Recoil, what really makes the difference?

[shane45]

Looking at making my next purchase. Looking at the SCAR 17 and the LMT MWS. I was leanning toward the SCAR because of reports on its ability for fast follow up shots due to its system. However, I have begun to question what really makes the difference! A rifle I picked up last week is what made me question it. I have had MANY AR's and varients. Right now I have a Robarm XCR. Many claimed recoil was minimal with this rifle due to its piston system. I havent found this to be particulerly true. My times in a 3 gun match were so close between this and a plain old bushmaster AR they were indistinguishable. And from a feel perspective, I dont feel/see much of a difference between follow up shots between the two. HOWEVER, last night I shot the Colt 6940 I picked up with a surefire break. Now that rifle has me making follow up shot WAY faster than either of the other two. This is what drove me to think that the system really is not neary as much of a deciding factor as the brake. Now this is all splitting hairs a bit in 5.56 but in 7.62 it will be more of a factor.

 

[excess]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Shane - a brake makes a big difference, sure. But a lot of it is in what you said earlier - you shot two rifles with nearly indistinguishable times. I think shooter ability is much more important than what flavor of semi automatic actuation you have.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Also remember that there are 3 distinct recoil pulses with the AR systems. The round going off and unlocking the bolt head, the bolt traveling rearward and then the bolt slamming forward and reloading itself. No brake is going to be able to tame those recoil pulses. But a good brake can negate most of the muzzle end recoil

 

[ORD]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Perception is 9/10 of reality!

With that presumption in mind, a bit of everything factors into "perceived" recoil differences between AR-type rifles/carbines of the same caliber. For example, overall weight, gas system (piston vs. DI, as well as carbine vs. midlength vs. rifle length systems), buffer weight, recoil spring weight/tension, muzzle device (whether a FH, brake or suppressor...variances from make/model of each), and fit of the rifle to the individual shooter (by stock/cheek weld, proper hold of the rifle, etc.). In addition to all of these things, the individual shooter makes a difference. I have had people shooting my rifles side-by-side and one swear that one rifle has less recoil while other swears it was a different rifle that had less recoil.

Aside from the basic "physics" involved in recoil impulse, the individual shooter's perception is a perhaps the largest factor.

All things being equal, proper shooting technique, followed by a quality muzzle device seems from my experience to yeild the most in terms of reduction of perceived recoil.

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Try a Spikes Tactical Tungston Buffer with a PRI brake.

 

[shane45]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

I agree, everything matters, but if the brake is making 70% of the difference, then chasing a system makes less sense. Im guessing I dont change technique between my rifles and thats what made me focus on whats really different. The only significant difference I see is the surefire brake. The bushie has no brake, the XCR has a crappy brake, previous AR's either had a crappy or no brake. I admit to little experience with brakes on a semi because Im in NJ and they are mostly a pain here so the Surefire is my first quality brake on a semi. So if the brake is 70% I may opt the LMT MWS route with a better brake on it. I am after a 308 with the fastest follow up shot, user error or technique notwithstanding.

 

[problemchild]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, everything matters, but if the brake is making 70% of the difference, then chasing a system makes less sense. Im guessing I dont change technique between my rifles and thats what made me focus on whats really different. The only significant difference I see is the surefire brake. The bushie has no brake, the XCR has a crappy brake, previous AR's either had a crappy or no brake. I admit to little experience with brakes on a semi because Im in NJ and they are mostly a pain here so the Surefire is my first quality brake on a semi. <span style="font-weight: bold">So if the brake is 70% I may opt the LMT MWS route with a better brake on it.</span> I am after a 308 with the fastest follow up shot, user error or technique notwithstanding. </div></div>

I have the LMT with a PWS brake. While it does reduce recoil it does not eliminate recoil. My rifle now feels like a 243 hunting rifle with regards to recoil. The brake timing also matters. If you list your brake to one side a bit you can reduce the torque roll produced by the bolt unlocking and twisting.

 

[samnev]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

It seems to me to vary by the rifle. For some reason my SR 556 seems to recoil more then my SIG 556 or SCAR and even more than my 6920. The SIG 556 seems to be the lightest and smoothest recoiling rifle of the bunch. All seem some what different depending on their weight. The thing the suprised me the SR 556 seems the heaviest. All mentioned have ACOG's on them so scope weight is not a factor.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Weight of the gun.
Operating System (pistons recoil more)
Length of the Operation System
Muzzle device
alignment of the recoil system
etc.

 

[mattsnuked]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Operating System (pistons recoil more)

</div></div>

Really, or is it just because you don't make one yet?

I can't tell the difference.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

We actually do make some piston guns.
However we have done some DOD driven recoil studies, thery clearly show the piston guns of similar design to DI do recoil more, mainly due to the moving metal mass that slams back into another piece of metal.

Of course you can make piston light recoiling guns.

 

[bfoosh006]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try a Spikes Tactical Tungston Buffer with a PRI brake. </div></div> Or Tubbs CWS ( http://www.davidtubb.com/ar15_cws.html with a decent muzzle brake. For me the heavier mass of the BCG/Buffer "softens" the recoil impulse.

 

[Sulenski]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

http://www.buffertech.com/AR-10-Short-AR-Restor-Hydraulic-Recoil-Buffer-Carbine-P222.aspx

the hydrolic buffer can help reduce felt recoil as well. I have heard a lot of good praises on it but have yet to purchase one myself. Im sure there are some hide users out there that are running a hydrolic setup that can chime in and better answer that for ya.

Also tungsten or heavier buffers can help reduce felt recoil as well.

Im looking into getting a better break for my setups as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

I think ergonomics can make a big difference. Weight should help, but my own perceived recoil says otherwise.

I think that muzzle jump, combined with cheekrest design, can amplify perceived recoil. A stock which places the rearward extended bore axis more or less centered within the shoulder contact patch will have less climb, and a cheekrest the slopes downward going forward won't exert upward force on the cheekbone as the rifle recoils rearward. I've had my cheekbone slammed repeatedly by stocks which ignore these concepts, yet have a very light weight M70 .30-'06 which obeys these principles and feels like a pussycat under recoil.

LOP and scope/eye relief need to be set properly or climbing the stock, and its opposite, will coax the body into positional adaptations which amplify felt recoil.

Not that much of a fan of recoil attenuating devices. I prefer a good stock fit/design and a good position. Riding the recoil is a lot different from allowing it to slam into you.

Greg

 

[Texar2]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Badger FTE is the ticket.

 

[Moadster]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Recoil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Badger FTE is the ticket.</div></div>

Got my vote too

 

[shane45]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Greg, I played with your concepts at the range after the 3 gun match trying to zero in on what matters. I found that your assertions seem to be correct! The contenders where a Colt 6940 with a surefire brake and a XCR piston gun with a stock brake. After the match I had them leave up some targets. I did side by side hammers with each rifle and the distance between shots was significantly larger for the XCR. Thinking about what you said added to a dislike of the XCR stock(metal tube) I changed my head postion to get good form on the XCR. When I did that, the pair shrunk to almost identical separation as the Colt. So for this pair of rifles it indeed may be the ergonomics that makes the difference. I will test further and likely swap out the stock on the XCR!

Shane

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Recoil, what really makes the difference?

Shane, I am quite pleased (and not so surprised) that your experience bears out mine. While I may have some issues with the basic mechanical design of the AR, they do not extend to include its ergos. Stoner nailed that part quite nicely.

Greg