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Carbon rings..

5RWill

5RWill

Optics Fiend
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Minuteman
    • Oct 15, 2009
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    Mississippi
    Alright i was shooting yesterday and chambered a round that was bit hard to chamber so i extracted it, low and behold bullet was stuck powder went everywhere. I figured maybe i messed up and it was jammed into the lands. Get back to the house knock the bullet out and still can't chamber a round. Check my OAL with the hornady gauge, it appears my lands have shrunk. I know this is not possible. The rifle had been fired probably 500rds or so but i cleaned it just two weeks ago with patches and Hoppes. Cleaned it again last night using a big patch and knocked out a little chunk of carbon. So i'm getting a brush and some CLR but i'm wondering how this just formed all of a sudden?

    It's to note i did leave this batch of 4166 out in my chargemaster for two weeks before coming back and loading it. Least i checked it before i loaded it by burning some. I wonder if that's the issue?
     
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    https://www.brownells.com/gun-clean...ts/weapons-care-system-pellets-prod13839.aspx

    I found this system to be the fastest way to remove a carbon ring. That sure sounds like what you are experiencing.
    Screenshot_20180304-142544.png
     
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    I've never had this happen to any of my rifles. I assumed we had some build up in dad's SAUM but hell this was so bad i got a round stuck.. and it dramatically reduced my OAL/COL to the lands. I'm going to see if i can find some of those, brownells was out of stock for 6.5mm. But yeah was a little puzzled.
     
    5RWill said:
    I've never had this happen to any of my rifles. I assumed we had some build up in dad's SAUM but hell this was so bad i got a round stuck.. and it dramatically reduced my OAL/COL to the lands. I'm going to see if i can find some of those, brownells was out of stock for 6.5mm. But yeah was a little puzzled.
    Click to expand...
    This happen to my 300nm using "enduron" 7977 imr..i dnt use this powder anymore i also got 4166..i hope its not this new tye powder creating ring carbon..sometimes its neck clearance
     
    Happened bad with my creed, h4350 and a 30p1. Nylon brush and wipe out's carb out was what I used.
     
    bjay said:
    This happen to my 300nm using "enduron" 7977 imr..i dnt use this powder anymore i also got 4166..i hope its not this new tye powder creating ring carbon..sometimes its neck clearance
    Click to expand...
    Hell i guess it's just something that happens. I've not had any issue with 4166 until now. Granted i did leave it out for two weeks. Thus far i've really liked the Enduron line. Least in my experience it's been pretty clean. I have some 7977 because h1000 is absolutely filthy though i've since switched to reloader 26 for dad's SAUM.
     
    Maybe i need to do the same. I ran 20 shots through it today and i've lost probably 80fps compared to what i was last getting. SD was solid at 6.4 out of 8 shots but at 2734fps compared to 2815fps i'm a bit concerned. I'm ordering some of those pellets and going to a friends to make sure the carbon ring is completely gone before the F-class match this weekend.

    Maybe it's just because i left that powder out or a huge lot variance as i've been buying single 1lbs for a while.
     
    You may be dealing with 2 separate issues or they maybe they are related.
    Leaving the powder out may have caused it to absorb moisture thus causing the velocity drop.
    Maybe the moisture in the powder could of also caused the excessive carbon buildup, who knows.

    You may want to look at parker hale style jags as you wrap the patch around them and they can be pulled back and forth.
     
    whatsupdoc said:
    You may be dealing with 2 separate issues or they maybe they are related.
    Leaving the powder out may have caused it to absorb moisture thus causing the velocity drop.
    Maybe the moisture in the powder could of also caused the excessive carbon buildup, who knows.

    You may want to look at parker hale style jags as you wrap the patch around them and they can be pulled back and forth.
    Click to expand...

    I was thinking the same as a friend of mine on here mentioned that to me when i proposed the issue to him. I used almost all the rest of that powder for another 30rds to carry this weekend and chunked the rest.
     
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    5R I was seeing different results than you with my carbon ring. I was getting major velocity spikes which generally means pressure spikes. I was also seeing extreme spreads in 100-150fps range.
     
    RoterJager said:
    5R I was seeing different results than you with my carbon ring. I was getting major velocity spikes which generally means pressure spikes. I was also seeing extreme spreads in 100-150fps range.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah it's bizarre i would think i'd run into pressure rather than a drop. Though i'm not sure that's so much the carbon ring as the powder. Though i definitely had something in there to have a round stick and then not be able to chamber a round.
     
    5RWill said:
    Yeah it's bizarre i would think i'd run into pressure rather than a drop. Though i'm not sure that's so much the carbon ring as the powder. Though i definitely had something in there to have a round stick and then not be able to chamber a round.
    Click to expand...

    Is there a ring around the circumference of your projectile? Just slightly in front of the O-Give?
     
    Maybe it's just because i left that powder out or a huge lot variance as i've been buying single 1lbs for a while.[/QUOTE]

    That is only part that should change and buy 8lb at a time all the time.
     
    I have the same problem when using Enduron powders like the IMR4451 in three different rifles, just a couple passes with an oversized nylon brush in the chamber/throat and you are ready to go.
     
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    Are you reloading in a humid environment? I'm not fully understanding your comments on leaving the powder for two weeks. Also was this shot suppressed?
     
    arm017 said:
    Are you reloading in a humid environment? I'm not fully understanding your comments on leaving the powder for two weeks. Also was this shot suppressed?
    Click to expand...

    I’m currently in grad school. I loaded one weekend and left a pound of 4166 in my chargemaster and wasn’t home for 2 weeks.

    dannySH said:
    I have the same problem when using Enduron powders like the IMR4451 in three different rifles, just a couple passes with an oversized nylon brush in the chamber/throat and you are ready to go.
    Click to expand...
    Damn i hope it’s not enduron specific.
     
    5RWill said:
    I loaded one weekend and left a pound of 4166 in my chargemaster and wasn’t home for 2 weeks.
    Click to expand...

    I have tested powder that was left out for over a month vs fresh from the keg and velocities were identical. If you're worried about it dump it back into the keg and shake it up. Modern powders are very stable and minimally hygroscopic. Now if you leave it outside and bake it in the sun, sure, but in a climate controlled house it should be fine for a long time.
     
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    When using the " don't clean the barrel until accuracy falls off " approach, a carbon ring is a likely outcome. I've done that approach, and the challenge is getting the barrel clean; learned a lot using my cheap endoscope. With the naked eye the barrel can look great (you see the lands) when the grooves are full of carbon. At that point it is advised that only an abrasive such as Iosso on a nylon brush will get it clean, esp the carbon ring. Didn't work for me. Multiple cycles of spray carb cleaner and 500 strokes with the brass brush shed many carbon flakes until finally clean. Solvent and patches will not touch the grooves. This process on several barrels did not change POI or accuracy, including Fclass accuracy. Note I did not final swab with oil, just solvent. I no longer run the extended no-clean approach, and do a moderate cleaning with carb cleaner and nylon brushes approx every 75 shots.
     
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    One thing that will accelerate a carbon ring buildup is letting the first 6" of your barrel get slugged up some.Onething that works for me on guns prone to a ring, I keep 2 rds with bullets seated deep in the case, it'll usually blow the ring out,so you can still shoot, but needs to be cleaned.
     
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    Milo 2.5 said:
    ROB 01 dropped the hammer there, light loads are dirty.
    Click to expand...
    I agree with both but still thinking Enduron is more prone than other powders to do so. With IMR 4451 "light" loads I had that problem every 80-100 fired rounds, when I went to a hotter load it happened just once. Neve had this problem with another type of powder.
     
    dannySH said:
    I agree with both but still thinking Enduron is more prone than other powders to do so. With IMR 4451 "light" loads I had that problem every 80-100 fired rounds, when I went to a hotter load it happened just once. Neve had this problem with another type of powder.
    Click to expand...
    You should buy quickload, 99.8% total burn loads rarely produce a ring. It's not powder specific. AR's are the most prone to carbon rings, doubt enduron powders see much use in them.
     
    I wouldn't think 36.3gr is a light load. It's light considering what people push the 6.5x47 too but it is above max. I bought some brushes to scrub the crap out.

    I've overall lost 80fps from my normal load average went from 2815fps to 2735fps. SD is solid at 6.2 out of 8 shots.

    Going to scrub it and shooting 1000yd F-class this weekend for the first time.
     
    Got some VFG pellets on the way. Hit it with a nylon brush the day of the F-class. Should be able to thoroughly clean everything this week.

    Still getting 2735 even with the new batch of 4166. I loaded up some Varget tonight just to see where a couple of charges land. If Varget is largely reading the same i guess it's just my barrel going south on me.
     
    Lightly cleaned before going to the range today ran 36.2, 36.4, 36.6, and 36.8gr of varget today 36.2 yielded 2755. 36.8 got me back up to 2796. So varget seems to be faster per charge at the moment.

    About 20-30rds in ran into the carbon ring again. Finally got some pics to show. Going to get some CLR tomorrow and get rid of it once for and for all.
    IMG_2616.JPG

    IMG_2617.JPG
     
    Will,

    are you measuring to the Ogive with a tool or just loading OAL so you can fit the mag? Did you recently change lots of bullets? That looks to me like you are deep into the lands. If not, You're throat is caked.

    If you're not loaded too long and it came back in 30 rounds, stop the horse shit and go get some JB bore paste, a nylon 6.5mm brush and a nylon 6mm brush, black hard type. Use the 6mm wrapped in a patch, coat it with JB and make 7 or 8 passes throat to crown (no exit) New patch, with more JB and short stroke the fuck out of it. Patch must have a tight fit in the bore and ensure the brush isn't unscrewing. You will feel the difference between an area that is carbon free and one that has deposits. Work the rough area until it feels like the smooth parts down the bore. Then, 20-30 passes with the 6.5mm brush and flush with Hoppes, etc. Once flushed, repeat the 6mm with JB patch. If it feels fine, flush out, wipe and you're done. If not, repeat until its smooth . Don't worry about the black on the patch, it's normal.

    Yes, you can over do this and make the barrel a little harder to clean but right now you have a tomato stake, so you have nothing to lose. The 6.5x284s get this every 250-300 rounds. Flitz works too.
     
    Last edited:
    FatBoy said:
    Will,

    are you measuring to the Ogive with a tool or just loading OAL so you can fit the mag? Did you recently change lots of bullets? That looks to me like you are deep into the lands. If not, You're throat is caked.

    If you're not loaded too long and it came back in 30 rounds, stop the horse shit and go get some JB bore paste, a nylon 6.5mm brush and a nylon 6mm brush, black hard type. Use the 6mm wrapped in a patch, coat it with JB and make 7 or 8 passes throat to crown (no exit) New patch, with more JB and short stroke the fuck out of it. Patch must have a tight fit in the bore and ensure the brush isn't unscrewing. You will feel the difference between an area that is carbon free and one that has deposits. Work the rough area until it feels like the smooth parts down the bore. Then, 20-30 passes with the 6.5mm brush and flush with Hoppes, etc. Once flushed, repeat the 6mm with JB patch. If it feels fine, flush out, wipe and you're done. If not, repeat until its smooth . Don't worry about the black on the patch, it's normal.

    Yes, you can over do this and make the barrel a little harder to clean but right now you have a tomato stake, so you have nothing to lose. The 6.5x284s get this every 250-300 rounds. Flitz works too.
    Click to expand...

    What he said. You are dealing with some hard stuff to remove.
     
    FatBoy said:
    Will,

    are you measuring to the Ogive with a tool or just loading OAL so you can fit the mag? Did you recently change lots of bullets? That looks to me like you are deep into the lands. If not, You're throat is caked.

    If you're not loaded too long and it came back in 30 rounds, stop the horse shit and go get some JB bore paste, a nylon 6.5mm brush and a nylon 6mm brush, black hard type. Use the 6mm wrapped in a patch, coat it with JB and make 7 or 8 passes throat to crown (no exit) New patch, with more JB and short stroke the fuck out of it. Patch must have a tight fit in the bore and ensure the brush isn't unscrewing. You will feel the difference between an area that is carbon free and one that has deposits. Work the rough area until it feels like the smooth parts down the bore. Then, 20-30 passes with the 6.5mm brush and flush with Hoppes, etc. Once flushed, repeat the 6mm with JB patch. If it feels fine, flush out, wipe and you're done. If not, repeat until its smooth . Don't worry about the black on the patch, it's normal.

    Yes, you can over do this and make the barrel a little harder to clean but right now you have a tomato stake, so you have nothing to lose. The 6.5x284s get this every 250-300 rounds. Flitz works too.
    Click to expand...
    His scuff marks are quite a
    linedrive301ft said:
    What he said. You are dealing with some hard stuff to remove.
    Click to expand...
    Not really, carbon rings form on the 45 deg angle where the neck transitions into the barrel or freebore. Soak a patch with Boretech C4, jam into the tight spot and let it sit, repeat, then buy a bronze brush the next caliber up and get a sectioned cleaning rod and spin it in the area. I'd imagine he didn't remotely remove it first go at cleaning, and it's just growing.
    Edit: one thing that can facilitate a carbon ring growth is buildup in the first 5-6" of the barrel, running JB paste or Hollands witches brew in that general area can help, no reason to run the length of the barrel unless pinch points are felt with a jag.
     
    FatBoy said:
    Will,

    are you measuring to the Ogive with a tool or just loading OAL so you can fit the mag? Did you recently change lots of bullets? That looks to me like you are deep into the lands. If not, You're throat is caked.

    If you're not loaded too long and it came back in 30 rounds, stop the horse shit and go get some JB bore paste, a nylon 6.5mm brush and a nylon 6mm brush, black hard type. Use the 6mm wrapped in a patch, coat it with JB and make 7 or 8 passes throat to crown (no exit) New patch, with more JB and short stroke the fuck out of it. Patch must have a tight fit in the bore and ensure the brush isn't unscrewing. You will feel the difference between an area that is carbon free and one that has deposits. Work the rough area until it feels like the smooth parts down the bore. Then, 20-30 passes with the 6.5mm brush and flush with Hoppes, etc. Once flushed, repeat the 6mm with JB patch. If it feels fine, flush out, wipe and you're done. If not, repeat until its smooth . Don't worry about the black on the patch, it's normal.

    Yes, you can over do this and make the barrel a little harder to clean but right now you have a tomato stake, so you have nothing to lose. The 6.5x284s get this every 250-300 rounds. Flitz works too.
    Click to expand...

    Yeah i don't look at OAL at all, just CBTO. Measured the to the lands before and after a little scrubbing. 3.090 with the comp. Seated them 10 thou off per usual 3.080. I literally chambered every single round the night before last also without issue. Shooting yesterday as i said i got 20-30rds in and suddenly was having those issues. So yeah it's bad. From what i read CLR does the trick best for carbon. I'm going to get some in a minute, dunno where i'd get JB bore paste. I've got nylon and brass 6.5 brushes and regular patches. Also have some VFG pellets on the way too.
     
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    So i was going off a friends and Greg @ primal rights use of CLR. That's all i have local to me in this small town anyway. I ran probably 8-10 soaked patches through the barrel with scrubbing between then. All i have is 6.5 pro shooter nylon and brass brushes. I wrapped the 6.5 in a patch and ran it through once or twice. I tried the brass brush but without a bore guide it was too hard to do and i didn't want to bend the rod. I let it set with the CLR in the barrel for 20 min while scrubbing some before drying it completely. I can't see a carbon ring but i don't have a bore scope so that is moot.

    New lands measurement is 3.104 with comp versus 3.090 according to my last measurement three days ago. I assume part of that was the carbon ring. Idk if it's completely gone though. Here is two wet patches. One on the left is one of the first pass throughs one on the right is the last soaked patch i ran through it.

    Should i keep scrubbing? Buddy of mine acts like it shouldn't be that easy to remove but i never really felt it to be honest. It is easier to run those large patches through now than it was before. Those are .27-30 cal patches rather than running .22-.26 cal patches.
    IMG_2623.jpg

    IMG_2624.jpg
     
    5RWill said:
    Should i keep scrubbing? Buddy of mine acts like it shouldn't be that easy to remove but i never really felt it to be honest. It is easier to run those large patches through now than it was before. Those are .27-30 cal patches rather than running .22-.26 cal patches.
    Click to expand...

    The only way to be 100% certain is with a bore scope but since you dont have that we cant say. But I wouldnt have expected one patch to come out dirty and the next to not have any soot at all what so ever on it...

    You said you let it sit with CLR soaking it for 20 minuets, did you spin the brass brush in the throat by chance? While I think the CLR would work I would fully expect to have to do some manual scrubbing/mechanical action to it and not just chemical to get rid of that hard carbon deposit.
     
    Will I wish I had took a before picture of this brake but I honestly did not think the slip 2000 would work....long story short...this brake had about an 1/8” of carbon build up I put it in the slip 2000 for about 12 hours took it out and most of the carbon was gone what was left I touched with a screw driver and it fell off....this was last weekend and the slip 2000 is probably 3+ years old.
     

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    The slip 2000 carbon killer is what I run on my VFG pellets. That is great stuff! spife is correct. Without a borescope, you're going to have to scrub until your patch runs clean.
     
    with the slip(if it were me)id plug the muzzle fill the barrel and let it sit for 24 hours then scrub it...a buddy of mine had a carbon ring and it was causing bad pressure spikes...after trying to clean it out he ended up having the barrel set back.
     
    spife7980 said:
    The only way to be 100% certain is with a bore scope but since you dont have that we cant say. But I wouldnt have expected one patch to come out dirty and the next to not have any soot at all what so ever on it...

    You said you let it sit with CLR soaking it for 20 minuets, did you spin the brass brush in the throat by chance? While I think the CLR would work I would fully expect to have to do some manual scrubbing/mechanical action to it and not just chemical to get rid of that hard carbon deposit.
    Click to expand...

    That patch on the left was one of the first run. The one on the right was like 10-12 later. I went back and did it again for another 20 minutes with soaked .27 cal patches and the brush. Then dried it. Patches were absolutely spotless. So about an hour of cleaning. Shot 30-40rds no issue. Just measured the lands. Still 3.104. Going to load up some more varget tonight and see how it goes tomorrow.
     
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    Problem with patches is they do not reflect what is in the grooves.
     
    @5RWill after scrubbing like that with CLR, I see no way possible you could have any carbon left in the throat. I bet it's shiny bright metal in there. ... but you really should invest in a lyman digital bore scope. Cheap and easy way to see what's going on in there.

    Do you shoot suppressed and store your rifles vertically, barrel up? If so, you can easily have a big flake of nasty fall out of the suppressor down into the barrel... and this can cause some hell on guys. It's happened to me a few times. Usually ends up on the shoulder of the case though rather than up on the bullet/neck.

    For your consideration:
    http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/evolution-barrel-cleaning
     
    Last edited:
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    orkan said:
    @5RWill after scrubbing like that with CLR, I see no way possible you could have any carbon left in the throat. I bet it's shiny bright metal in there. ... but you really should invest in a lyman digital bore scope. Cheap and easy way to see what's going on in there.

    Do you shoot suppressed and store your rifles vertically, barrel up? If so, you can easily have a big flake of nasty fall out of the suppressor down into the barrel... and this can cause some hell on guys. It's happened to me a few times. Usually ends up on the shoulder of the case though rather than up on the bullet/neck.

    For your consideration:
    http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/evolution-barrel-cleaning
    Click to expand...
    Ha I should've tagged you man your article and a friend are what turned me on to CLR.

    I thought so too. I basically did the same routine twice over an hour. Soaked it with patches and scrubbed. I figured a bore scope was an expensive piece, i'll get one on order. Ran several patches through it dry and had no residue what so ever on them.

    I do shoot suppressed and store them up but never leave the can on. Bit off topic, but the only issues I've had that have left me scratching my head with the can have been pressure spikes that seem to occur during strings whilst shooting suppressed. My 18" 6.5x47 for instance I worked up a load suppressed in the winter, which albeit was a stout charge. Shot it yesterday, 8 shots in without issue, shots 9 and 10 are seriously overpressured. I figured well it's a stout charge i'll just back down. Let the gun rest bolt open. Take the can off and run another 50rds or so without issue. Velocity over the chrono is normal as it was during the winter 2840/2850. Had this happen several times during the winter only when the can is on. I had a theory of the rounds reaching ambient temp and then being stuck into a warm chamber caused a little condensation. Hell I pulled a round in the winter with a bead of water on it. After I had wiped everything down to insure the gun wasn't picking up lube or anything. Regardless i'm going to back off. Should be another node towards 2800fps or so, which was my original goal regardless.
     
    orkan said:
    I’ve seen that same pressure issue you describe but suppressor on or off didn’t matter. We never did solve it. Ended up building a new rifle. Lol
    Click to expand...

    Lol don’t tell me that. I’ve only had it happen on this particular rifle. Can never recall shooting suppressed and having random pressure spikes with my tempest build. I’ll back down a bit anyway as i didn’t like having to settle powder.
     
    5RWill said:
    Lol don’t tell me that. I’ve only had it happen on this particular rifle. Can never recall shooting suppressed and having random pressure spikes with my tempest build. I’ll back down a bit anyway as i didn’t like having to settle powder.
    Click to expand...


    what's the barrel manufacturer, action and who did the chamber? I'm just curious, iv had the exact same issue with my creed. I quit shooting it with a can and have just run a brake on it now because of it.
     
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