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PRS Talk Here’s what really matters for the novice to intermediate shooter

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Dthomas3523

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    • Jan 31, 2018
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    ***this is not intended for more experienced shooters as most of this is a given at that point***

    So, after reading countless threads about practice and such, as well as scouring through 50+ matches, I’ve narrowed down to two things novice to intermediate skill level shooters should focus on that will drastically improve their match placement/performance.

    1: Dope (Prone)

    2: 100yd positional shooting off props

    For example, the last match I shot there were two stages that had the most amount of top 10 match placement in the top 10 for the stage. The 900yd stage and the 100yd paper stage. The rest of the stages had some random amount of mid pack shooters mixed into the top 10 for the stage.

    Dope is obvious. If you don’t have good dope, you can’t begin to expect to do well in a match.

    Fundamentals goes hand in hand with dope. As you cannot record good data if your shots are not consistent. So, you MUST have good fundamentals to expect good data.


    Moving to positional shooting off props. You absolutely MUST be able to build stable positions to do well in prs style matches. Shooting these at 100yds removes wind from the equation. So there is zero reason other than the shooter or the rifle if you are not able to perform @ 100yds.

    The MOST OVERRATED skill for a *novice to intermediate* shooter is the ability to read wind. You could read wind down to 1mph and if you don’t have proper fundamentals/dope/position, you’ll never be consistent.

    If you missed the first shot on every stage in a match, but you were able to see your shot, make a proper correction, and hit the rest of the shots......you’d be an upper pack shooter. In a local match, that would only be 7-10 dropped shots (7-10 stages) on average. That’s all with ZERO wind reading ability. Obviously some matches with switchy winds would skew the results. I’m speaking generally.

    So, for the novice to intermediate shooters, here is my suggestion for training/practice:

    1: absolutely hammer the fundamentals until you’re sick of it (get proper instruction and take classes)

    2: have absolute rock solid dope

    3: practice @ 100yds only. 1” and 2” dot drills. Prone and positional off props. You can get away with just a prs barricade if need be.

    Do not stress about needing 4-800yds to practice. I’ll quote Erik Cortina here......if you can’t shoot tiny groups at 100, what makes you think you can do it at 1000?
     
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    Novice shooter here.

    Recently found out that my dope was off because I used the advertised BC on 140 ELDM's. I ended up having to true my dope to 1000 yards and I figured out that the actual BC was nowhere near the advertised BC for the ELDMs. Then I went down the BC rabbit hole and I'm now switching to Berger 144's LRHT. I read that they average the BC down to mach 1.5 or something like that unlike other manufacturer's who skew their numbers for marketing purposes.

    On a side note, I have trouble spotting my own shots when I miss. I shoot 6.5 Creedmoor and I'm mostly on around 8x magnification. When I miss, all I see is a bunch of dirt kick up and I cannot tell if I'm hitting left or right, or even high or low for that matter.
     
    OyVey said:
    Novice shooter here.

    Recently found out that my dope was off because I used the advertised BC on 140 ELDM's. I ended up having to true my dope to 1000 yards and I figured out that the actual BC was nowhere near the advertised BC for the ELDMs. Then I went down the BC rabbit hole and I'm now switching to Berger 144's LRHT. I read that they average the BC down to mach 1.5 or something like that unlike other manufacturer's who skew their numbers for marketing purposes.

    On a side note, I have trouble spotting my own shots when I miss. I shoot 6.5 Creedmoor and I'm mostly on around 8x magnification. When I miss, all I see is a bunch of dirt kick up and I cannot tell if I'm hitting left or right, or even high or low for that matter.
    Click to expand...

    Turn magnification up to 15x and see if that helps.

    If not, refer to #1 and hammer in your fundamentals
     
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    morganlamprecht said:
    I’ve wanted to do an entire club match at 100 yds for a while...all the normal stages, but just put paper target stands @ 100 w/ 1” dots...would be kinda a pain tho to setup and score

    It would be an eye opener for a lot of people I’m sure lol
    Click to expand...

    I think I might make a 100yd paper a standard when I make a cof. Be interesting to track. But I’m willing to bet it will be the stage that has the most consistent concentration of shooters that do well in the match overall. The other stages might have a mix of a few random shooters mixed in at the top. But I doubt that would be the case with paper.
     
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    Good stuff, completely agree. The one other thing I'd add to the mix would be target acquisition. See so many new shooters spend 2/3 of their stage hunting around looking for where the target is in the scope.

    Big advantage for a shooter if they can build the basic skill of "see target, point gun at target, find target in scope".
     
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    Great advice,

    One thing I would want people to consider practicing is getting into and out of their alternate positions under time. You want to move to a prop and work to get that first well-aimed shot off in about 10 to 15 seconds. I see a lot of people trying to practice props from a static position, versus practicing the movement to and from.

    How well you can establish a stable position, and how quickly you can locate the target and engage with a shot. Then understand you most likely have to move to a new position, so working that side of the equation. We often repeat, "find it with your eyes and kill it with the scope" as a way to help locate targets.

    For Dope, absolutely work those waterlines on steel. Also, recognize the size of the targets you are engaging. We see a lot of people obsess over software being off a 1/10th or .2 when the plates are .8 tall and .6 wide. Recognize things shift, move and weather will bump things a bit today. But those shifts are normally quite small in comparison to the target size. Fine-tune your data on paper if need be, but if you are shooting steel, a reference point is a must.

    great points,
     
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    lowlight said:
    Great advice,

    One thing I would people to consider practicing it getting into and out their alternate positions under time. You want to move to a prop and work to get that first well-aimed shot off in about 10 to 15 seconds. I see a lot of people trying to practice props from a static position, versus practicing the movement to and from.

    How well you can establish a stable position, and how quickly you can locate the target and engage with a shot. Then understand you most likely have to move to a new position, so working that side of the equation. We often repeat, "find with your eyes and kill it with the scope" as a way to help locate targets.

    For Dope, absolutely work those waterlines on steel. Also, recognize the size of the targets you are engaging. We see a lot of people obsess over software being off a 1/10th or .2 when the plates are .8 tall and .6 wide. Recognize things shift, move and weather will bump thing day today. But those shifts are normally quite small in comparison to the target size. Fine-tune your data on paper if need be, but if you are shooting steel, a reference point is a must.

    great points,
    Click to expand...
    Thank you for the suggestion, I definitely need to work on this. I've discovered it's one thing to make a good shot, it's quite another when you have to make 10 or 12 good shots in 2.5 minutes and move/re-establish a stable position between targets.
     
    Agreed. The two biggest questions or problems outside of dope that I see are:

    What was your wind

    I can’t find the targets

    Target acquisition has been covered well Sheldon and Frank. But I want to reiterate wind again......

    Forget it as a beginner for the most part. Sure, pay attention to it and try to make a call, but at the end of the day, you’re probably shooting a 6 or 6.5 variant. If you‘re not sure, someone will tell you what they held......or just start with .3-.5 (2moa target is approx .6 so .3 is “edge of plate.”

    And focus your energy on spotting that first shot. If you got the wind call wrong, it will literally give you the answer (switchy wind matches excluded).

    I’ve lost count how many times someone complains about getting “weird wind” when they are slapping the trigger and have to ask “where did that go.”

    Wind calling is the absolute most overrated skill for newer/novice shooter IMO and I can’t state that enough.
     
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    If your fundamentals are flawed, if you are even slightly rolled over, your wind calls are worthless.

    A lot of you go into a shot as a new shooter, so when doping the wind you have to make sure you are executing the FoM correctly.

    Get your rifles MPH, and work in increments of that number. Know how many tens to add when you have a 6 MPH rifle and an 8 MPH wind, a quick single page chart or cheat sheet should be enough to help establish.

    if you shoot in the wind and find your groups on paper are stringing, that is probably more you than the wind. You can still group in the wind, so practice it.

    Work it both ways, holding and dialing, just remember if you dial you have to reset it each and every time.

    Great thread
     
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    One thing I would like to add, if you tend to have mental mistakes, consider adding your pre-stage checklist to your practice and also a timer. I know personally, I tend to time-out about 3-5 stages a match which usually costs me about 5-10 points per match. I started timing and videoing some of my practice stages and it has helped me diagnose how I lose time. And, all of this can be done at 100 yards or dry firing.
     
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    pizfiz said:
    I started timing and videoing some of my practice stages and it has helped me diagnose how I lose time. And, all of this can be done at 100 yards or dry firing.
    Click to expand...

    Time is a big killer for sure. I think it goes back to Lowlights comments about working on transitions and "find it with your eyes, kill it with your scope" target acquisition. So many people try to rush in order to beat the clock, but the real time is saved in being accurate and efficient with your transitions and position building. You can move very methodically, almost slow even, but if there is no waste in your movements you will be fine on time.
     
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    I agree. For me, I needed to see the inefficient movement and also the time it takes for me to get a really quiet reticle. I always find the target quick, but finding a stable position quickly was not very good.

    I think in general terms, none of this can be addressed without tons of trial and error. I think experimenting and dry firing is huge for finding what really works.
     
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    pizfiz said:
    I agree. For me, I needed to see the inefficient movement and also the time it takes for me to get a really quiet reticle. I always find the target quick, but finding a stable position quickly was not very good.

    I think in general terms, none of this can be addressed without tons of trial and error. I think experimenting and dry firing is huge for finding what really works.
    Click to expand...

    Single shot drills work. Time yourself to build a position, get reticle wobble under control, and make a shot. Then take everything back down and start over. If you shoot 10 shots, you build 10 positions. Instead of building 1 position and 10 shots. You’ll see this in classes when they teach you to shoot prone. “Build and break” drills.

    And I’m a big proponent in breaking training down. Don’t try to train everything at once. You can do your build and break drills @ 100yds with dots that are easy to find.

    Then you can work on target acquisition @ 400-1000yds dryfiring. Work on either seeing the target with your eye or the landmark near it. Then settling into the optic. You can start with the rifle already on the bag and setup, and then work your way into building the position and finding it. Don’t worry about live fire. Just dry fire if you want.

    A mistake I see is when people try to incorporate way too much into a training session or exercise. Start out breaking it down into small and very focused exercises. Then work on putting it together.

    Even if you only get one range trip a week or a month. If you’re going to be there for two hours, break it down into 10-20min focused parts. Start with your problem areas and go from there.

    Unstructured practice is just having fun at the range. Structured practice is the only way to see timely tangible results.
     
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    Also, down the road, once you have your position building down, and know how long it takes to build and get a shot off, and how long for follow up shots....

    Some MD’s purposely make stages you may not be able to complete. It makes the shooter decide if they want to rush or take their time.

    So, when you see a stage that has 3 positions with 5 shots each and 90s, you can do the math and know that with proper shooting, you can get 12 shots off.

    You focus intently on those 12 shots. You’ll be shocked how many people get 15 shots off and end up with an 8 or 9 and you get an 11 or 12 without finishing the stage.
     
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    The two that @Dthomas3523 mentioned are big.

    As mentioned above, target acquisition on the clock is a big issue as well. When I'm talking with our newer shooters up here at our local club matches , a lot of them mention having a hard time with quickly acquiring targets. I give them two pieces of advice.

    1) Back off the magnification. 15x is more than adequate.

    2) I usually expand on @lowlight mantra that says "find it with your eye and kill it with your scope". I suggest to our new guys during their prep time to find landmarks that are easy to reference. Something that is easy to pick out while your building a position or orientating your body when transitioning to a different target. Then when on the clock locate the landmark and the target. Once you locate the target, line the elevation turret up with the target and then drop your head into position behind the scope.

    It seems to help the new guys up here. It works for me up until now. Especially on stages with multiple targets and/or positions.
     
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    Good read, makes sense. I’m going to focus a few shooting sessions entirely on building positions and cracking off one shot. Having limited range back home makes 100-200 yards really the max I can get.
     
    RoterJager said:
    The two that @Dthomas3523 mentioned are big.

    As mentioned above, target acquisition on the clock is a big issue as well. When I'm talking with our newer shooters up here at our local club matches , a lot of them mention having a hard time with quickly acquiring targets. I give them two pieces of advice.

    1) Back off the magnification. 15x is more than adequate.

    2) I usually expand on @lowlight mantra that says "find it with your eye and kill it with your scope". I suggest to our new guys during their prep time to find landmarks that are easy to reference. Something that is easy to pick out while your building a position or orientating your body when transitioning to a different target. Then when on the clock locate the landmark and the target. Once you locate the target, line the elevation turret up with the target and then drop your head into position behind the scope.

    It seems to help the new guys up here. It works for me up until now. Especially on stages with multiple targets and/or positions.
    Click to expand...
    I noticed the other day that if I line up the scope level with my support side eye to the target my scope will be right on it. That helped with quick target acquisition.
     
    Great thread. As a new shooter to the sport one of the best things I have found is to spend a lot of time on the glass watching others shoot. The good shooters never look like they are in a hurry.
     
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    +1 on the thanks for this info. This is the kind of info/exchange that steered me to this forum over many others. Very high “ horn to bull” ratio. :)
     
    Quit giving away all the secrets.

    Seriously though, this is spot-on. Fundamentals aren’t flashy and some folks think 100 yard practice is silly, but there are huge gains to training this way.

    The only negative seems to be people don’t follow through to spot the shot or to call it. They just look at the paper.
     
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    lowlight said:
    One thing I would want people to consider practicing is getting into and out of their alternate positions under time. You want to move to a prop and work to get that first well-aimed shot off in about 10 to 15 seconds. I see a lot of people trying to practice props from a static position, versus practicing the movement to and from.
    Click to expand...

    This drill is one I absolutely hammer on when helping new shooters get ready for the grind. For most positions, my personal standard is two shots in 12 seconds, and I hold my AM to 15 seconds.
     
    @Dthomas3523 nailed it on the "structured practice" I have a personal range and I have to really get myself together to have structured practices, I catch myself just hanging out and whacking steel. Same thing as far as matches go, I catch myself daydreaming, and bull shitting. I've left a ton of points on the table by not staying sharp and going over my plan for a stage. Maybe I should make a checklist and carry it in my front pocket? Lol
     
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    Also there's been all the hoopla about building rimfire trainers, use them. Finding a place to practice with rimfire may be easier than for big guns. Maybe shoot some of the rimfire matches that are out there. No, the weight and recoil are not equal but you are under match conditions, timer, efficiency of motion, mental game, etc.
     
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    accurate obsession said:
    Also there's been all the hoopla about building rimfire trainers, use them. Finding a place to practice with rimfire may be easier than for big guns. Maybe shoot some of the rimfire matches that are out there. No, the weight and recoil are not equal but you are under match conditions, timer, efficiency of motion, mental game, etc.
    Click to expand...
    I agree completely, I lay off the 22 about a week before a match and switch to my 223 which is comparable to my comp rifle. Rifles are twins except the 223 doesn't wear a brake and weight is lighter. I find myself getting sloppy if I run the 22 for awhile.
     
    PAYDIRT said:
    I agree completely, I lay off the 22 about a week before a match and switch to my 223 which is comparable to my comp rifle. Rifles are twins except the 223 doesn't wear a brake and weight is lighter. I find myself getting sloppy if I run the 22 for awhile.
    Click to expand...

    Yep, that's a big thing I caution people about with 22 trainers - it's very easy to get sloppy on recoil management fundamentals with the 22s, which will bite you hard when you go back to CF.
     
    Hollywood 6mm said:
    Yep, that's a big thing I caution people about with 22 trainers - it's very easy to get sloppy on recoil management fundamentals with the 22s, which will bite you hard when you go back to CF.
    Click to expand...

    I like to break my training down. I use a mix of .308, 6mm, and .22lr.

    Totally agree with the recoil. For a while I shot probably four .22 matches back to back without centerfire. I found myself almost completely free recoiling after so much .22.

    I use .22 as a prime example of why spotting shots is almost the most important aspect of PRS type shooting. The distances with many .22 matches is of equal difficulty as centerfire. But many low/mid to low pack centerfire shooters are mid-mid/high pack shooters with their .22. Because they aren’t having to constantly ask “did anyone see where that went?”
     
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    For the target acquisition, the description I like is the same for shooting anything to prepare for a solid position. Locate landmark by the target, square your shoulders to your landmark, stab the rifle straight at your target while getting it to it's support and as you pull it back into you, look over your elevation turret to fine tune. When you drop your head onto the rifle, odds are your target will be in view. Break each movement into different sections to maximize efficiency.
     
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    Forward543 said:
    For the target acquisition, the description I like is the same for shooting anything to prepare for a solid position. Locate landmark by the target, square your shoulders to your landmark, stab the rifle straight at your target while getting it to it's support and as you pull it back into you, look over your elevation turret to fine tune. When you drop your head onto the rifle, odds are your target will be in view. Break each movement into different sections to maximize efficiency.
    Click to expand...

    That's almost word for word how I teach it.
     
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    So, how does one go from mid pack to lower half of the top pack?
     
    lts1ow said:
    So, how does one go from mid pack to lower half of the top pack?
    Click to expand...

    Practice the things here until you make enough impacts in matches to place that high.

    There’s no secret to this. You make good positions, pull trigger, watch your shot. Make correction if needed and keep shooting.

    If you can do that, you’ll place high. The issue is, people can’t do that and are worried about shit like wind. When they can’t build a position and hit a 1” dot at 100yds.
     
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    The info in this thread is golden. I will say the info is spot on. I am just getting to the point where I can get to the top few spots fairly often in regional level matches. I went from dry firing about 1 hr per week and shooting roughly 2500 rds/yr and placing mid pack or a little higher with a rare good finish to consistently placing well at regional level matches. I spent a ton of time dry firing with a structured regiment that works on specific things. I also bought a Lego rifle and switch between a 223 with no brake and a 6 for matches. When I was shooting my best, I was dry firing 30-60 minutes 5-6 days/week. I was also shooting 200 rds+/wk in practice, and spending 50-100 reps working on very specific things. All of this will help with FOM. If you have some distance to play with, shooting tiny steel targets will help with spotting misses and correcting to make hits.

    Recently, I have been very busy with work and have not had time to dryfire for the last 3-4 weeks. I have also not had an opportunity to practice much. This weekend I shot a match that highlighted the importance of the FOM. I had 4 really strong stages starting out and I was seeing every shot and making corrections to the center of the plate. Then for, whatever reason, I got in a hurry and stopped following through. There were a lot of 90 sec. stages with a lot of movement, and I was rushing. I was getting through stages with 15-20 seconds left, and I was missing a ton of shots that I don't normally miss. On the last stage of Saturday I realized that I had seen every shot that hit the target, and none of the shots that didn't. I was coming off the gun too fast and not following through. In my mind I was working the bolt before the shot even broke. Today I really concentrated on following through and it went better, but still not as good as it had been when I was practicing a lot. It really drove home the importance of the FOM and the need to have them be completed subconsciously to shoot really well.

    The guys that are consistently at the top have definitely put in a ton or work to get there and stay there.
     
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    OyVey said:
    Novice shooter here.

    Recently found out that my dope was off because I used the advertised BC on 140 ELDM's. I ended up having to true my dope to 1000 yards and I figured out that the actual BC was nowhere near the advertised BC for the ELDMs. Then I went down the BC rabbit hole and I'm now switching to Berger 144's LRHT. I read that they average the BC down to mach 1.5 or something like that unlike other manufacturer's who skew their numbers for marketing purposes.

    On a side note, I have trouble spotting my own shots when I miss. I shoot 6.5 Creedmoor and I'm mostly on around 8x magnification. When I miss, all I see is a bunch of dirt kick up and I cannot tell if I'm hitting left or right, or even high or low for that matter.
    Click to expand...

    interesting you bring that up bc I was in the same situation as a new competitor this year. I went to my home range and actually practiced range misses. intentionally missed all targets on berms and looked to see what the misses looked like. didnt take long to see what the cloud of dirt did in relation to direction of misses. sounds counterintuitive but the entire purpose of spotting your own shots is mid-stage corrections to regain points.

    basically. if there is wind and you know the direction then the cloud is easy to figure out. if there is no wind its still kinda easy bc if the cloud cluster is to the left or right of the target its self explanatory. now if the cloud rises and covers the plate you hit low and if the plate covers the cloud you hit high. keeping your mag down to 8 or a little less with help with watching your own trace. if your recoil is affecting your followup you need to lower your load or practice recoil management. either better positioning, weigh the rifle down more, add more brake, etc etc. watching my trace and analyzing the dust cloud, when combined, has saved me on stages from taking 0s... now when the MD puts the T post in fresh dirt, well shit. still working on that one
     
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    Let’s leave wind and dirt/dust out of this.

    Way more advanced than this thread is intended for. Also, watching direction of dirt cloud at target isn’t always a good idea as the distances we typically shoot, the wind at the last third of the flight path is the least important. Then comes terrain features.

    You’d had to hit low and short for dust to rise in front of the target. You can miss low and bullet lands behind target.....etc etc.

    What that all adds up to is shit the beginner/novice doesn’t need to be racking their brain over.
     
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    Let's be honest here and @Dthomas3523 is 100% right, getting into dust clouds and wind zones is getting into the weeds. New guys need to focus on:

    1) Having a good zero
    2) Having good, confirmed data to whatever range they have available.
    3) Building good positions in an efficient manner. Through both dry fire and 100yd dot drills.
    4) Accquiring targets quickly.
     
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    Forward543 said:
    For the target acquisition, the description I like is the same for shooting anything to prepare for a solid position. Locate landmark by the target, square your shoulders to your landmark, stab the rifle straight at your target while getting it to it's support and as you pull it back into you, look over your elevation turret to fine tune. When you drop your head onto the rifle, odds are your target will be in view. Break each movement into different sections to maximize efficiency.
    Click to expand...

    that's awesome info.. early on I had a terrible time getting glass onto target... took forever. took a long time to reprogram my brain to understand max zoom is not your friend. lately I find myself for anything 600 or closer in the 8 range. has helped tremendously
     
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    RoterJager said:
    Let's be honest here and @Dthomas3523 is 100% right, getting into dust clouds and wind zones is getting into the weeds. New guys need to focus on:

    1) Having a good zero
    2) Having good, confirmed data to whatever range they have available.
    3) Building good positions in an efficient manner. Through both dry fire and 100yd dot drills.
    4) Accquiring targets quickly.
    Click to expand...

    only thing i would add is 5) Safety
     
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    I shoot with DThomas regularly. He’s a hitter and always helpful in person, on the internet and to new folks in particular, need more like him, those like him are why I stuck around long enough to pass through the novice level.

    Dry firing can iron out all of this but the DOPE, finding targets, dialing and not getting lost.
    It just takes forethought your come up with training ideas based on the set up you have my DFAT has proved invaluable and building a few props was a fun project I’ve gotten far more use out of than my wife expected.

    I really like make and break drills dry fire, .22, center fire to make positions fast and hits count. I will incorporate a lot more movement into training that way and not only never get bored and get faster than needed so I can shoot slow on stages. I don’t do as much multi target work as I should but that’s not as much of a thing at the matches i shoot.

    Everyone can learn from this. Maybe we should start a thread of stage training ideas for live or dry fire?
     
    Dthomas3523 said:
    Practice the things here until you make enough impacts in matches to place that high.

    There’s no secret to this. You make good positions, pull trigger, watch your shot. Make correction if needed and keep shooting.

    If you can do that, you’ll place high. The issue is, people can’t do that and are worried about shit like wind. When they can’t build a position and hit a 1” dot at 100yds.
    Click to expand...
    I'm pretty lucky in that I can shoot at home or multiple pieces of private land within 5 min of home to 1000 yds any day. I still find more value in shooting positional at close range.

    The original post is spot on!
     
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    Rifle Competition Events Steel City Precision Rifleman's Challenge, 9/2/23, Vance, AL.
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    Steelcityprecision
    Steelcityprecision
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