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Rifle Scopes Tempted to spring for my first high dollar scope.......ATACR or PMii?

texasrecurve

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Minuteman
Jan 4, 2020
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New to long range shooting but not to rifles in general. I just received my rifle, a Rem 700 LTR 308 20 inch barrel. I found a used Vortex Diamondback Tactical I bought for it, haven’t even mounted it yet. But the more I read, the more tempted I am to upscale the scope. So far the two that really interest me are the ATACR and the S and B PMii. My local range only goes to 500 yards but once I conquer that, there are a couple that reach 1000 not too far from me that I would like to try. I’ll be buying it used so I’m not going to be that picky on reticle or moa/mil choice. Since this is my first really high dollar optic, I’ll probably be on cloud nine regardless. Any good reasons to pick the ATACR over the PMii or vice versa? Thanks for any advice!
 
I’ve used both but currently own two NF ATACR F1s. There isn’t a specific reason as to why I don’t own an S&B yet, other than I downsized my inventory so there’s no need for one.

Both the S&B PMIIs and ATACRs are great so you can’t go wrong. This topic has come up more times than anyone can count and there’s actually another active thread discussing both of them as well. Best way to go is to follow these steps:

1. Set a budget.
-Based on your post, you’re looking 2000-$3000 in the PX for a used 5-25 ATACR F1 or S&B PM2. $1500-2500 if you want a 4-16 or 3-12. I only use FFP optics so my opinion is biased in that sense. When in doubt, FFP out.

2.Mils or MOA
-Read the article on the main page here about this. Personally I use nothing but mil/mil in my optics now but it doesn’t matter as long as the unit of measure is the same in the reticle as it is in the turrets. Both are equally easy to learn and understand.

3. Reticle Choice
-Look at what reticle styles each company offers and see which one you think you’d like the most. This may end up solving the dilemma of #2 above, depending on the choice.

4. Don’t overthink it
-If you get overwhelmed, just pull the trigger on either and you definitely won’t be disappointed.

NOTE: If you’re Mil or LE, you should hit-up distributors and manufacturers to see who can get you a Mil/LE discount.

Best of luck with your search ?
 
Stay far away from the Hide if you want to save money. Both scopes are great options, the Schmidt will tunnel more but has better glass according to some. The usual rule applies, pick the reticle you like the most and go from there.
 
I own a Schmidt, but I'll honestly say that it's 100% personal preference between the two brands.

Which turrets do you like the look/feel of more? Do you prefer a magnification ring, or would you like your entire eyepiece to be your magnifier (meaning scope caps will spin too)? Do you like illumination controls placed near the turrets, or would you prefer a separate illumination tumor (lefties beware)?

I'm right handed and personally prefer the turrets and magnifier ring on the Schmidt, so I own a Schmidt. I don't like having the entire eyepiece spin, and the Schmidt turrets feel nice to me. Other people, especially those who are left handed, hate the illumination tumor and/or prefer the Nightforce turrets and/or magnification eyepiece.

If you put someone behind the two scopes in a truly blind test the odds are you wouldn't really be able to tell the glass apart too much. Any differences you do note are not a result of glass quality, but of the priorities the companies had when developing their coatings. Each company has their own proprietary blend to tweak the apparently brightness, contrast, and color saturation through the scope exactly the way they want it to be. Whether your eye likes one brand over another is another matter of personal preference, and between NF and Schmidt I honestly don't have one.
 
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If your going to spend that much money, don't half ass it, lol. Try to narrow it down as much as possible for what you think you may want and wait for the right deal to pop up. And the answer is always Mil/Mil if you plan to shoot with others in the future since no one talks in MOA about wind corrections, width of targets, etc. My .02
 
New to long range shooting but not to rifles in general. I just received my rifle, a Rem 700 LTR 308 20 inch barrel. I found a used Vortex Diamondback Tactical I bought for it, haven’t even mounted it yet. But the more I read, the more tempted I am to upscale the scope. So far the two that really interest me are the ATACR and the S and B PMii. My local range only goes to 500 yards but once I conquer that, there are a couple that reach 1000 not too far from me that I would like to try. I’ll be buying it used so I’m not going to be that picky on reticle or moa/mil choice. Since this is my first really high dollar optic, I’ll probably be on cloud nine regardless. Any good reasons to pick the ATACR over the PMii or vice versa? Thanks for any advice!

I'm a little confused when I see the words "long range shooting" and "308 20 inch barrel" together in the same sentence and there isn't a negation in it.

Next I see that we're talking 500 yards, so that takes way the "long" in "long range shooting" and my universe is back on track. Only to be shaken again when I see 1000, but without a unit of measure. Of course, neither scope being discussed is suitable for "long range shooting" but then again, maybe with a 20 inch barrel, we're just doing artillery shooting.

I would suggest that if you want to shoot 1000 yards and there are 1000 yard ranges close to you, you might want to go there and see what scopes are used at those ranges. I'm in Texas and I belong to one of the few 1000 yard ranges in Texas, Bayou Rifles, Inc. Which ones are you talking about?
 
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I'm a little confused when I see the words "long range shooting" and "308 20 inch barrel" together in the same sentence and there isn't a negation in it.

Next I see that we're talking 500 yards, so that takes way the "long" in "long range shooting" and my universe is back on track. Only to be shaken again when I see 1000, but without a unit of measure. Of course, neither scope being discussed is suitable for "long range shooting" but then again, maybe with a 20 inch barrel, we're just doing artillery shooting.

I would suggest that if you want to shoot 1000 yards and there are 1000 yard ranges close to you, you might want to go there and see what scopes are used at those ranges. I'm in Texas and I belong to one of the few 1000 yard ranges in Texas, Bayou Rifles, Inc. Which ones are you talking about?
Long range depends a lot on the shooter, if the OP has only ever shot out to 300, then 500 may feel like it is "long range" but I get what you're saying. I used to think 1000 yards was long range but the ELR guys put that to shame with their 2 mile stuff. And while a 20" 308 doesn't seem ideal for 1000 that's not to say it's not capable even when dealing with transonic issues. What do you mean by "neither scope being discussed is suitable for long range", the OP is simply asking about the ATACR or the PM II, of which there are plenty of scopes in that lineup capable of "long range". I do agree the OP is a bit all over the board but he admits he is new to this so I assume he is learning as he goes.
 
New to long range shooting but not to rifles in general. I just received my rifle, a Rem 700 LTR 308 20 inch barrel. I found a used Vortex Diamondback Tactical I bought for it, haven’t even mounted it yet. But the more I read, the more tempted I am to upscale the scope. So far the two that really interest me are the ATACR and the S and B PMii. My local range only goes to 500 yards but once I conquer that, there are a couple that reach 1000 not too far from me that I would like to try. I’ll be buying it used so I’m not going to be that picky on reticle or moa/mil choice. Since this is my first really high dollar optic, I’ll probably be on cloud nine regardless. Any good reasons to pick the ATACR over the PMii or vice versa? Thanks for any advice!

Feel free to give us a call at 916-670-1103 and we can list the pros and cons to each item and/or the others in its class :)
 
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I'm a little confused when I see the words "long range shooting" and "308 20 inch barrel" together in the same sentence and there isn't a negation in it.

Next I see that we're talking 500 yards, so that takes way the "long" in "long range shooting" and my universe is back on track. Only to be shaken again when I see 1000, but without a unit of measure. Of course, neither scope being discussed is suitable for "long range shooting" but then again, maybe with a 20 inch barrel, we're just doing artillery shooting.

I would suggest that if you want to shoot 1000 yards and there are 1000 yard ranges close to you, you might want to go there and see what scopes are used at those ranges. I'm in Texas and I belong to one of the few 1000 yard ranges in Texas, Bayou Rifles, Inc. Which ones are you talking about?



He's asking thoughts between a SB and ATACR for shooting his Rem 700 rifle 500-1000yds. Hope this helps.
 
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Long range depends a lot on the shooter, if the OP has only ever shot out to 300, then 500 may feel like it is "long range" but I get what you're saying. I used to think 1000 yards was long range but the ELR guys put that to shame with their 2 mile stuff. And while a 20" 308 doesn't seem ideal for 1000 that's not to say it's not capable even when dealing with transonic issues. What do you mean by "neither scope being discussed is suitable for long range", the OP is simply asking about the ATACR or the PM II, of which there are plenty of scopes in that lineup capable of "long range". I do agree the OP is a bit all over the board but he admits he is new to this so I assume he is learning as he goes.


I use the NRA Highpower program definitions for mid-range and long range. The ELR guys will definitely put anyone to shame for distance, but ELR is eponymous as it contains he words "long" and "range" but it's qualified by the pre-pended "E" for "Extreme." See how that works?

The OP said "long range", he did not say "extreme long range."

I didn't think anyone would have a problem with my suggestion that the OP visit the 1000 yard ranges at which he hopes to shoot, to see what the folks there are using to accomplish the task. I would surely think you would agree with that suggestion, especially since the OP does state that he is new at this.

Equipment and optics recommendations on a discussion board are not at the same level as seeing what the "kool kids" are using at the range where you hope to go shoot, especially for a beginner.

Let me share some real world experiences with you. I have been one of the Long Range Qualification officials at Bayou Rifles for several years now. I was Long Range match director for many years and I still participate actively in running the matches and taking care of the range.

We have a lot of people who come to the range and want to be LRQ'ed. I have done the drill countless times and seen all sorts. LRQ means you have access to the 1000 yard range, if you're a member you get the combination to the gate of that range and the secret handshake. We have NRA Highpower matches just about every weekend and that's also a good time to get LRQ.

Let's say BRI is one of the ranges at which the OP hopes to come play. He shows up with his 20 inch 308 topped by an expensive S&B scope with FFP/Mil-Mil and maximum magnification of 20x which he bought because that's what the Hide told him to do for "long range."

The problem is that we shoot NRA Highpower, F-Class, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. His setup puts him in F-TR, shooting his "Long Range" 175gr SMKs at 0.5MOA targets 1000 yards away. Hey, he was told this was THE setup for long range at the Hide. I have seen this too many times and it breaks my heart. They show up once, realize their expensive equipment is not suitable and never return.

Nobody uses S&B and ATACR scopes on the 1000 yard line at BRI; it's all March, Kahles, Vortex, Sightron and similar, with nothing less than 40X at maximum magnification.

That is why I am strongly suggesting that the OP visit the 1000 yards ranges at which he wants to go play, BEFORE buying anything expensive, yet unsuitable.

If he is planning to go somewhere else and do something else, then it's all good and he should go visit there to make an informed decision.
 
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F-Class? Is that a sport? I thought it was a racing event. :p Just pulling your chain Denys, but I had to go back and look and don't see the OP mentioning F-Class which is a completely different animal from what most of the guys on the Hide want to get into. I figured with a 20" 308 the OP had no interest in F Class but probably more looking at the typical steel shooting most of us engage in. For this, even an ATACR 4-16 would suffice for many, but so much depends . But we're just speculating as the OP has not responded so this may end up being a dead thread anyway.

I do however agree with you on not just taking advise from the Hide but actually visiting an event or a place you'd like to shoot, talking with other shooters who've been in your shoes can often be very helpful. But you might also meet up with a Fudd who ends up steering you in a completely wrong direction.
 
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For what it's worth, and I am not a LR guru or savant ....... match the scope to the gun / round. With a 308 you're not going much past 1100 yards if that because you're in trans sonic and the bullet goes weird. So you need to look at a good, clear objective to about 1k yards.

I have a ATACR 7-35. I also have the new Burris XTR III 5.5-30. I put the Burris on my 308. It is, *almost* as good as the ATACR in terms of clarity, eyebox and almost any metric you want to use. Yes, I like the reticle in teh NF better but it's close. And the Burris is half the price. For a 1k yard gun, the XTRIII is an incredible choice (IMHO) and gives you $$ to spend on ammo and other stuff.

Good luck with your choice.
 
OP - all depends what you enjoy. I do 500-1000 with a couple different SB PMII optics with .308s. A 20" .308 with 5x45 PMII, and 16" .308 with 1x8 ShortDot CC PMII. Both great optics. While the 5x45 PMII has stronger mag and is way more than sufficient for 1000, I tend to enjoy the 1x8 more because it presents more of a challenge which makes it more fun to me. All depends what you like to do.
 
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New to long range shooting but not to rifles in general. I just received my rifle, a Rem 700 LTR 308 20 inch barrel. I found a used Vortex Diamondback Tactical I bought for it, haven’t even mounted it yet. But the more I read, the more tempted I am to upscale the scope. So far the two that really interest me are the ATACR and the S and B PMii. My local range only goes to 500 yards but once I conquer that, there are a couple that reach 1000 not too far from me that I would like to try. I’ll be buying it used so I’m not going to be that picky on reticle or moa/mil choice. Since this is my first really high dollar optic, I’ll probably be on cloud nine regardless. Any good reasons to pick the ATACR over the PMii or vice versa? Thanks for any advice!
As most have stated, the differences between the two manufacturers are subjective to each shooter. I use S&B scopes because its what i used in the military and have gotten used to them over the years.

Being new to the "long" range game, I would say 2 things:

1. Buy a scope with a basic reticle that forces you to learn how to make adjustments by dialing the turrets. The "tree" type reticles are great for competitors and experienced shooters in that they offer a quick holdover method to accurately engage targets without touching the turrets. This functionality is great for someone who understands what all the sub-tensions mean but doesn't help you (new to LR) build a solid foundation. Buy something with a simple mildot-type reticle and USE YOUR TURRETS. Crawl, Walk, then Run.

2. In regard to the mil/moa dilemma...... go mil. there's a reason our military (and most of the rest of the planet) uses the mil system, it plain works and is easy to understand.
 
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I have owned VOrtex Razor two, Nightforce AtacR mil c, and Schmidt Double turn with the MSR reticle. I bought a Minox zp5 with the mr4 reticle., when they had the stupid deal going on. Actually I bought three. And the Minox spotter. The reticle in my opinion is, it has the easiest and fast reticle I could find. The glass was on line with my schmidt.
 
I’ve had both the ATACR and the SB PMII. I got rid of the NF and kept the SB. Really splitting hairs. The SB technically has more a more durable aluminum for the tube, and the Schott glass has a .2% better light transmission than the Japanese glass in the NF. Both pretty petty issues. I like the turrets better on my PMII, as well as the more refined parallax. Also personal opinion.
I shoot my 20” .308 out to 1,300yds with good success, and I love the tremor 2 reticle in my pmii for accurate holdovers and wind holds.
Next guy down the line will prefer the NF though. I would really try and get behind them both so you can decide for yourself. It’s a lot of money to pay for a scope without having looked through and tinkered with the other.
 
That's is patently incorrect as a general statement comparing the two places of origin.

It is a common fable, but it is basically BS.

ILya
I hear ya, so what backs up that train of thought? I’m always in the pursuit of truth, so if Japanese glass is better than Schott glass I would love to see the data on it.
 
neither of them would not let you down if you want to spend that much on a scope there are other options out there on good scopes that don't cost that much with more mag and glass that is every bit as good . but each to there own and good luck on what ever you buy .
 
Here is what I tell everyone about glass. I shoot out at TVP and with my burris ( I run 4 xtr2's on Ar's and 22lr-17hmr) and I see the same 4 inch sporting clay at 1 mile as I can with my Minox Schmidt, nightforce and so on. They are all splitting hairs. Yes they are more crisp or you can see slightly longer 15-25 mintues at twilight. But for the love of god, i can see a 4 inch sporting clay with a Burris xtr2. What more do you want than that. Let me add to the last line, When people talk about the diffrence in glass with all the high end brands their cutting hairs. I have the minox now on a 260 and 338, yes their nice, but I have been able to do all the shooting I do with a burris as well.
 
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Either will do nicely
I find shooting a 308 at 1000ish fun but at time frustrating compared to my 6.5 and 7mm

when you on and smacking steel at distance with a 308 it’s a great feeling.

my first 1000 yards scopes was in the $500 range and did well so a PMII or atacr is gonna do well for you.
 
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Here is what I tell everyone about glass. I shoot out at TVP and with my burris ( I run 4 xtr2's on Ar's and 22lr-17hmr) and I see the same 4 inch sporting clay at 1 mile as I can with my Minox Schmidt, nightforce and so on. They are all splitting hairs. Yes they are more crisp or you can see slightly longer 15-25 mintues at twilight. But for the love of god, i can see a 4 inch sporting clay with a Burris xtr2. What more do you want than that. Let me add to the last line, When people talk about the diffrence in glass with all the high end brands their cutting hairs. I have the minox now on a 260 and 338, yes their nice, but I have been able to do all the shooting I do with a burris as well.


Exactly-nowadays "bad glass" is good enough to see everything good enough-after that a reticle you like and good tracking come into play. That's basically an XTR 2 in a nutshell no? Lifetime warranty to boot.
 
I hear ya, so what backs up that train of thought? I’m always in the pursuit of truth, so if Japanese glass is better than Schott glass I would love to see the data on it.

This is going to sound rude, so I apologize in advance, but I do not have a better way to go over this.

There is no good answer to this question (is Japanese glass better than Schott glass or German glass or vice versa) because the question itself is absolute and utter nonsense. Now, it is not your fault. You did not start this idiocy and it will not end with you. I have been trying to put it to rest for a decade or so and it keeps on coming back like a bad dream.

On the internet, everyone is equal so in the grand scheme of things my voice does not carry any more weight than anyone else's. Vast majority of marketing people in this world like to talk about glass since it easy and undefined and noone calls themout on it. Most of them can't tell the difference between a frosted window and polished optic, but they have marketing budgets that serve as a loudspeaker.

There are hundreds of different types of Japanese glass of varying quality from different companies and hundred's of different types of German glass of varying quality. There is no way to make a blanket pronouncement on which is better because all the different glass types are made for a specific purpose, to a specific budget and with slightly different chemical composition that effects its optical properties. An optical designer has a huge catalogue of glass types to pick from. it really comes down to how it is used and how the scope is designed and how well each piece has been QC'ed and how well the entire system has been assembled and QC'ed.

If Schott vanished from this earth tonight, every scope maker who uses their glass could pick similar glass types from Ohara, make very minor tweaks in their design and you would never know the difference. The image through the scope would look just about the same.

ILya
 
Gotta feel for the OP. His dreams of getting LRQ'ed be Denys and dominating the F-Class comp at Bayou Rifles with his PoS Schmidt & Bender have been dashed.
Yeah, ain't that a b*tch?

Actually, I have LRQ'ed many people who have come to the range with an FFP and Mil scope. I think I LRQ'ed one with a S&B last year or the year before, but he had it on top of a 6.5CM. He never came back to shoot a match; all he wanted was to be LRQ'ed and thus gain access to the LR range. He got it.

One of the problems with S&B is that they are very heavy and weight matters. There are other scopes with superb glass that are lighter and have the same or more magnification than the S&B, for example: March, Kahles, etc. F-class shooters prefer SFP high mag scopes.

What would be a real obstacle for the OP in getting LRQ'ed and going on to dominate F-class is the 20 inch barrel. But that's fixable.
 
I also notice the OP has not returned since his initial post.
 
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I also notice the OP has not returned since his initial post.
Im sure he is scratching his head and wondering what are they talking about.I would also recommend going to some ranges and talking to shooters and take a good look true what they are using.And do not be shy about talking to other shooters, if they see you are interested most of them would be happy to share info.
 
I have both and prefer the S&B, it's just preference which has been stated.
A Schmidt 5-25 from the Hide classifieds is the best bang for buck you'll ever find in top tier glass, they normally sell for $2200-2700 depending on reticle and turrets.
 
I have both and prefer the S&B, it's just preference which has been stated.
A Schmidt 5-25 from the Hide classifieds is the best bang for buck you'll ever find in top tier glass, they normally sell for $2200-2700 depending on reticle and turrets.

And if for some reason you don't like it, you can turn around and sell it for what you put into it.

Very little risk.
 
The S&B is the better deal. You get an ounce of high quality gun grease with your purchase. Unfortunately it is stored on the inside of the lens right smack in the middle of your view :)

That's was a small batch of scopes which they address very quickly if you find a grease spot. I just took delivery of my 8th S&B PM2 and have yet to see that problem or any other issue

I can show you a Nightforce with a severely canted reticle... that one is going back to Nightforce soon.
 
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That's was a small batch of scopes which they address very quickly if you find a grease spot. I just took delivery of my 8th S&B PM2 and have yet to see that problem or any other issue

I can show you a Nightforce with a severely canted reticle... that one is going back to Nightforce soon.

I was mostly joking as I would pick the S&B myself given the two choices.

But, I was surprised to see a guy post about just receiving a new S&B scope with the blob of grease on the inside of the lens. I'm surprised these scopes were able to pass quality inspection and ship out.
 
I use the NRA Highpower program definitions for mid-range and long range. The ELR guys will definitely put anyone to shame for distance, but ELR is eponymous as it contains he words "long" and "range" but it's qualified by the pre-pended "E" for "Extreme." See how that works?

The OP said "long range", he did not say "extreme long range."

I didn't think anyone would have a problem with my suggestion that the OP visit the 1000 yard ranges at which he hopes to shoot, to see what the folks there are using to accomplish the task. I would surely think you would agree with that suggestion, especially since the OP does state that he is new at this.

Equipment and optics recommendations on a discussion board are not at the same level as seeing what the "kool kids" are using at the range where you hope to go shoot, especially for a beginner.

Let me share some real world experiences with you. I have been one of the Long Range Qualification officials at Bayou Rifles for several years now. I was Long Range match director for many years and I still participate actively in running the matches and taking care of the range.

We have a lot of people who come to the range and want to be LRQ'ed. I have done the drill countless times and seen all sorts. LRQ means you have access to the 1000 yard range, if you're a member you get the combination to the gate of that range and the secret handshake. We have NRA Highpower matches just about every weekend and that's also a good time to get LRQ.

Let's say BRI is one of the ranges at which the OP hopes to come play. He shows up with his 20 inch 308 topped by an expensive S&B scope with FFP/Mil-Mil and maximum magnification of 20x which he bought because that's what the Hide told him to do for "long range."

The problem is that we shoot NRA Highpower, F-Class, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. His setup puts him in F-TR, shooting his "Long Range" 175gr SMKs at 0.5MOA targets 1000 yards away. Hey, he was told this was THE setup for long range at the Hide. I have seen this too many times and it breaks my heart. They show up once, realize their expensive equipment is not suitable and never return.

Nobody uses S&B and ATACR scopes on the 1000 yard line at BRI; it's all March, Kahles, Vortex, Sightron and similar, with nothing less than 40X at maximum magnification.

That is why I am strongly suggesting that the OP visit the 1000 yards ranges at which he wants to go play, BEFORE buying anything expensive, yet unsuitable.

If he is planning to go somewhere else and do something else, then it's all good and he should go visit there to make an informed decision.

Dude, he has a m700 bolt rifle talking about 500-700.

He ain’t showing up to an F class match.
 
LOL @ 20” barrel not being good enough for 1k.
:LOL::ROFLMAO:

Dont tell my 16" 223! Its been misinformed and putting dots on steel against protocol


OP- if you do come back, just use the diamond back tactical for the couple hundred bucks it cost you already, youll know when you need to upgrade vs just thinking you need to from someone elses arbitrary preference.
 
Dude, he has a m700 bolt rifle talking about 500-700.

He ain’t showing up to an F class match.
Dude, you obviously didn't read my posts completely. I would suggest you reread post #7 above.
 
This is going to sound rude, so I apologize in advance, but I do not have a better way to go over this.

There is no good answer to this question (is Japanese glass better than Schott glass or German glass or vice versa) because the question itself is absolute and utter nonsense. Now, it is not your fault. You did not start this idiocy and it will not end with you. I have been trying to put it to rest for a decade or so and it keeps on coming back like a bad dream.

I'm going to play devils advocate and answer some of my own questions in response.

Devil: "how do you quantify that the claim "X glass is better than Y glass" is "absolute and utter nonsense.""
Bill: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the answer is because optical glass is a formula - a combination of various earth elements (e.g. Crown glass = quartz (SiO2): ca. 73 %, sodium oxide (Na2O): ca. 5 %, potassium oxide (K2O): ca. 17 %, calcium oxide (CaO): ca. 3 %, aluminium oxide (Al2O3): ca. 2 %) and any of the "good" glass manufacturers should be able to create the same "type" of glass given the same quality of product, but I also understand that there are different levels of impurities that can reside in the source material, so as long as the same level of impurities is maintained then the resulting glass should be the same.

To my everlasting shame, I am guilty of having glass bias. At times I have promoted "German" glass above "Japanese" glass, but only because of my experience having used many scopes of both European and Japanese origin. In the past, the very best scopes from an optical perspective were Schmidt & Bender, Hensoldt, Swarovski, Premier et al; all happened to use "German" glass while the best scopes from Vortex, Nightforce, Bushnell Elite et al all happened to use "Japanese" glass and every time I compared the "best" from Germany to the "best" from Japan I found the German sourced scope to be superior. Thus the bias was created in my mind "German glass is better than Japanese glass". The first time I ever saw Japanese glass that came "close" to what I saw from the German glass was from March, outside of some of the issues inherent to their 8x FFP design the "pop" (resolution, contrast, color, CA) was very similar to what I saw out of my European scopes which made me realize that there may be more than meets the eye :geek:

Devil: "But what about all the light transmission numbers?"
Bill: Light transmission is largely a marketing ploy, Schmidt & Bender may advertise 96% for their Ultra Bright 4-16x56, but compared to Schmidt PM II 5-25 which has a light transmission rating of 90%, if you set both scopes to 12x will you actually "see" more light from the Ultra Bright. In a blind test I'd venture to say you'd be hard pressed to discern a difference and that's because of our eyes ability to compensate extremely well, so while an optical instrument used to measure these numbers may be able to pick up the difference that is not to say our eye can, again, all things being equal because if you pickup a "cheap" 5-25 scope that may have similar specs, the image you see will be vastly different due to the quality of the glass and coatings. When we hear claims like, "I was able to see 15 minutes longer past sunset with Scope X" I find these claims to be somewhat disingenuous because how did the user make this determination, were they in a controlled environment with both scopes side by side etc., or was their "perception" that they could see longer with scope X. And here is the rub, our "perceptions" have power over reality in many situations. Think of the magician, they are able to alter your perception through slight of hand and convince you to think you saw something you actually did not - I believe similar things happen when we look through scopes which is why we'll often see a group of shooters saying scope X is better than scope Y and another set saying the exact opposite.

Devil: "Only scopes using Schott HT glass have high transmission right?"
Bill: Again, go to my first paragraph above, there is a formula for glass and while there may be tweaks to this formula it is still a formula. Also, light transmission often is a result of the multi-coating(s) used which are themselves a formula. Keep in mind that many manufacturers like to keep their formula's secret, like Grandma's secret spaghetti sauce recipe handed down over the generations. But that's not to say that just because Schott has HT (High Transmission) glass, that other glass manufacturers can't create their own HT glass.

On the internet, everyone is equal so in the grand scheme of things my voice does not carry any more weight than anyone else's. Vast majority of marketing people in this world like to talk about glass since it easy and undefined and no one calls them out on it. Most of them can't tell the difference between a frosted window and polished optic, but they have marketing budgets that serve as a loudspeaker.

Maybe to those who don't know you ILya, but for those that do, your voice carries a lot of weight. Most of us do not have the experience that you have working with optics and lenses and everything in between.

Devil: "But the marketing materials say this or that"
Bill: What is the goal of Marketing, to bring awareness to a product in order to get sales. We've all seen the clever slogans, for those of you who are old, when I say the phrase "It takes a lickin' but keeps on..." what comes to mind? Anyone who's seen the old Timex commercials will immediately recognize this - clever marketing with a catchy phrase to get you to believe that Timex watches can withstand a lot of abuse. Think of what Nightforce did with their video a few years ago driving a large metal spike into some wood with the objective bell of one of their scopes, then mount it back up and it shoots straight. Does that mean other scopes couldn't do the same, certainly not, but that was clever marketing from NF to show how durable their scopes are.

There are hundreds of different types of Japanese glass of varying quality from different companies and hundred's of different types of German glass of varying quality. There is no way to make a blanket pronouncement on which is better because all the different glass types are made for a specific purpose, to a specific budget and with slightly different chemical composition that effects its optical properties. An optical designer has a huge catalogue of glass types to pick from. it really comes down to how it is used and how the scope is designed and how well each piece has been QC'ed and how well the entire system has been assembled and QC'ed.

Devil: "So why don't we see scopes on par with German glassed scopes coming from other areas?"
Bill: To ILya's point - "made for a specific purpose, to a specific budget". Over the past 7 years we have seen continual improvements from scopes coming from Japan (and improvements from Philippines and China as well) due to modern manufacturing methods and advancements in computer aided designs. March stands out as one of the Japanese manufacturer's who appear to be able to challenge the traditional European alpha class designation IMO. I have high hopes for what is to come from this manufacturer, but even Nightforce has shown improvement (look at the many claims the 7-35 "looks" better than the 5-25), Bushnell with their new ED Prime glass, Burris with the new XTR III showing great improvement over the XTR II and the many new designs from LOW that we are seeing pop up left and right these days. Not only that but Vortex has challenged with their AMG 6-24 scope, showing that even American sourced glass can prove to be a worthy competitor. So while the "best of the best" seems to have come from Europe I think we will begin to see the Japanese encroach further and further into the alpha class market.

What this all means for us is that better and better scopes are hitting the market and we shouldn't be worrying so much about where this is made or where that is made, but truly look to the quality of any given scope and judge it based on the merits of what it has to offer you and for your style of shooting.
 
Dude, you obviously didn't read my posts completely. I would suggest you reread post #7 above.

Again, you’re on sniper’s hide. If someone comes on here asking for advice without mentioning F class, they will get practical rifle advice.

No need for your arrogant “I read long range but then he said 500.”

Guys showing up to F class matches didn’t get bad advice because the forum. They get bad advice when they use the wrong forum or ask the wrong questions.
 
Again, you’re on sniper’s hide. If someone comes on here asking for advice without mentioning F class, they will get practical rifle advice.

No need for your arrogant “I read long range but then he said 500.”

Guys showing up to F class matches didn’t get bad advice because the forum. They get bad advice when they use the wrong forum or ask the wrong questions.
You REALLY didn't read post #7. What is so wrong about suggesting the OP visit the ranges he hopes to shot at and see what's what?
 
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OP, what’s funny is on Day 1 of the Brawl the leaders of the match were a 223 & 308

and to the f-classer, don’t they still shoot 308 at 1000yds ? I could’ve sworn there was a match this past weekend in Houston. I think I know a 308 that was shooting there also.

maybe they mortared the rounds in ??‍♂️
 
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I'm going to play devils advocate and answer some of my own questions in response.

Devil: "how do you quantify that the claim "X glass is better than Y glass" is "absolute and utter nonsense.""
Bill: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the answer is because optical glass is a formula - a combination of various earth elements (e.g. Crown glass = quartz (SiO2): ca. 73 %, sodium oxide (Na2O): ca. 5 %, potassium oxide (K2O): ca. 17 %, calcium oxide (CaO): ca. 3 %, aluminium oxide (Al2O3): ca. 2 %) and any of the "good" glass manufacturers should be able to create the same "type" of glass given the same quality of product, but I also understand that there are different levels of impurities that can reside in the source material, so as long as the same level of impurities is maintained then the resulting glass should be the same.

To my everlasting shame, I am guilty of having glass bias. At times I have promoted "German" glass above "Japanese" glass, but only because of my experience having used many scopes of both European and Japanese origin. In the past, the very best scopes from an optical perspective were Schmidt & Bender, Hensoldt, Swarovski, Premier et al; all happened to use "German" glass while the best scopes from Vortex, Nightforce, Bushnell Elite et al all happened to use "Japanese" glass and every time I compared the "best" from Germany to the "best" from Japan I found the German sourced scope to be superior. Thus the bias was created in my mind "German glass is better than Japanese glass". The first time I ever saw Japanese glass that came "close" to what I saw from the German glass was from March, outside of some of the issues inherent to their 8x FFP design the "pop" (resolution, contrast, color, CA) was very similar to what I saw out of my European scopes which made me realize that there may be more than meets the eye :geek:

Devil: "But what about all the light transmission numbers?"
Bill: Light transmission is largely a marketing ploy, Schmidt & Bender may advertise 96% for their Ultra Bright 4-16x56, but compared to Schmidt PM II 5-25 which has a light transmission rating of 90%, if you set both scopes to 12x will you actually "see" more light from the Ultra Bright. In a blind test I'd venture to say you'd be hard pressed to discern a difference and that's because of our eyes ability to compensate extremely well, so while an optical instrument used to measure these numbers may be able to pick up the difference that is not to say our eye can, again, all things being equal because if you pickup a "cheap" 5-25 scope that may have similar specs, the image you see will be vastly different due to the quality of the glass and coatings. When we hear claims like, "I was able to see 15 minutes longer past sunset with Scope X" I find these claims to be somewhat disingenuous because how did the user make this determination, were they in a controlled environment with both scopes side by side etc., or was their "perception" that they could see longer with scope X. And here is the rub, our "perceptions" have power over reality in many situations. Think of the magician, they are able to alter your perception through slight of hand and convince you to think you saw something you actually did not - I believe similar things happen when we look through scopes which is why we'll often see a group of shooters saying scope X is better than scope Y and another set saying the exact opposite.

Devil: "Only scopes using Schott HT glass have high transmission right?"
Bill: Again, go to my first paragraph above, there is a formula for glass and while there may be tweaks to this formula it is still a formula. Also, light transmission often is a result of the multi-coating(s) used which are themselves a formula. Keep in mind that many manufacturers like to keep their formula's secret, like Grandma's secret spaghetti sauce recipe handed down over the generations. But that's not to say that just because Schott has HT (High Transmission) glass, that other glass manufacturers can't create their own HT glass.



Maybe to those who don't know you ILya, but for those that do, your voice carries a lot of weight. Most of us do not have the experience that you have working with optics and lenses and everything in between.

Devil: "But the marketing materials say this or that"
Bill: What is the goal of Marketing, to bring awareness to a product in order to get sales. We've all seen the clever slogans, for those of you who are old, when I say the phrase "It takes a lickin' but keeps on..." what comes to mind? Anyone who's seen the old Timex commercials will immediately recognize this - clever marketing with a catchy phrase to get you to believe that Timex watches can withstand a lot of abuse. Think of what Nightforce did with their video a few years ago driving a large metal spike into some wood with the objective bell of one of their scopes, then mount it back up and it shoots straight. Does that mean other scopes couldn't do the same, certainly not, but that was clever marketing from NF to show how durable their scopes are.



Devil: "So why don't we see scopes on par with German glassed scopes coming from other areas?"
Bill: To ILya's point - "made for a specific purpose, to a specific budget". Over the past 7 years we have seen continual improvements from scopes coming from Japan (and improvements from Philippines and China as well) due to modern manufacturing methods and advancements in computer aided designs. March stands out as one of the Japanese manufacturer's who appear to be able to challenge the traditional European alpha class designation IMO. I have high hopes for what is to come from this manufacturer, but even Nightforce has shown improvement (look at the many claims the 7-35 "looks" better than the 5-25), Bushnell with their new ED Prime glass, Burris with the new XTR III showing great improvement over the XTR II and the many new designs from LOW that we are seeing pop up left and right these days. Not only that but Vortex has challenged with their AMG 6-24 scope, showing that even American sourced glass can prove to be a worthy competitor. So while the "best of the best" seems to have come from Europe I think we will begin to see the Japanese encroach further and further into the alpha class market.

What this all means for us is that better and better scopes are hitting the market and we shouldn't be worrying so much about where this is made or where that is made, but truly look to the quality of any given scope and judge it based on the merits of what it has to offer you and for your style of shooting.

Never know. Could be that Europe has better access to extremely low iron (the worst of the impurities you mention; the iron causes transmission of the glass to drop) raw materials.
 
OP, what’s funny is on Day 1 of the Brawl the leaders of the match were a 223 & 308

and to the f-classer, don’t they still shoot 308 at 1000yds ? I could’ve sworn there was a match this past weekend in Houston. I think I know a 308 that was shooting there also.

maybe they mortared the rounds in ??‍♂️
You should not swear, that's not nice. Yes, they do. I was one of those mortaring .308 rounds in.
 
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