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.223 trainer build - Am i nuts?

DellaDog

DellaDog

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Feb 23, 2017
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DFW, TX
Saw this build somewhere and considering ordering almost the exact build. My buddies think I'm nuts to drop $3500 on a .223 build. But, I'll be practicing a lot at 300 yds or less and want to remove all variables but me, the shooter. As written in the article, lots of practice with inexpensive rounds and longer barrel life.
Am i nuts?
Buddy says to go at least .270
Thanks
  • Defiance Deviant Action
  • Bartlein Sendero, 1-8 26″ (I'm thinking 24" instead) threaded 5/8×24 for use with suppressor
  • Manners T6A Elite
  • Jewell Trigge
TLDR :

Came full circle.

Shot the Creedmoor barrel out (about 2500 rounds) in just a few months. Liking the setup so much, I re-barreled it in 26” and built a duplicate rifle in 223. Now I can go a little easier on the 6.5 and shoot the shit out of the 223.

2F8C7811-DDC9-4157-9059-CB2CCF7D759E.jpeg
 
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That's a fine build, not a thing wrong. My only thought is, consider a 308. Barrel life is virtually the same, plentiful components if you reload, tons of factory ammo that is affordable if you don't, and a bit more versatile.

I have a 308 set up identical to my 260. It's my trainer. Just my .02
 
I can't see a thing wrong with that. Shooting the heavy bullets, it approaches larger calibers ballistically, you won't get fatigued shooting it and you won't go broke feeding it. My guns are in smaller calibers for just this reason. I don't reload yet but save my brass for the time when I will. I shoot 6.5 CM, 6.5x47L and my latest, a 243 pretty old custom on a Mauser 98 action that cost me a whopping $326 out the door with an ancient 3x9 Bushnell on the strangest scope mount I ever saw.
 
I wouldn't use a Deviant just because it's a little overkill for that rifle but the rest sounds good. I did mine with a Rem 700, 7.7 twist at 20" threaded 5/8-24, Manners folder with mini chassis and it shoots great with the 75 ELDs. Getting 2800fps.

zi1fqdn.jpg

438wOJ9.jpg

3GOPgX5.jpg


 
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Thanks for the responses,

Perhaps a stiller action? Really like the look and feel and integrated rail on the Defiance though.
Trying to get the weight down a bit
Switching to the lighter narrower Manners T6A elite - black.
Maybe go with a 22" barrel? Any harm other than slight loss of velocity?

Thats the kind of grouping I'm looking for Rob01.

Thanks
 
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Your money so buy what you want. Just giving my opinion which means nothing LOL.

No harm with a 22" barrel except some velocity loss as mentioned. Depends on what your plans are for the rifle. If you plan to shoot to 1000 a lot with it then I would probably go 24-26" but I was only planning on going to 600-800 regularly and a few times to 1000 so 20" worked better for me. You can go with a lighter contour barrel like a med palma to drop some weight.
 
If your primary/comp rifle in a chassis or stock that a .223 can be identical to? How about the action/trigger/scope/etc?

If it's a true trainer, consider running a near identical setup.

For general practice, a Tikka T3x .223 Varmint is under $800 and will probably group under 0.5MOA for you with match loads easily. Tikka aftermarket triggers are not plentiful, but the factory ones are good. If you can get an identical stock to your primary, it's not a bad way to go.
 
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Perhaps I should call it a Learner build and not a Trainer build.

I started this obsession with an FN15 AR - fun to shoot rounds into 2-3 inch circles at 100 yds., but not very accurate. I spent a lot of time searching for the best round and settled on 60-68 grain bullets that kept me around 1.5 - 2 MOA with the occasional 4" flyer. Once in a blue moon I'd get that nice 3 round clover, I wanted more.

So, I bought a CZ 527 American that reportedly shoots MOA or better (at 100 yds.) with factory loads. Well, not so much for me. Again, chased rounds (factory ammo) and decided it favors 55 grain HPBT. Freshly shooting the CZ after a few fouling rounds I can pretty much get a 3-4 round .75" group, but it quickly seems to climb after that - just about straight up. The next few will print with maybe a ½" horizontal deviation, but vertically they'll climb as much as 2-3 inches. I also found that the sporter barrel required significant cooling after only 5-7 fired rounds.

It's been suggested I glass bed the stock and I'm on a 4-week waiting list for that. (Why do all gunsmiths seem to quote a 4-6 week wait on any work?) While visiting this gun store (Alamo Precision Rifles in Hurst, TX) I was floored by the beautiful custom builds on the wall and decided that's for me.

I'm shooting A LOT, sometimes spending 8 hour days at the range; it's become an obsession more than a passion. Like the OP, I want to remove all variables but me, the shooter from the equation. I swore I'd never reload but have since dropped nearly $1000 on reload equipment to chase the perfect round.

I'm fortunate that I'm at a point in life where I have a lot of free time and can afford a few indulgences and I've chosen precision shooting. I shot expert in the Marine Corps 30 years ago (I know, no big deal, but the first time I ever touched a gun was on the KD range at Quantico) and loved it then.

Sorry for the long post, but nuts or not - I want to start/learn with a great 223 build and see if it leads to the next step - comp shooting with bigger and better equipment. Semper Fi.
 
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Looks like hand loading REALLY works. 52 grain Sierra Match Kings printing 3/8 - 3/4" 5 shot groups with the CZ on the first load.
Really looking forward to finding its "pet load" after pillar bedding.

My first bullet cost nearly $1200 though. IMG_0857.JPG
 
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Look into the 6x45mm. Run a fired 5.56 or .233 case through the sizing die and load. Shoot the heavier 6mm pills
 
A $1,000 on reloading equipment? My friend, you are just getting started. Enjoy your forthcoming .223 build.
 
May I suggest something like a TL3 in 223 so that in the future you can change barrel/bolt head/mag then shoot a short action cartridge? I mean if you are looking for a place to grow from then you would have very little in(dollars) moving up in power.
 
GGK said:
May I suggest something like a TL3 in 223 so that in the future you can change barrel/bolt head/mag then shoot a short action cartridge? I mean if you are looking for a place to grow from then you would have very little in(dollars) moving up in power.
Click to expand...

I thought about this, but decided I'll always have/keep a precision 223. When it's time to "step up" it'll be with a new rifle.
This 223 will be rebarrelled when needed and always on hand.
 
My trainer started as a $435 Savage Hog Hunter. New stock, Brux barrel, etc and five years later.... it's a bona fide 1000yd shooter if I can hold the wind ( the trainer part ). Shot Ftr with it for a while too. All you need is one of these and a $200 stock ( Choate, BC, etc) and you will be good to go_Of course you can make one as nice as you want. Now my Ftr rifle is a 223 CBI Remage barrel on a Stiller action with a Manner T4A mini-chassis stock; assembled in about an hour and shoots exceptionally well, good enough to beat most!
 
I'm pretty happy with the Tikka T3X 223 varmint. Started off by throwing some fishing weights in the factory stock... liked it so much that I put it in a MDT H3S chassis, with a prs stock to mimic the RPR 6.5.
 
Really looking forward to the build, but in the meantime this CZ 527 is really coming around.

100yds

photo68787.jpg


200 yds

photo68786.jpg
 
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Looks like time to start giving advice instead of looking for advice.
 
I have 3 Savage heavy barrel rifles; 2 configured for F T/R, and one for F Open.

The two are a .223 and .308, each a Savage 24' 11VT factory rifle with Choate Tactical stocks, Harris-style bipods, and Mueller 8-32x44 Target Dot 30mm scopes using side focus.

The third is an older 10FP action with an L-W 28" 260 barrel, 1:8" twist in a Savage Varmint taper. It has the same Mueller 8x32 and Harris-style bipod, using a McMillan pillar bedded A-3. The front sling stud is removed on the 260, and with the bipod absent, the rear stud serves as a forward stop for shooting off a rest.

They are about as close to identically configured as I would ever need, The older Savage bumps the entire trio above the $3500 total; but if that barrel was swapped to another 11VT .308 configured the same as the other two, I would have change left over from that total.

Rather than shooting the same, I'd rather have each shooting to around it's best potential. This would strongly suggest getting off the dime, getting info handloading, and doing some effective load development for each rifle.

The bulk of my non-competitive shooting with these guns is done with the .223. No need for the added expenditure of training with the bigger chamberings.

I can't tell you if you're nuts, and won't try. But I think I may have a better use for that $3500 dollars.

Greg
 
"... I can't tell you if you're nuts, and won't try. But I think I may have a better use for that $3500 dollars."

I read your response, carefully, three times and I'm not sure exactly what you're advocating. Could you please explain?

Yesterday, I put a Compass Lake Krieger 1-7.7 service upper on my 3-4 MOA FN15 and now, on the second day it can shoot 1/2" groups. So I'm thinking my trainer idea is overkill. Is that what you're implying, because it's not too late to switch to a heavier caliber, but I'm pretty much committed to the build.

Perhaps a newb jumped in too quickly. (I've been told I'm obsessed with this, probably true.)

BTW, the Compass Lake is a joy too shoot - and it was at my door 2 days after I was off the phone.

First 5 shots (once sighted) out of the barrel at 50 yards. 1 stray, on me of course.

IMG_0935.JPG

(If anyone's looking to unload 69 & 77 SMKs, I'l take 'em)
 
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Looks good. I was going to suggest a National Match AR. Flat Top? 77's will stay sonic to 800 and the Berger 82's will stay sonic to 1000 but there are better calibers for that range. Savage makes good bolt actions also. I use one for Long Range but don't shoot often enough.
 
Nope. Not advocating anything. If you think spending $3500 to build a trainer is a wise use for your money, feel free. Personally, I'm with your buddies on this.

Greg
 
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What are you training to shoot otherwise? And who is the buddy leaving out the 6 and 6.5mms? .270s are well and good, I've got 2, but things have come so far in the last ten years in other calibers they both spend almost all their time in the safe. This whole thing is preference. The only custom I own is almost exactly what you listed, but in 6.5cm with a Brux barrel and a XLR chassis. People told me I was nuts for spending what I did but that's the one that gets pulled out every time I go shoot and guess who wants to use it. Do what you want, buy once cry once. And out to +\- 600 yards the .223 is great. Good luck.


edit: I missed the whole first page. What they said.
 
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I went even smaller 20 VarTarg. After doing some math it costs me the same to shoot as most match grade rimfire ammo with the added bonus of being more consistent and avaliable.
 
This Compass Lake can shoot.
Sub .25”, 5 shots, actually measure closer to .200


photo72672.jpg
 
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Petrov said:
I went even smaller 20 VarTarg. After doing some math it costs me the same to shoot as most match grade rimfire ammo with the added bonus of being more consistent and avaliable.
Click to expand...

Ha, I was just thinking about this today for a trainer. What for I don't know but I like stuff that's different. 55gr Bergers at 2800 or so???

Tell us about yours.
 
steve123 said:
Ha, I was just thinking about this today for a trainer. What for I don't know but I like stuff that's different. 55gr Bergers at 2800 or so???

Tell us about yours.
Click to expand...

55 grains is a bit much for 20cal and what I do.
32 grains at 3500fps or so is what people usually run.

I did some math and if I was to use match quality rimfire ammunition if I could even find it I would break even or save money shooting vartarg.
So I get better performance and most certainly excellent accuracy out of it. Load development is incredibly easy and there is lots of load date for it out there.

 
Is it hard on steel at that speed? I see the appeal for varminting though.

People claim barrels don't heat up fast with Vartarg and it gets good barrel life. Any comments about those aspects?

What, around 17 grains of powder? What's your load?

Pics, details, is it a repeater?

I have a CZ 527 in 17 Remington going the same speed with 30gr Golds, the barrel is 17.5". Worried about barrel life so I rarely shoot steel with it, warm load and where the rifle shoots best.

Just for conversation... I had a 20x47L barrel done up for my M700 custom, the same rifle I used for tactical. 55's at 3830 fps but bullets started blowing up so abandoned that. Went to 40's at 4100 fps which for whatever reason works fine and is a light load.
 
OK, with the CLE shooting in the .2s and the CZ under .75 I think I'm covered in the.223.

Sub 1/2" at 200 yds. Hell of an AR15.

image_78505.jpg


Changed the build to a 6.5 Creedmoor. Who knows, maybe I'm still nuts.

Finally, I can't say enough good things about the staff at Alamo Precision Rifles. Robert, in particular, is as patient and knowledgeable as one could ask for when it comes to a new build. He took the time to answer every dumb question I asked, never once talked down to me and walked me through the entire build from start to finish, to include a complete tour of the shop.

Looking forward to a bit more "long range" shooting with the new build.
 
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Have you ever considered shooting some Highpower?

You have a pretty well developed group of shooters down that way, you have the background and the drive, and all the rifle/ammo pieces appear to be done.
 
natdscott said:
Have you ever considered shooting some Highpower?

You have a pretty well developed group of shooters down that way, you have the background and the drive, and all the rifle/ammo pieces appear to be done.
Click to expand...

And it's not too late to sign up for the Bayou regional the last weekend of March!
 
pineoak said:
If your primary/comp rifle in a chassis or stock that a .223 can be identical to? How about the action/trigger/scope/etc?

If it's a true trainer, consider running a near identical setup.

For general practice, a Tikka T3x .223 Varmint is under $800 and will probably group under 0.5MOA for you with match loads easily. Tikka aftermarket triggers are not plentiful, but the factory ones are good. If you can get an identical stock to your primary, it's not a bad way to go.
Click to expand...


Exactly this.

My primary comp rifle is on a LH Tikka T-3 action, Manners T-4, bartlein, CDI bottom metal, 6.5 Creedmoor. Tikka does not offer a LH Varmint, so I got a LH .223, and another Bartlein to be chambered in .223 A.I. It will handle and cycle exacly like the the 6.5 Creedmoor, but at half the powder, and saving barrel life on the 6.5, and ride in the same stock, with the same bottom metal. Two action screws, two nuts on the scope rings, and I swap over. If Tikka offered a LH Varmint, with a 1:8, I would have just ordered one of those. And the 1:8 loaded right, will go much farther than 300 yards.
 
natdscott said:
Have you ever considered shooting some Highpower?

You have a pretty well developed group of shooters down that way, you have the background and the drive, and all the rifle/ammo pieces appear to be done.
Click to expand...


I have, thanks.
My local range has a small group that compete in high power and I’ll soon participate.
I liked the Compass Lake so much I had Frank build a mirror copy in carbine length - another 1/2” shooter.
I’ll need to reconfigure the service rifle a bit to comply with the rules. The carbine now has an UBR on it that I’ll move to the service rifle.

2BDD6C8D-80A3-4BF6-8A0F-0AA6B769E5D1.jpeg
 
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I realize OP went a different direction since the original discussion, but what are opinions on a .243 in lieu of .223? For a handloader this seems like a really versatile cartridge, and maybe the added component costs are worth that tradeoff. Only reason I don't have one is lack of factory match ammo.
 
Apnea said:
I realize OP went a different direction since the original discussion, but what are opinions on a .243 in lieu of .223? For a handloader this seems like a really versatile cartridge, and maybe the added component costs are worth that tradeoff. Only reason I don't have one is lack of factory match ammo.
Click to expand...

The issue is cost, mostly. The enitre PURPOSE behind a trainer is to result in more rounds being sent downrange. .243 is NOT a cheap cartridge.

Really, .223 isn't either for the better rounds, but it's still cheaper than .243.

And besides, if you want to jump off the diving board into cartridges to use, .243 is a fine PRIMARY rifle cartridge, much less a trainer.

-Nate
 
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Fine looking rifle, nice build. I agree, the .243 makes for a better primary rifle than a trainer. But I also prefer the .260 for the primary, better ballistics.

Best fortune with your new beauty.

Greg
 
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Thank you, it can shoot as well. These groups are 41.0 H4350 while playing with seating depth.


defiance seating.jpg
 
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I started out cheap for my trainer. I bought a R700 ADL Varmint at Cabelas, on sale from $425 to $350, then had a $75 Remington mail in rebate. So $275. I dropped it in an XLR Element chassis, got a screaming deal on a 28" heavy profile McGowan Remage barrel in 223 Ackley Improved, dropped a Burris scope on it that I already owned, and I have a sweet trainer for under 1k.

I use 55gr Hornady FMJ's on a 4" target at 200 yards for barricade and positional training, which is the bulk of it's use. I load those for about .20 cents a piece. And I run 80gr ELD-M's out to 1000 yards. I get over 3000fps out of those using 8208XBR, and it's damn accurate.

I shot this 2.7" group at 510 yards while I was confirming dope out to 1100 yards. I get these groups all the time with it.

K0hObCT.jpg
 
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Came full circle.
Shot the Creedmoor barrel out (about 2500 rounds) in just a few months. Liking the setup so much, I re-barreled it in 26” and built a duplicate rifle in 223. Now I can go a little easier on the 6.5 and shoot the shit out of the 223.

The twins...

BB5D6D9A-0EDB-4679-9468-73BCBA984C23.jpeg


7FFBCACA-6679-4DAA-A4A9-E3AD67B5FD09.jpeg
 
I love my 223 trainer just sent it off to have it threaded. I don't know why I didn't originally. I started out with a short barreled 308 trainer that I could run a can on and it worked great also but we are running 6 brs know so I think the 223 will more mirror it. I have three Krg bravo stocks and run one on my trainer and find the ergonomics are very close to my manners.
 
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