7.5 minute size, but it's a durable option to protect and re-use paper maps.
 

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I have a couple of army issue map cases that I used, can mark them up with erasable map markers. However if you don’t have them the gallon ziplock bags work fine, you can also find larger ziplock bags at industrial supply places too.
 
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Alcohol based Stadtler map markers, the correction pen and acetate overlays. I like to make crosses in the four corners of the acetates so they line up with the lines on the map for accuracy. Fold the map (or ideally cut out the portion you need and laminate it) and keep it in a ziploc bag along with the markers, protractor and overlays.

You can print copies of the portion you need too and leave the original map at home, just make sure shit is to scale if you plan on using the protractor.
 
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Since there was some talk about digital maps being used in conjunction with paper maps, consider the hunting map app onXhunt. I am very very far from an expert but I use it hunting and you can download user defined offline maps, track your movements to save later, mark different types of waypoints, even see who owns what land. All sorts of hunting overlays.

Anyway, I’m sure this is all standard stuff and way off the mark, but there you have it.
 
Here is what I do for Sniper Adventure Challenge & practice:

1. Cal Topo [https://caltopo.com/] - really really great source for map data (used for SAR). Sign up for a paid account so you can print larger maps.
2. Print out your map to a georeferenced .pdf the size you want. Save the file.
3. Call a local blueprint place. Ask them to print your map on something waterproof like plastic or tyvek. Most of them already do this for sites or signage - and the cost is super low compared to other places.

The benefits are you have very high control over your map data, and can print it exactly the size you want. If you don't want extra lines all over the place like you get from MyTopo you don't have to have them. Just want the UTM grid lines, but want them on a 100M grid instead of 1000M grid, no problem. Want to make water sources or buildings or other landmarks - no problem. Want to print out Satellite imagery from yesterday - no problem....
 
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For writing on plastic maps I use these pens:

While my maps are "permanent" I really don't use them for ever, they are more limited use in reality. So, if they get used up over time I don't mind printing another at some point. The biggest issue I need is to be able to erase a mistake more than anything else.

I have tried a bunch of things. I don't really like grease since it smears and isn't really very fine of a point. I can't see under/around the area I mark. Additionally, I use mark a circle around my point, so I am not obscuring the detail around the point I am trying to find. Additionally I know that my point is likely not exact anyway, so using a circle around the area helps remind me I am in the "area" not the "point".

I don't like the permanent pens as much because sometimes they don't really stay, and I don't want to carry another thing to erase.

Actual pencil works great on some surfaces that are waterproof - this in my mind is the best if you can get it.

As my partner points out, don't use red pen if your going to use red light after dark - it vanishes on the map :). If white light a night is A-OK, then any color should be good.
 
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+2 on the "Big Zip Lock bag" to protect the map. Also Alloksak makes some that fit :). This way you can have more of your map visible without constantly folding/unfolding, and its protected from rain/dirt (more often my case).

 
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