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My thoughts on loading equipment

Bull81

Lost Cause
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 13, 2017
341
33
Mississippi
We spend tens of thousands of dollars on custom rifles/optics chasing accuracy. We spend thousands of hours looking for that magical load to go along with those custom guns. But when it comes to quality reloading equipment that saves us time and give us exacting results every time we want to turn our noses up at it and say that’s to much money for a powder measure or priming tool. I’ve been into long range precision shooting since I was a kid, and I’ve been reloading since I was a late teenager. It’s really a snowball affect once you get serious about. The factory ammo doesn’t preform like you need at distance, and reloading while easy in theory is actually a skill set in its own when it comes to producing quality ammo tuned specifically for a given rifle consistently. I use to dread getting ready for a match and spending hours prepping brass, seating primers, and weight out each powder charge accurately. I have two young children, a job, and a wife that believe it or not likes me around so I don’t really have a lot of spare time to dedicate to reloading. I’ve wasted plenty of money searching for faster ways of doing things while still maintaining a high level of accuracy. To date there are 4 main pieces of loading equipment I own that fit that bill and I can’t see how I ever got by without.





  1. Was the Giraud trimmer, before that I used various different trimmers but none of them really suited my needs. Either they were way to slow, they were not very accurate, or worse slow and inaccurate. The Giraud accomplish both speed and accuracy. I can now trim, chamfer, and deburr 300 pieces of brass in about 45 minutes vs 3 or 4 hours.




  1. Was a Forester Co-ax press. While it’s not really any faster than other single stage presses it produces extremely consistent ammo every time, and I love the ease of changing dies out and the way it catches the spent primers.




  1. Is the Primal Rights CPS primer. I use to prime with a hand primer, and while it was accurate and pretty consistent, it wasn’t all that fast and I’d have to stop a few times to let my hand rest. When I first saw the CPS I was extremely skeptical that something as simple as a priming tool would be worth that much investment. I finally decided to give one a try and boy was I wrong. I don’t see how I ever got by without the CPS, it’s incredibly fast, laser accurate, and dead nuts repeatable. How they were able to get that amount of feel coupled with the massive amount of leverage is still a mystery to me. The .001 adjustments make seating the primers to the proper depth very easy and repeatable.
  2. Was the Promentheus powder dispenser. This is another one I was extremely skeptical about at first. I tried all sorts of different powder dispensers from manual throwers to high end electronic scales and wasn’t ever fully satisfied with any of them. Aside from the manual throwers and cheap electronic scales my first attempt was a RCBS Chargemaster. The chargemaster was a huge disappointment, it was slower than manually throwing a light charge and the trickling up, and not as accurate. My next attempt was a Satorious E64. I used the satorious for a year or so with a Danny trickler. This produced very consistent powder charges but was slow and tedious. Then along came the auto throw, with the auto throw I was able to really save a lot of time while still maintaining accuracy. I could charge 100 cases in about an hour, problem was the satorious was extremely sensitive to pretty much everything and would bounce all over the place if someone walked by it, sometimes no matter what I tried it just didn’t want to function properly. After a few years I finally decided to try the Promentheus. Once again I don’t see how I managed to get by without it. It’s level of accuracy and repeatability is amazing. It never drifts, isn’t sensitive to vibration, weather, temperature, slight changes in voltage, or anything for that matter. It takes virtually no concentration to operate, and I can now load 100 perfectly charged rounds in about 30 minutes included seating the bullets. I use several different powders so I have the standard trickler a long with the vibratory trickler. Both work extremely well and rarely every produce a heavy charge. If a heavy charges is thrown it’s only off by a single kernel. Truly an amazing machine that not only produces extremely consistent ammo it drastically increased my confidence in my reloads, which is a huge benefit it it’s self.




It use to take me all week to get ready for a match, now I literally load all my ammo for a match the night before in roughly an hour once the kids have gone to bed and I’m done.


Every item I listed is expensive compared to other pieces of equipment that do the same given job. What you get for that additional cost is a better product that saves you huge amounts of time, and produces better more consistent ammo every time.


Is it worth the additional cost? Well... that’s up to you and what you expect to get out of your time at the loading bench. The way I see it is if I am gonna spend thousands of dollars on a rifle and optics, another thousand on travel, hotel, and match fees, then I don’t want to have to worry about my ammo or spend countless hours at the loading bench. I’d much rather spend that time with my family or actually doing what anyone actually reading this loves to do... shooting!
 
Agreed, the time savings and quality is easily justifiable for me now that I’ve experienced the giraud and autothrow.
 
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I'm not about to say buying premium equipment is a waste, I spend plenty myself.
Give us a measurement of the success that the upgrades have brought to the table.
 
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Same as hunters buying a $1000 rifle and putting an $80 Tasco scope on it.
You get what you pay for is the rule. There can be some surprises along the way, but they're the exception.
 
I'm not about to say buying premium equipment is a waste, I spend plenty myself.
Give us a measurement of the success that the upgrades have brought to the table.
You can be equally successful with way less I agree. I’ve been down that road. The biggest improvement to me is the time savings that these pieces of equipment bring to the table while still maintaining a high level of consistency. Can you throw a perfectly weighted charge of powder with a $200 tune balance beam scale and a hand trickler? Absolutely, but it will take you 3 or 4 hours to do so. Same goes for trimming cases, a Wilson trimmer is very affective and consistent but it’s incredibly slow. Is having these pieces of equipment going to turn the average shooter into a world class shooter... absolutely not and that was not what my point was. Same goes for rifles and optics.
 
You can be equally successful with way less I agree. I’ve been down that road. The biggest improvement to me is the time savings that these pieces of equipment bring to the table while still maintaining a high level of consistency. Can you throw a perfectly weighted charge of powder with a $200 tune balance beam scale and a hand trickler? Absolutely, but it will take you 3 or 4 hours to do so. Same goes for trimming cases, a Wilson trimmer is very affective and consistent but it’s incredibly slow. Is having these pieces of equipment going to turn the average shooter into a world class shooter... absolutely not and that was not what my point was. Same goes for rifles and optics.

I used the Wilson trimmer for a long time before ponying up for the giraud. Best money spent for reloading. When I was shooting 150 to 200 rounds a week I spent all week trickling onto a beam scale. I have two chargemasters to speed shit up. I want a CPS primer because I think my hands are getting arthritis and a hand primer kills me now.
 
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I'm not about to say buying premium equipment is a waste, I spend plenty myself.
Give us a measurement of the success that the upgrades have brought to the table.
I use to spend all week loading, one operation a night Sunday through Thursday. A couple hours trimming brass, a couple powdering cases. Now I’m usually done by Sunday, Monday night if I’m going super leisurely. It’s so much faster and less intensive letting the machines be accurate. Used to spend like two minutes a case trimming, chamfering, deburring. Not I can run through 100 in under 10 minutes. Used to spend two-three hours powdering with a beam, now it’s theres waiting for me to pour it in a case when I’m ready with no interaction from me.

I traded time and effort for money, it’s all just as accurate but now it’s easy.
 
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You can be equally successful with way less I agree. I’ve been down that road. The biggest improvement to me is the time savings that these pieces of equipment bring to the table while still maintaining a high level of consistency. Can you throw a perfectly weighted charge of powder with a $200 tune balance beam scale and a hand trickler? Absolutely, but it will take you 3 or 4 hours to do so. Same goes for trimming cases, a Wilson trimmer is very affective and consistent but it’s incredibly slow. Is having these pieces of equipment going to turn the average shooter into a world class shooter... absolutely not and that was not what my point was. Same goes for rifles and optics.
Yes, I fully took your post out of context.
 
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You can be equally successful with way less I agree. I’ve been down that road. The biggest improvement to me is the time savings that these pieces of equipment bring to the table while still maintaining a high level of consistency. Can you throw a perfectly weighted charge of powder with a $200 tune balance beam scale and a hand trickler? Absolutely, but it will take you 3 or 4 hours to do so. Same goes for trimming cases, a Wilson trimmer is very affective and consistent but it’s incredibly slow. Is having these pieces of equipment going to turn the average shooter into a world class shooter... absolutely not and that was not what my point was. Same goes for rifles and optics.


Very well said Bull!!

I started with all manual tools and slowly started upgrading and now use most all of the high end tools you mentioned and like you it was not about making a better shooter or load...it was about time spent at the bench.
 
I agree, but the auto throw/trickler on my fx-120i isn't drifting at all the way I have it set up. It's on a separate very sturdy shelf slightly above my bench so nothing on the bench will effect it. It's even got conduit with electric wires running right behind it which has no effect. I run 3 of the draft shields, only the right one is out and HVAC on or off doesn't effect it. As long as I keep my cell phone at least 5 feet from it there's no problems. I do agree about the basic idea of ultra accurate order charges though.

The accurate powder charges, sizing and seating on a co-ax, and trimming on a Giraud getting perfect neck length has played a huge role in making ultra consistent ammo. I've bought a few other items that have made a big difference too though. One being the Sinclair neck mandrels and die, since using these my neck tension has been as close to perfect as it gets. I also believe in good measuring equipment and IMO the Hornady OAL tool, bullet comparator, headspace gauges (I actually prefer the sinclair inserts more), and a high quality set of calipers (Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharpe) are essential pieces to precision reloading. I also greatly value my sinclair runout gauge with upgraded Mitutoyo indicator, it's helped me diagnose a couple anomalies as well as iron out my sizing and seating techniques to minimize runout.

You can make due with some simple equipment, but if you're looking for ultimate accuracy and/or want to save yourself some time then you've gotta drop some cash.
 
I HATE trimming brass. I started with RCBS Trimp Pro hand crank. Then chucked it to a power drill. Then Frankford Arsenal brass prep center. Now I use several Little Crow WFTs. Tell me more about why I should buy a Giraud. I'm sure it's great for 223 to 300WM, but how well does it work for 300BLK?
 
I just watched a video on the Prometheus. Listening to this guy I wanted to snap my iPad in half. It looks like an overly complicated scale and I’m sure with some revisions it could be so much better. I’m not bashing it at all, it just seems so complicated when compared to some of the other really accurate setups. But then again I’ve never used it.
 
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I agree, but the auto throw/trickler on my fx-120i isn't drifting at all the way I have it set up. It's on a separate very sturdy shelf slightly above my bench so nothing on the bench will effect it. It's even got conduit with electric wires running right behind it which has no effect. I run 3 of the draft shields, only the right one is out and HVAC on or off doesn't effect it. As long as I keep my cell phone at least 5 feet from it there's no problems. I do agree about the basic idea of ultra accurate order charges though.

The accurate powder charges, sizing and seating on a co-ax, and trimming on a Giraud getting perfect neck length has played a huge role in making ultra consistent ammo. I've bought a few other items that have made a big difference too though. One being the Sinclair neck mandrels and die, since using these my neck tension has been as close to perfect as it gets. I also believe in good measuring equipment and IMO the Hornady OAL tool, bullet comparator, headspace gauges (I actually prefer the sinclair inserts more), and a high quality set of calipers (Mitutoyo, Brown and Sharpe) are essential pieces to precision reloading. I also greatly value my sinclair runout gauge with upgraded Mitutoyo indicator, it's helped me diagnose a couple anomalies as well as iron out my sizing and seating techniques to minimize runout.

You can make due with some simple equipment, but if you're looking for ultimate accuracy and/or want to save yourself some time then you've gotta drop some cash.
Yes I have several friends that have the Fx120 set with the auto trickler and auto throw set up. They are very happy with it as well. Problem I had with the satorious was mainly due to where my loading bench is set up. I first started in the attic and had it suspended from the rafters by a platform and that worked pretty good unless we had high winds which would cause vibrations in the rafters. I then moved into the upstairs portion of my house and wasn’t able to suspend it like in the attic, this is where it really became and issue for me cause if I shifted my weight it would bounce around or if my dog or one of the kids came up the stairs it would throw it off. That’s when I finally decided to get away from the electronic scales. If I were down stairs on the concrete floor it probably would have never been an issue for me.
 
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I HATE trimming brass. I started with RCBS Trimp Pro hand crank. Then chucked it to a power drill. Then Frankford Arsenal brass prep center. Now I use several Little Crow WFTs. Tell me more about why I should buy a Giraud. I'm sure it's great for 223 to 300WM, but how well does it work for 300BLK?

I have never used the Giraud on a 300blk so I can’t really say. I use it on cartridges that I shoot in high volume, 6.5x47, 6br, 223, and 6.5 creedmoor. For the rounds I use just for hunting and only shoot 100 or so of a year I still use the Wilson trimmer. The Giraud excels at speed and precision so if you shoot high volumes of 300blk then it’s most likely going to be a big improvement for you over what your using now. If you only shoot a few hundred a year than it’s probably not worth the extra cost. In the end it’s all about saving time while still maintaining consistent results.
 
I just watched a video on the Prometheus. Listening to this guy I wanted to snap my iPad in half. It looks like an overly complicated scale and I’m sure with some revisions it could be so much better. I’m not bashing it at all, it just seems so complicated when compared to some of the other really accurate setups. But then again I’ve never used it.

I’ve seen the same video and while the video is very informative it does make the set up seem complicated. When I received my Promentheus it literally took me 30 minutes to un box it set it up and start throwing charges. It’s really a very simple machine to set up a operate. Takes about 10 seconds to change charge weights and can be fined tuned as you load to speed it up. By the time I dump the weighted charge and seat a bullet it’s waiting on me with another weighted charge 90% of the time.
 
I'm with you on the Prometheus and Giraud, both are sweet. For me personally the Dillon 550 makes the list as one of the biggest time savers. Takes 8 minutes to deprime, size, expander mandrel 100 pieces of match brass. And only 30 minutes to prime, powder charge (Prometheus feeding a funnel), and bullet seat 100 cases for match loads. Then swap out a toolhead and it can crank out 223 practice ammo super fast. Honestly the Dillon is the piece of reloading gear that has saved me the most time overall.
 
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The giraud works just fine for 300 bo, why wouldn’t it?

300 BLK is really short, and inserts almost fully into the Frankford Arsenal trimmer (nothing sticking out to hang on to). Wondering if the "pocket" into which you insert the case is shallow enough to trim a short cartridge case like 300 BLK.
 
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300 BLK is really short, and inserts almost fully into the Frankford Arsenal trimmer (nothing sticking out to hang on to). Wondering if the "pocket" into which you insert the case is shallow enough to trim a short cartridge case like 300 BLK.
A 6br is very short as well and I don’t have any issue trimming it on the Giraud, I’m sure the BLK would work just as well.
 
300 BLK is really short, and inserts almost fully into the Frankford Arsenal trimmer (nothing sticking out to hang on to). Wondering if the "pocket" into which you insert the case is shallow enough to trim a short cartridge case like 300 BLK.

I mean it’s not long but it works great
 

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I have moved away from chamfer & de-bur on the giruad & trim it II, they both cut length fine but they remove way too much, and almost sharpen the brass, weakening the mouth. No mater how you adjust them, they cut at an angle. The giruad is better for chamfer & de-bur then the trim it, but adjusting the trim it is far superior. Went to a flat cutter on the trim it II and finish on the Lyman, ads a little time, but get a good result on chamfer & de-bur.
 
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no one using the lee beam scale that comes in the cheap reloader kit??? I must be the only one.

I found mine to be really finicky, the ball bearing poise and little sliders weren’t my favorite to work with and it seemed to take more time to settle. I got a ohaus made Dillon scale and found it to be much easier to use.
 
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no one using the lee beam scale that comes in the cheap reloader kit??? I must be the only one.

I top off my precision loads by hand-trickling into a RCBS 505 beam scale! I really want a fancy scale, but I live on a budget. Every time I shop for a fancy scale, I buy more projectiles instead.
 
I top off my precision loads by hand-trickling into a RCBS 505 beam scale! I really want a fancy scale, but I live on a budget. Every time I shop for a fancy scale, I buy more projectiles instead.

Me too mate I live on a budget single income family with 3 young kids. I don't mind the lee beam scale seems to work for me, however I have never used anything else to know what I'm missing out on and I will keep it that way until it breaks....
 
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Me too mate I live on a budget single income family with 3 young kids. I don't mind the lee beam scale seems to work for me, however I have never used anything else to know what I'm missing out on and I will keep it that way until it breaks....

Real talk. Sometimes here on the Hide, it's easy to lose perspective reading about $5000 rifles with $3000 optics shooting $0.40 Berger bullets. Wish that was me, but it isn't. I get by with value, budget, scrimp, borrow, and make-do. I milk my gear and component costs to the maximum. That said, I HATE TRIMMING BRASS. Little Crow WFT is the best I've used so far, but I'm ready to sell a rifle to fund a Dillon RT1500+dies and just decap/size/trim/ball expand my brass on my 650. Maybe even skip deburr/chamfer/pockets. As it is, I spend far more time reloading rounds than shooting them, and life is short. I'll give up 1/8 MOA for friggin' fast reloading, but not sure it's possible.

Is it possible to neck size/shoulder bump using a RT1500 process?
 
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Is it possible to neck size/shoulder bump using a RT1500 process?

Sure is, I do it on my 650. Deprime in station 1, dillon trim die in station 4 setup to bump shoulder, squeeze neck down and trim to length with RT1500 and 21st Century mandrel in last station to open neck up setting .002 neck tension. Been doing it for years now.
 
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I top off my precision loads by hand-trickling into a RCBS 505 beam scale! I really want a fancy scale, but I live on a budget. Every time I shop for a fancy scale, I buy more projectiles instead.

For years I threw charges with a set of plastic Lee dippers or a powder measure and trickled up. I love my Chargemaster and its plenty accurate for the girls that I run with!

I'm retired now but I had a decent job and I don't see a $5000 powder measure in my future!
 
Id say that what you are willing to spend on all these top tier products has everything to do with what you’re planning on doing with said rounds. If you’re shooting competitively at a high level in F-Class and your skills have been mastered, sure. But tbh, Id say 99% of the shooters here would be better served with $3000 in reloading equipment, and $2100 in training/ammo, than $5100 on a powder thrower alone.

Not saying the prometheus isnt a great option, just not one I will be choosing unless my numbers match up on the LottoMax. Thats a lot of cash to be laying down when a shitty wind call negates everything you’ve done loading that round.
 
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Dillon 550 with clamped tool heads and floating dies

Giraud trimmer with Hornady lock rings

Benchsource annealer

Auto Throw, Auto Charge and Fx-120i

Bushing sizers, mandrels and comp seaters

Sinclair concentricity gauge

Small shank Savage bbls and floating bolt heads
 
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While all of that stuff is nice I use a Lee single stage, mostly Lee dies(some foster), Lee bench primer(I can't imagine it being any easier), and a chargemaster. My ammo is ridic concentric and exact. So don't think you have to spend a lot to make good ammo. I agree some things speed up the process and make it easier but you still don't have to spend a lot of money. I also think people get too hung up on powder charges being exact. If 0.1 gr makes that big of a difference in your ammo, you don't have a good load.
 
While all of that stuff is nice I use a Lee single stage, mostly Lee dies(some foster), Lee bench primer(I can't imagine it being any easier), and a chargemaster. My ammo is ridic concentric and exact. So don't think you have to spend a lot to make good ammo. I agree some things speed up the process and make it easier but you still don't have to spend a lot of money. I also think people get too hung up on powder charges being exact. If 0.1 gr makes that big of a difference in your ammo, you don't have a good load.

Glad to hear Lee anything is working out for you.
I had a brass trimmer that would not cut my brass to min trim lengrh. I called Lee, they said it is tolerance stacking, it would be out of spec if stacked and didn't care it could not cut to spec, didn't even offer to replace it.

They knowingly sell equipment that can be out of spec and don't stand behind it. Pretty poor.

I promptly returned thier crap.

Seems like old Lee reloading equipment used to be made well.
 
Glad to hear Lee anything is working out for you.
I had a brass trimmer that would not cut my brass to min trim lengrh. I called Lee, they said it is tolerance stacking, it would be out of spec if stacked and didn't care it could not cut to spec, didn't even offer to replace it.

They knowingly sell equipment that can be out of spec and don't stand behind it. Pretty poor.

I promptly returned thier crap.

Seems like old Lee reloading equipment used to be made well.
Yea the press mounted trimmer works fine for me but it is finicky. If you don't do things just right it wont be consistent. That will be the thing I step up from and buy something better. But honestly I see no reason to replace anything else. One of the feeders for the bench primer broke and they 2nd day shipped a new one to me because I needed it quickly.