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Load development on virgin brass - never again

Sheldon N

Sheldon N

Blind Squirrel Finds a Nut
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 24, 2014
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3,901
Pacific Northwest
Not ever going to mess around with load development on virgin brass again. Had 100 new cases of 7 SAUM to work through, spent some of it working up a load and some of it truing drop data in preparation for the PRS ELR match. Had it dialed in and ready to go, great accuracy, solid out at distance. Sized the brass, annealed, trimmed, prepped... perfect brass.

T-minus 5 days to the match and I do a quick range trip to check zero and do a final chrono on the 1x fired brass. It's garbage... terrible accuracy, 30 fps faster than before, and a hint of bolt lift effort, more than I'd feel comfortable with. Panic sets in...

3 range trips later I get it fixed, had to drop powder charge almost a full grain to get back in the node, and now it's working again. All my prior load info was pretty much junk. The node with virgin brass was 10 fps slower than with 1x fired brass and the powder charge to velocity curve was nowhere near the same between virgin and 1x fired. It was pretty much like starting over with load development. On the plus side the new load HAMMERS, even better than it did on virgin brass.

Anyhow, just venting. Next time someone wants to gripe about how they won't shoot an ackley case or something that requires fire forming, I'll argue that they all require fire forming. :)
 
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You should know better man!!! lolol

I put ALL virgin brass through my rifle before doing any load development for this very reason! This is also why a lot of people say virgin brass is better than 1x or 2x and so on. Because they did load development with virgin brass than loaded up their new load into 1x and it shoots like shit....
 
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I know, I know! I should know better. For some reason I thought I'd at least have some useful data from the first firing.
 
Thanks for bringing this topic up as its something I've struggled with myself. So then how do you guys balance how much brass you buy/fireform for a particular barrel before you consider yourself set as far as brass supply? I mean 100 pcs of virgin Lapua brass would be pretty easy to get through to fireform and get ready for load development but if you're like me and have the mindset of more is better, what do you do with say 300 pcs of virgin Lapua brass?

I'm currently working on a custom build (6.5CM like all the other cool kids) with a Proof CF barrel so I worry about shortening barrel life unnecessarily.
 
Dutch260 said:
Thanks for bringing this topic up as its something I've struggled with myself. So then how do you guys balance how much brass you buy/fireform for a particular barrel before you consider yourself set as far as brass supply? I mean 100 pcs of virgin Lapua brass would be pretty easy to get through to fireform and get ready for load development but if you're like me and have the mindset of more is better, what do you do with say 300 pcs of virgin Lapua brass?

I'm currently working on a custom build (6.5CM like all the other cool kids) with a Proof CF barrel so I worry about shortening barrel life unnecessarily.
Click to expand...

I would shoot 100pcs of virgin brass to fireform and break in your new barrel. I would never start load development on a barrel with less than 100rds down it or with virgin brass anyway.

After you find your load with that 100pcs of 1x I would then use that load with the 200-300pcs of Virgin you have left to bang steel/practice with. It will be close, just wont be your BEST load. You now have 300/400pcs of fired brass to work with.
 
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I like getting 200 new pieces of brass and using those as the first 200 rounds down the barrel. Then you've got formed brass and a barrel that's fully broken in and sped up so you're good to start load development on it. I'll go to 300 pieces of brass if it's a caliber that I'm shooting 2 day matches with.

This barrel was one I picked up with already 400 rounds down it, but only 100 pieces of brass. That's how I ended up fireforming and thinking i could try load development.
 
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@padom - I like your approach and that makes a lot of sense. I guess you could also use that virgin brass for foulers or even cold bore shots if you wanted. In your experience with all the barrel testing you have been doing and just in past experience itself, have you noticed any changes in performance of the "load" you settled on during load development as you start approaching the 200 or 300 round count for a new barrel?

I would imagine that by the time you settle on an accurate load you've got say 150 rds through a new barrel. 100 fireforming and then maybe another 50 give or take depending on which load development sorcery you perform. I am curious if that accurate "load" stays accurate and consistent as you continue to put that next 100 or so rounds down a new barrel? I'm sure it different for every barrel but I was wondering if you've had a particular barrel continue to speed up after your load development and then have to adjust your found load to accommodate for that.
 
I put 50rds down a new barrel then clean. I put another 50rds down the barrel and clean. I now have 100rds down the barrel. I will then shoot 25 or so rounds down the barrel to foul it then do load development. So the load I found after that initial 125rds does not change. Now, I do a quick test up and down in .1g increments from my load anytime I change powder lots to confirm but its usually no change. So if my load is 42.2g H4350, i will test 42.0, 42.1, 42.2, 42.3 and 42.4 with a new lot of powder to confirm my load is still in the center of the node with the new lot.

Example

Here is a target testing the 10rds I had left loaded up of the current lot of H4350 I had just ran out of. Here is the new lot testing. You can see here 41.8g was still the best load with the new lot.

EgKH2pO.jpg


Distance confirmation at 328yds

Cp3F0Uh.jpg
 
Thanks @padom for sharing the methods to your madness and to you as well @Sheldon N . Always looking to learn from others experiences/mistakes. Now if McMillan will just light a fire under what must be a little old lonely man in the back hand carving their stocks I can get mine and then put some of this knowledge to practice!

Thanks again gents!
 
Pardon and Sheldon thanks for the advice and a timely reminder. Just picked up 200 of new brass, it’s been a while since I had virgin cases and I would most likely gone done the same route as Sheldon. Thanks heaps I have a comp in 7 days so a little bit more work to do?
 
Good reminder Sheldon. (y)

Padom, sheer coincidence, but my current most consistent load also happens to be 41.8g H4350, for my .260. It's not the fastest load, but it's not slow either and it is solid. That's what matters to me most these days.
 
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lash said:
Good reminder Sheldon. (y)

Padom, sheer coincidence, but my current most consistent load also happens to be 41.8g H4350, for my .260. It's not the fastest load, but it's not slow either and it is solid. That's what matters to me most these days.
Click to expand...

Yep, 2811 SD 7. Accuracy over speed any day
 
jpgolffl said:
Damn good shootin. Make sure when you snap pics for target software to line up the edges of the paper with the edges of the camera. At least two edges anyway so you know that you are square and there will be no 3d perspective in the image as it can skew the target numbers, especially when using something as small as a quarter for reference. Notice in your first pic the quarter isn't quite round. I don't use on target but the one I use allows you to measure anything on the pic for size reference. The bigger the measurement the less effect it will have if you are off just a bit so I usually measure all of the way across the target. It doesn't make a huge difference but as we are splitting hairs we may as well split them all of the way lol. Getting my creedmoor dialed in to try to knock you off top spot on the SH challenge by the way!!
Click to expand...


Ready and waiting...lol
 
Sheldon N said:
Not ever going to mess around with load development on virgin brass again. Had 100 new cases of 7 SAUM to work through, spent some of it working up a load and some of it truing drop data in preparation for the PRS ELR match. Had it dialed in and ready to go, great accuracy, solid out at distance. Sized the brass, annealed, trimmed, prepped... perfect brass.

T-minus 5 days to the match and I do a quick range trip to check zero and do a final chrono on the 1x fired brass. It's garbage... terrible accuracy, 30 fps faster than before, and a hint of bolt lift effort, more than I'd feel comfortable with. Panic sets in...

3 range trips later I get it fixed, had to drop powder charge almost a full grain to get back in the node, and now it's working again. All my prior load info was pretty much junk. The node with virgin brass was 10 fps slower than with 1x fired brass and the powder charge to velocity curve was nowhere near the same between virgin and 1x fired. It was pretty much like starting over with load development. On the plus side the new load HAMMERS, even better than it did on virgin brass.

Anyhow, just venting. Next time someone wants to gripe about how they won't shoot an ackley case or something that requires fire forming, I'll argue that they all require fire forming. :)
Click to expand...

Just a question on why the fire formed brass had more pressure.

Are you guessing neck tension, smaller after resizing??
 
Diver160651 said:
Just a question on why the fire formed brass had more pressure.

Are you guessing neck tension, smaller after resizing??
Click to expand...

I think there was a bit more neck tension in the fired brass. Only other theory might be pressure curve. Less energy spent on expanding the brass, builds pressure more quickly while the bullet is still in the throat.
 
Sheldon N said:
I think there was a bit more neck tension in the fired brass. Only other theory might be pressure curve. Less energy spent on expanding the brass, builds pressure more quickly while the bullet is still in the throat.
Click to expand...
That’s kinda my guess.. usually I can see the difference on an arbor press with pressure gauge for seating pressure.
 
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I would think it has to do with how much the brass needs to expand to fire form. There is very little expansion when fire forming Lapua brass in my chamber and the load is the same for virgin brass. Not much energy used expanding brass so it is consistent on the next firings.
 
jpgolffl said:
I would think it has to do with how much the brass needs to expand to fire form. There is very little expansion when fire forming Lapua brass in my chamber and the load is the same for virgin brass. Not much energy used expanding brass so it is consistent on the next firings.
Click to expand...
I asked only because, with my Norma or Lapua in my chambers, I do NOT see much difference, UNLESS, I over bump, use the wrong neck bushing or use a standard resizing die. As an example, If I have 40lbs seating pressure with new brass and then take the wrong bushing or a standard sizing die I often end up with swings over 100lbs and that makes the loads have more ES and can go from hot, to too hot with ejector marks etc..
 
Diver160651 said:
I asked only because, with my Norma or Lapua in my chambers, I do NOT see much difference, UNLESS, I over bump, use the wrong neck bushing or use a standard resizing die. As an example, If I have 40lbs seating pressure with new brass and then take the wrong bushing or a standard sizing die I often end up with swings over 100lbs and that makes the loads have more ES and can go from hot, to too hot with ejector marks etc..
Click to expand...
Yea without a bunch of testing it would be hard to know for sure why it is. My virgin brass typically takes more pressure to seat than my neck-sized and the numbers and groups are about the same. I don't have a measurement of how much more seating pressure it takes just gong off of feel.
 
What's the advice if you buy 400pcs minimum for a new chamber? 400 is a conservative number for a lot of shooters,
 
Milo 2.5 said:
What's the advice if you buy 400pcs minimum for a new chamber? 400 is a conservative number for a lot of shooters,
Click to expand...

Good question- my 2 cents and key for chambers were I expect less than 1500 -

For me, I sort, prep, and load develop the new brass. But knowing the seating pressure is absolutely a must. I also always use the center charge weight in the OCW.

If I skip the measuring and sorting by neck pressure, 2 things get screwed; the original OCW test and the reloads as the various neck tensions can override the charge weights.

For me if I am trying to keep SDs way down NT is the single biggest variable and hardest to fight. An Arbor Is one of best way we currently have to manage this.

FWIW, 2 of us loaded and tracked seating pressure on every case in 223, 6, 6.5, 7, 308, 300, 338s over hundreds of each. It appears the smaller the case/powder charge the finner you must keep the NT windows. We had everything in Excel at one point but no idea what became of it. I must also say that some types of calibers like the 6Br seemed to always be easier to manage consistent NT. There are a lot of strategies from neck turning, leaving carbon in the necks to annealing every time.
 
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Diver160651 said:
Good question- my 2 cents and key for chambers were I expect less than 1500 -

For me, I sort, prep, and load devrlop. But knowing the seating pressure is absolutely a must. I also always use the center charge weight in the OCW.

If I skip the mowing and sorting by neck pressure 2 things get screwed; the original OCW test and the reloads as the various neck tensions can override the charge weights.

For me if I am trying to keep SDs way down NT is the single biggest variable and hardest to fight. An Arbor Is one of best way we currently have to manage this.
Click to expand...
I was asking strictly on not doing load dev till all brass is supposedly fireformed. I understand the significance of neck tensions.
 
Milo 2.5 said:
I was asking strictly on not doing load dev till all brass is supposedly fireformed. I understand the significance of neck tensions.
Click to expand...

I know- I was saying I manage the new cases and load them because some chamberings do not have enough life in them to do otherwise.

But I never load directily out of the box.. without some prep and sorting for my baseline
 
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Diver160651 said:
I know- I was saying I manage the new cases and load them because some chamberings do not have enough life in them to do otherwise
Click to expand...
OK, I got it, I do the same. There's a trend for load dev under 40 rds today, a simple barrel speedup can wreck a load. I f your load changes with fired brass, usually it just means pulling some powder.
 
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Sheldon N said:
Not ever going to mess around with load development on virgin brass again. Had 100 new cases of 7 SAUM to work through, spent some of it working up a load and some of it truing drop data in preparation for the PRS ELR match. Had it dialed in and ready to go, great accuracy, solid out at distance. Sized the brass, annealed, trimmed, prepped... perfect brass.

T-minus 5 days to the match and I do a quick range trip to check zero and do a final chrono on the 1x fired brass. It's garbage... terrible accuracy, 30 fps faster than before, and a hint of bolt lift effort, more than I'd feel comfortable with. Panic sets in...

3 range trips later I get it fixed, had to drop powder charge almost a full grain to get back in the node, and now it's working again. All my prior load info was pretty much junk. The node with virgin brass was 10 fps slower than with 1x fired brass and the powder charge to velocity curve was nowhere near the same between virgin and 1x fired. It was pretty much like starting over with load development. On the plus side the new load HAMMERS, even better than it did on virgin brass.

Anyhow, just venting. Next time someone wants to gripe about how they won't shoot an ackley case or something that requires fire forming, I'll argue that they all require fire forming. :)
Click to expand...

Yep, learning the hard way... Don't feel alone.
 
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Not sure this helps anyone, but I can post up MTM case inserts if anyone what’s to print them for their ammo boxes. Printed out they make it easy to track each cell in your MTM case.

This works great for load development, but also for long range loads that must land at least vertically we’re you expect.

Here is a quick example - of how I use them for daily sorting of seating pressure. Not that this same brass un manged will range from 20lbs to well over 120lbs and that swing is almost impossible to feel in a press like a rock chucker.
FAB1A869-7215-48F6-9EF3-FBE7101916F0.jpeg

D2EE1288-B10F-4FEE-A23B-86B42DF980CF.jpeg

I track the annealing to keep these particular loads around 65 lbs give it take 5 and then use the outliers for whatever.

For match positional I am not as worried, just cull the wild ones and store light to firm
 
Diver160651 said:
Not sure this helps anyone, but I can post up MTM case inserts if anyone what’s to print them for their ammo boxes. Printed out they make it easy to track each cell in your MTM case.

This works great for load development, but also for long range loads that must land at least vertically we’re you expect.

Here is a quick example - of how I use them for daily sorting of seating pressure. Not that this same brass un manged will range from 20lbs to well over 120lbs and that swing is almost impossible to feel in a press like a rock chucker.
View attachment 6882062
View attachment 6882063
I track the annealing to keep these particular loads around 65 lbs give it take 5 and then use the outliers for whatever.

For match positional I am not as worried, just cull the wild ones and store light to firm
Click to expand...

While I dont use an arbor I do the same thing somewhat. When seating Ill set the easy ones on one end of the block and tough ones on the opposite. Sure its not in any way exacting like yours and it gets a bit messy towards the middle but I figure its smooths out some of the discrepancy and its no extra work other than paying the slightest bit of attention.
 
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It all helps :)
spife7980 said:
While I dont use an arbor I do the same thing somewhat. When seating Ill set the easy ones on one end of the block and tough ones on the opposite. Sure its not in any way exacting like yours and it gets a bit messy towards the middle but I figure its smooths out some of the discrepancy and its no extra work other than paying the slightest bit of attention.
Click to expand...
 
I have always load dev with virgin brass mostly as a practical expedient (I also hate load dev). It has more or less been OK. I even shot a match last year with virgin brass but I did run a mandrel through the necks first.

With my new gun (6Br) I am going to try something different. Do you just recommend a moderate charge and just have at it until it is all 1f?

From my readings on the interwebs it sounds like 30gr of Varget under a 105hybrid is going to be the ticket.

Thanks for any info.
 
if it's a new caliber to you then yes a moderate load to fireform.. if it's a caliber you've been shooting then new brass just gets loaded with my go to load and I use those virgin brass loads for practice at the range.
 
I have a question for you guys I already have my load for my 260, my brass its getting a little loose in the primers, I just got a new lot of Lapua brass for it. do I say with my same load or do I go down in charge? The rifle has a match chamber and my brass that I used before was always full length sized
 
I've eaten it too. Thanks for the reminder. I just got in the new ADG 7mm RemMag brass. Nice gear, but I'll definitely be doing to do just a mild load for first firing.
 
aauya said:
I have a question for you guys I already have my load for my 260, my brass its getting a little loose in the primers, I just got a new lot of Lapua brass for it. do I say with my same load or do I go down in charge? The rifle has a match chamber and my brass that I used before was always full length sized
Click to expand...
Was your previous load developed for Lapua brass? How many firings did you get on the previous brass? Signs of pressure in your load?

Edit to clarify why I asked these questions:
If your load is the same and you are not changing anything in your formula; brass brand, powder, primer, full length sizing, etc; then you are normally fine to just full length size the new brass and have at it. The caveat in this has to do with hot loads.

I know a guy who loads everything he does to max hot loads. For him, flattened printers, popped primers, and other signs of pressure are his every day formula. He runs everything on the ragged edge (and I personally stay as far away from him while he’s shooting as is possible). For him, I would absolutely recommend a drop down before breaking in the new brass.

If you are not one of those and are shooting a safe in all conditions load, then have at it. You shouldn’t have any trouble. If you are changing brass brands or shoot a hot load, I’d back it down a node and verify your load first.
 
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Sheldon N said:
Next time someone wants to gripe about how they won't shoot an ackley case or something that requires fire forming, I'll argue that they all require fire forming. :)
Click to expand...

I shoot a 6 comp match. Every time someone mentions fireforming. I say this same thing.

I’m absolutely amazed at the number of sub 1/2 MOA rifles on the internet that function much differently than the 1/2 MOA rifles I have.
 
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I hate buying NEW brass!
I was fortunate enough to get 600 1x fired RP 243 brass the other day for $9.
This will be for my 260.
If all goes well I will be able to resize it to fit my chamber - .002".

Same thing with 1x fired LC brass in 7.62 and 5.56.
Everyone fire forms.
But sometimes it can by less painful ?
 
jakelly said:
I shoot a 6 comp match. Every time someone mentions fireforming. I say this same thing.

I’m absolutely amazed at the number of sub 1/2 MOA rifles on the internet that function much differently than the 1/2 MOA rifles I have.
Click to expand...
But doesn't it take a few firings of a wildcat to fully form?
 
Depends on the wildcat and the chamber.

Matthew Stewart set my comp match chamber for a crush fit of .003” on new Lapua brass. I clean up the necks (optional), fire once, ream the neck, size, lube with graphite, and load. They function like every other piece of brass.
 
Alpine 338 said:
@Sheldon N just curious which brass, bullet, and powder you’re using?
Click to expand...

This is an old thread from a year ago that got resurrected. At the time I was using Norma Brass, RL-26 powder, Berger 195 EOL Hybrid, 210M primer. Have since switched to 180 ELD-M but honestly am not shooting the 7SAUM that much lately.
 
Ok, thanks. The only reason I ask, I also shoot a 7 SAUM, and purchased 1200 pieces of Norma brass, and have been going through it over the years. Have a lights out load with virgin brass. I guess I need to resize and shoot it to see if I will have the same experience you did.
 
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I started load development with virgin brass AND a new barrel. LOL. To be honest, it went OK but I have tweaked my load since then.. The shitty deal is I have almost 10 firings on my brass now so I guess it's time to buy some more virgin brass, at least my barrel won't be new this time.
 
So . . . I have 500 rounds of virgin brass, and, being new to this, I have what some of you may say is a stupid question. I want to shoot and not just practice.

Can I load it with a standard load, same powder in each one, and hope to match just Match factory ammo and then do load development later?

The Match ammo I shot was accurate enough for what I want to do right now. I competed with boxed factory ammunition previously. Obviously buying a box of Match ammo off the shelf has no load development done to it for my rifle.

Can I expect to match that level of precision with no load development, so I can at least enjoy doing this fire-forming part? Or do I need to skip my next match while I expend rounds just practicing to do fire-forming?

Somebody above wrote that their precision "sucked" shooting from virgin brass, but "sucked" is a relative term. He might have meant the precision was like off the shelf ammunition, or he might have meant he had 2.5" groups at 100 yards.

Somebody please give me a courteous answer that takes into account I am new to this and truly curious, not posting to troll or prove a point.
 
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