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Salt bath annealing advice

L

LA260

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Minuteman
Apr 14, 2017
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I got the BR salt bath annealing kit today and annealed some brass following the directions provided. Below are some pics of what the annealed brass looks like. The middle ones are factory Lapua 260 and 308. The factory 260 annealing goes down further than my annealed brass and so does the factory 308 but not as much as the 260.

Is it really necessary to anneal all the way to almost half of the body like the factory 260 or the way i annealed is fine? It's the 1st time I'm annealing so any help is appreciated.
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You just gotta get past the shoulder and you are done. Your brass is good
 
Wow, this DEFINITELY seems to be the way to go, for us here. Once we get on top of a few more bills, (it's been a REALLY bad year for us here) I'm going to be getting some of this stuff. We've a couple of the Lyman lead melting pots with the bottom dispenser.

I'm going to have a look at one of them, and see about retrofitting it to work this. Interesting. Thanks for bringing this up.

edited to add:
Sand.... I just read elsewhere that simply putting fine silica sand in the melting pot worked for 'a guy'. Interesting. I'd kick myself for not thinking of this on my own. Well, I would if I weren't so quick as to move out of the way....
 
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The only thing I’d be afraid of doing it this way, is me spilling or splashing that shit and melting the flesh off my bones
 
18Echo said:
versus setting your reloading room on fire and burning you house down?
Click to expand...
I can bump into a whole thing of powder, and all I gotta do is sweep it up. Spilling molten lava won’t be as forgiving I’m guessing
 
mijp5 said:
The only thing I’d be afraid of doing it this way, is me spilling or splashing that shit and melting the flesh off my bones
Click to expand...

No more dangerous than a propane torch or a propane leak and explosion.
I have been eyeing one of these myself, seems like a pretty damn good option for precise annealing.
 
Fig said:
How is it you handle firearms if you think a propane torch is dangerous?
When the have a case feeder I’ll be interested.
Click to expand...

That was pretty much my point, it's a non issue for either of the processes for me.
But I wouldn't recommend either to someone that is clumsy or careless and can't follow basic safety guide lines.
 
To the OP, I also do salt bath annealing. Your cases look exactly like mine and I would feel good that they're not being annealed halfway down the body. If that's occuring with salt bath, you're probably leaving the cases in for too long and letting the heat migrate toward the case head. I typically dip mine for like 5-6 seconds at 500 degrees Celcius.
 
Appreciate the help guys. Using the slat bath annealing is not as dangeroues as it sounds. Same precautions and common sense that is used when reloading should be applied to this and youll be fine.
 
Looks good. I need to check and see if I have a spare Lee melting pot. I just got into casting and know I have at least one pot but they are pretty inexpensive especially compared to the other annealers.
 
Your brass looks fine....

I have the same kit. It works fine, with a couple of caveats;

1. The Lee "temp" controller is very basic/unsophisticated, which leads to temperature undershoot and overshoot when it tries to get back to set temperature because of taking heat out of the bath as part of the annealing process.

2. The Lee reservoir is small enough that with any reasonable cadence of cycling brass through the bath, the salt bath temperature drops pretty rapidly and takes a fairly long time to recover.

What I really like about salt bath annealing is the lack of flame and the fact that you have to work really hard at damaging brass, compared to flame type annealers. Personally, I think molten lava chasing me isn't any more or less attractive than flames chasing me.

I do like salt bath annealing, but the bath recovery time and the fact that you need to wash your brass to remove the salts after processing causes it to consume a lot of time. I'm not likely to ever spend the coin for an AMP, but I am looking at putting together the parts for an induction annealer. The nice thing about induction annealing is there is no cleaning phase after the annealing cycle. I have no issues with manual feed of brass, as I only anneal 50 pieces at a time.
 
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Agreed with above. If you go too fast the temp will drop and you have to wait few mins for it to come back up, and washing the brass afterwards is annoying. I do ultrasonic cleaning after resizing the brass already so now I would have to wash/dry the brass twice, once after annealing and once more after resize. I might just tumble after resize now instead of washing it a second time.

Good part is that its pretty cheap to get into. The kit + extra salt was $121 with shipping and Lee was $32, and from what it sounds like people are happy with the results. Even if I stop using it I'm going to be out only $150. I stopped counting the $$ I have spent on crap I don't use a long time ago.
 
I though annealing was supposed to be done before sizing? Isn't that how it goes?
 
I anneal, size, clean, load. I only dry the brass after the brass comes out of the quench bucket post salt bath. Seems to be fine.
 
Sean the Nailer said:
@LA260 , so why can't you resize, then anneal in salt-bath, and then ultrasonic clean?
Click to expand...
The reason is that annealing returns the brass to a consistent 'spring back' hardness. If you resize first, you'll be defeating the purpose of annealing and your neck tensions will be off due to the mixed variance of case hardness going into the process causing slight differences in finished neck inside diameters. The second and third reloading/firing sequences would be OK though.
 
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When taking the brass out of the quench bucket, does anyone have a problem with residual salt being left on your brass? I had some show up in my primer pockets. Air dried the brass with the case head up.
 
Never had that. I drop them in a home depot bucket with about 5 inches of water, take them out and put them in an oven at 250 for 20 minutes and they are good to go, no salt.
 
How's the salt getting to the primer pockets? Only the neck and shoulder are supposed to be submerged in the hot salt. Is your quench bucket due to have a water change?
 
ken4570tc in WY said:
How's the salt getting to the primer pockets? Only the neck and shoulder are supposed to be submerged in the hot salt. Is your quench bucket due to have a water change?
Click to expand...

I use fresh water every annealing cycle. I'm assuming it got there when it gets dropped in the bucket. The salt from other cases mixes with the water, *salt*water gets in the primer pocket, water evaporates, leaving salt in the pocket. Or, at least, that's what I'm assuming happened.
 
How do you know you're heating it to the proper temperature? You can't use Tempilaq can you? And you can't see the metal begin to glow in that "bath", right?

One thing I know for sure is trying to tell if it's done properly by looking at brass coloration is a fool's errand. The discoloration is completely unreliable for determining annealing because it has to do with oxidation not temperature.

I would be seriously worried about over-annealing with that setup.

And I've heard absolute horror stories about getting water in that stuff and other problems. Like Mt. Vesuvius.
 
From my understanding the temp is controlled so you can’t run it up to a higher temp if you happened to leave it in the bath longer than required.
A thermometer is used.
 
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secondofangle2, did you not see the digital thermometer in the picture above? Probably one of the most accurate annealing methods available. You would need to pour water into the the salt pot to create a problem. it's a very easy process and if you can't do this you shouldn't have a loaded gun.
 
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secondofangle2 said:
How do you know you're heating it to the proper temperature? You can't use Tempilaq can you? And you can't see the metal begin to glow in that "bath", right?

One thing I know for sure is trying to tell if it's done properly by looking at brass coloration is a fool's errand. The discoloration is completely unreliable for determining annealing because it has to do with oxidation not temperature.

I would be seriously worried about over-annealing with that setup.

And I've heard absolute horror stories about getting water in that stuff and other problems. Like Mt. Vesuvius.
Click to expand...
How are you going to over heat it when I can only go up to 900 or so degrees. Anywhere from 4-6 seconds should be just dandy. The exact number doesn’t matter, just so long as you do the all evenly. Test to see if 4, 5 or 6 gives you better results, the brass should range from 650-800 degrees or so which are perfectly fine.
 
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Badfinger said:
secondofangle2, did you not see the digital thermometer in the picture above? Probably one of the most accurate annealing methods available. You would need to pour water into the the salt pot to create a problem. it's a very easy process and if you can't do this you shouldn't have a loaded gun.
Click to expand...

that is patently false because 500 C is about 1000 F degrees and 1000 F degrees is too hot. It takes time, a variable amount of time for a metal of one ambient temperature to heat to a new ambient temperature depending on the mass of the metal. So the final temperature of that metal is anywhere between its starting temperature and the temperature of the bath,, depending on the dwell time, and you don't know that temperature unless you measure *the brass* not the bath.

750 F brass temperature is about just right for annealing it. Too hot and you've overcooked it and made it lose its springiness, too little and you've not annealed it and wasted your time. And any variation means you're variably annealed and I don't like variation.

With the flame method, you can be guided by tempilaq to determine your dwell time, with AMP you're guided by their Aztec program. With this, you're just vaguely guessing in a 300 degree F window, "somewhere between 650 and 950 I'm guessing" But you really have no way of knowing what your temperature is. That's not good enough for me and I'd never want the hazard of that stuff, but to each his own.

In any case, looking at case discoloration tells you nothing about the adequacy or overkill or underkill of the annealing. It is totally unreliable.
 
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secondofangle2 said:
that is patently false because 500 celcius is about 1000 degrees and 1000 degrees is too hot. It takes time, a variable amount of time for a metal of one ambient temperature to heat to a new ambient temperature depending on the mass of the metal. So the final temperature of that metal is anywhere between its starting temperature and the temperature of the bath,, depending on the dwell time, and you don't know that temperature unless you measure *the brass* not the bath.

750 F brass temperature is about just right for annealing it. Too hot and you've overcooked it and made it lose its springiness, too little and you've not annealed it and wasted your time. And any variation means you're variably annealed and I don't like variation.

With the flame method, you can be guided by tempilaq to determine your dwell time, with AMP you're guided by their Aztec program. With this, you're just vaguely guessing in a 300 degree F window, "somewhere between 650 and 950 I'm guessing" But you really have no way of knowing what your temperature is. That's not good enough for me and I'd never want the hazard of that stuff, but to each his own.

In any case, looking at case discoloration tells you nothing about the adequacy or overkill or underkill of the annealing. It is totally unreliable.
Click to expand...


Well, we could make the salt exactly 750 degrees if we wanted to, but by the time the brass heats up to 750 at the neck, the case head would be heating up too, which is exactly what you don't want. By increasing the temperature to 500 degrees Celcius (or 932 Fahrenheit), we decrease the time needed in the salt bath. Dropping it in a quench bucket immediately stops the heat progression towards the case head. The reason we use 932 degrees (or thereabouts) is because heat transfer is quantified by a logarithmic function. This means that it increases quickly at first and as time continues, the derivative of the function decreases (the rate of change is slowing), with a horizontal asypmtote at the temperature of our salt bath. When we pull the brass at 4-6 seconds, I would hazard a guess that we aren't close to 932 degrees.

If this seems weird, then look at any flame annealing method. How hot is that flame you're spinning your brass in? 3500 degrees? That's a far cry from the 750 you're trying to hit, but it's because you need to heat the brass quickly and then get it out of the flame so it doesn't anneal the case head. We use the same concept in setting the dwell time. As long as our dwell time is consistent, our brass will be consistent.

You're also thinking that a higher temperature will "overcook" your brass. That's not really the way annealing works. "For cartridge brass, the transformation is rapid, robust, and occurs at approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit. If you apply a higher temperature, the brass will get even softer, but not dramatically so. (Bison Ballistics)." Once you hit the annealing point of brass, you're not making much of a difference by going a little hotter. Thus, if we extend our dwell time by a second or two (as long as we're not heating the case head) we won't make that big of a change in brass structure compared to a shorter dwell time as long as we're getting the brass to the correct temperature to begin with.

https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
 
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I could be mistaken since I dont have the literature in front of me but setting it to 500C is the "standard". I shoot for a cunt hair higher and let the constant brass in and out keep it around 500C. Works good. I do remember if you crank it up high and fumes are coming out you have yourself a situation. Dont have yourself a situation.
 
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Threadcutter308 said:
Your brass looks fine....

I have the same kit. It works fine, with a couple of caveats;

1. The Lee "temp" controller is very basic/unsophisticated, which leads to temperature undershoot and overshoot when it tries to get back to set temperature because of taking heat out of the bath as part of the annealing process.

2. The Lee reservoir is small enough that with any reasonable cadence of cycling brass through the bath, the salt bath temperature drops pretty rapidly and takes a fairly long time to recover.

What I really like about salt bath annealing is the lack of flame and the fact that you have to work really hard at damaging brass, compared to flame type annealers. Personally, I think molten lava chasing me isn't any more or less attractive than flames chasing me.

I do like salt bath annealing, but the bath recovery time and the fact that you need to wash your brass to remove the salts after processing causes it to consume a lot of time. I'm not likely to ever spend the coin for an AMP, but I am looking at putting together the parts for an induction annealer. The nice thing about induction annealing is there is no cleaning phase after the annealing cycle. I have no issues with manual feed of brass, as I only anneal 50 pieces at a time.
Click to expand...

Take the control portion of the pot apart and bypass the control by connecting the 120V leads directly to the heating element. The heating element is rated for 120V input continuous and this will allow you to get a constant max heat into the pot rather than the cycling the rudimentary thermostat provides. For annealing lots of brass fast you want that baby outputting max power all the time so it does not matter if you can't turn the heat down.
 
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MarkLeupold said:
Well, we could make the salt exactly 750 degrees if we wanted to, but by the time the brass heats up to 750 at the neck, the case head would be heating up too, which is exactly what you don't want. By increasing the temperature to 500 degrees Celcius (or 932 Fahrenheit), we decrease the time needed in the salt bath. Dropping it in a quench bucket immediately stops the heat progression towards the case head. The reason we use 932 degrees (or thereabouts) is because heat transfer is quantified by a logarithmic function. This means that it increases quickly at first and as time continues, the derivative of the function decreases (the rate of change is slowing), with a horizontal asypmtote at the temperature of our salt bath. When we pull the brass at 4-6 seconds, I would hazard a guess that we aren't close to 932 degrees.

If this seems weird, then look at any flame annealing method. How hot is that flame you're spinning your brass in? 3500 degrees? That's a far cry from the 750 you're trying to hit, but it's because you need to heat the brass quickly and then get it out of the flame so it doesn't anneal the case head. We use the same concept in setting the dwell time. As long as our dwell time is consistent, our brass will be consistent.

You're also thinking that a higher temperature will "overcook" your brass. That's not really the way annealing works. "For cartridge brass, the transformation is rapid, robust, and occurs at approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit. If you apply a higher temperature, the brass will get even softer, but not dramatically so. (Bison Ballistics)." Once you hit the annealing point of brass, you're not making much of a difference by going a little hotter. Thus, if we extend our dwell time by a second or two (as long as we're not heating the case head) we won't make that big of a change in brass structure compared to a shorter dwell time as long as we're getting the brass to the correct temperature to begin with.

https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
Click to expand...

if you think you can't get it too hot, try holding it in there for 10-12 seconds (we'll ignore the case head integrity for this test), then drop it in the bucket and then squeeze the case mouth slightly with some pliers. It may deform with the force and not spring back. Ruined case irrespective of the case head if that happens. I can's say for sure this will happen, never tried it but I'm interested.

I repeatedly make the point above that it's not the temperature of the bath, it's your inability to monitor, in any practical way, the temperature of the case. Not true with flame annealers where the color of the flame can be monitored and so can temperature with Tempilaq.
 
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18Echo said:
Putting a case in 500 degree Celsius salt does not immediately heat the case to 500 degrees Celsius.
Click to expand...

Right. But exactly what is its temperature after x seconds?

I submit to you that the only thing we can state about that question with certainty is that if x is a high enough number, the temperature of the submerged part of the case will indeed equal 500 degrees Centigrade.
 
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secondofangle2 said:
if you think you can't get it too hot, try holding it in there for 10-12 seconds (we'll ignore the case head integrity for this test), then drop it in the bucket and then squeeze the case mouth slightly with some pliers. you will then see what overannealing is. It will deform with the force and not spring back. Ruined case irrespective of the case head.

I repeatedly make the point above that it's not the temperature of the bath, it's your inability to monitor, in any practical way, the temperature of the case. Not true with flame annealers where the color of the flame can be monitored and so can temperature with Tempilaq.

And you're misquoting or misunderstanding the bison tactical page. They are not saying it cannot be overannealed, only that at some point, about 700-750 degrees, the brass will have asymptopically reached a plateau in terms of crystalline restructuring.

Have you ever intentionally overannealed a case to see what happens?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm missing the point of annealing here. Low brass springback (because there will always be some) sounds like a good thing? Leaves your shoulder bump consistently where you want it, makes neck tension more consistent across cases, right? We're also trying to make this consistent across cases, so we hold each case in a certain temperature (flame or bath, whichever you prefer) for a certain period of time so they all are annealed the same?

Do you think that measuring the case with an infrared thermometer after withdrawing it from the salt bath would be sufficient? It is not directly measuring "in progress" temp, but it would give you a good idea of what temps are being hit for a particular dwell time.
 
I edited my post above to reflect that it may be you're correct, the salt bath is just below the temperature where the brass will get too soft. If you hold a case mouth in a torch flame till it gets red hot you will see what I mean - the brass loses its springiness and will not hold neck tension properly. This may or may not hold true in a salt bath. If it doesn't hold true for the SB, then, unless the head gets so hot you can't hold it, the SB would then indeed be a fool proof method.

If you could not over-anneal and make the brass "too soft" then nobody would be worrying about the necks, only the temperature half way down the case body, right?
 
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secondofangle2 said:
I edited my post above to reflect that it may be you're correct, the salt bath is just below the temperature where the brass will get too soft. If you hold a case mouth in a torch flame till it gets red hot you will see what I mean - the brass loses its springiness and will not hold neck tension properly. This may or may not hold true in a salt bath. If it doesn't hold true for the SB, then, unless the head gets so hot you can't hold it, the SB would then indeed be a fool proof method.

If you could not over-anneal and make the brass "too soft" then nobody would be worrying about the necks, only the temperature half way down the case body, right?
Click to expand...

Then that would be what to test. Does annealing to 932 degrees (500 Celcius) cause over-annealing? Next time I do a batch, I'll chuck a sacrificial case in there and leave it for like 30 seconds and pull it with tongs, see what happens.
 
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I just did my first batch with that kit the other day. I don't have any other annealing process to personally compare it to, but I think it works pretty slick.
Not counting pot warm up and cleanup, it took me about 20-25 minutes to do 175 6.5 Creed cases. I only waited one time (for a minute or two) for the pot to get back up to temp.
I chucked the cases immediately into a 5-gallon bucket with about 8 inches of water in it. After they were all done, I rinsed them and put them in the oven at 200 degrees for about 25 minutes. They came out completely dry and free of any salt residue. All I saw were water spots here and there. I suppose I could throw them in the vibratory tumbler for a bit to make them perfect, but I'm good with the result.

20181207_115205.jpg 20181207_125400.jpg 20181207_125250.jpg
 
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To all who use the salt method, how much salt do you go through. Or how often can you reuse the same salt
 
It takes me one to two teaspoons to replenish what salt was lost for each 100 rounds of .243Win brass annealed. I take out the holder adapter as soon as I'm done, then let the salt cool for an hour and cover loosely with aluminum foil, let it set over night before tipping the pot to remove the salt plug. I store the salt plug in an old cool whip container with tight lid to protect from moisture. Then wipe down and dry the pot. The salt is reusable indefinitely.
 
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