PRS Talk Preferred trainer rifle caliber?
- Thread starter Peter Laurvick
- Start date
Which one will get you out shooting more? If you’ll shoot one more over the over, there’s your answer.
Similar to above question, is money a factor? .22 is stupid cheap.
What distance do you have to practice? If less than 400, .22 is the answer.
Similar to above question, is money a factor? .22 is stupid cheap.
What distance do you have to practice? If less than 400, .22 is the answer.
I think 223 is Definetely the way to go here.
I found myself shooting alot of matches and wanting more time to practice without the expense of match ammo and barrel life. I built a 223 and couldn't be happier.
While initially I was worried that 223 would spoil me in terms of managing recoil, what it really allows me to do is focus on position building, fumdemtals, and wind calls.
My wind hold with a 223 at 300 yards (furthest my practice range goes) is nearly the same as my 6.5 at 700 yards in a 5 mph wind. It's definetely increased my wind confidence.
Also, it makes a good backup rifle. I've developed a practice load (75 gr Hornady bthp at 2850 fps) that's super cheap to shoot and practice with. I also developed a match load (75 gr eldm at 2950 fps) that shoots lights out. I've even ran it in a couple matches and it hammers.
Build a 223 man you won't regret it.
I found myself shooting alot of matches and wanting more time to practice without the expense of match ammo and barrel life. I built a 223 and couldn't be happier.
While initially I was worried that 223 would spoil me in terms of managing recoil, what it really allows me to do is focus on position building, fumdemtals, and wind calls.
My wind hold with a 223 at 300 yards (furthest my practice range goes) is nearly the same as my 6.5 at 700 yards in a 5 mph wind. It's definetely increased my wind confidence.
Also, it makes a good backup rifle. I've developed a practice load (75 gr Hornady bthp at 2850 fps) that's super cheap to shoot and practice with. I also developed a match load (75 gr eldm at 2950 fps) that shoots lights out. I've even ran it in a couple matches and it hammers.
Build a 223 man you won't regret it.
Attachments
.22
.223
308
Advantages and disadvantages to all
.223
308
Advantages and disadvantages to all
I use both .308 and .223 to train with. I really prefer .223 but I will tell you when you have one that matches the weight of your match rifle it is so easy to shoot it can make you get lazy and sloppy off barricades.
223 that I load on a progressive press, cheap to load and I don't burn up my match barrel on practice.
I swap the barrels out between matches so all my practice is the same rifle, stock, scope, barrel length... Only the caliber is different.
Takes me less than 10 minutes to load 100 rounds of practice ammo. SD in the low teens, great accuracy, plenty for practice out to 600+
I swap the barrels out between matches so all my practice is the same rifle, stock, scope, barrel length... Only the caliber is different.
Takes me less than 10 minutes to load 100 rounds of practice ammo. SD in the low teens, great accuracy, plenty for practice out to 600+
There is a guy I shoot with(Collin F. Wyoming) who Murders matches with his .223. It’s his backup from his .243. Inspired me where I plan on building a .223. He shoots 75&80gr bullets I think it’s a great idea. I see Nico Detour has a .223 trainer as well
223...mine is a twin to my impact match rifle that stays some form of 6 or 6.5....ammo is fast on the dillon 650
a 223 slingin 80+ at 2700+ is as competitive as you can make it inside 1k
a 223 slingin 80+ at 2700+ is as competitive as you can make it inside 1k
Another vote for 223, mainly on cost. I'm running 80 ELDs at ~2800 from a suppressed 26" Bartlein.
.223 can actually do a lot of what larger cartridges can do maybe not as well, but it can actually be shot at 800-1000 yards. With a 22lr you have to shoot at shorter ranges and pretend your not. Its a totally different type of "training". If its about cost then why not shoot a .17 air rifle those are even cheaper then 22lr to shoot, and their performance is closer to a 22lr then a .223 is to a 22lr.
You’ve made several posts on the .22 subject and it’s obvious you don’t understand.
Matching performance at the same range doesn’t really matter.
If you are shooting a 2 moa target with a .22 at 200 yds and have to hold for wind, you’re getting the same training value as shooting a 2 moa target at 600 yds and holding wind with a .223.
There’s something to be said for recoil management training, but a .223 won’t get you that either.
.22lr.
Cheap. Think of it a ¼ scale .308. Don't need long ranges to simulate long ranges.
Cheap. Think of it a ¼ scale .308. Don't need long ranges to simulate long ranges.
Yeah, with 75-80+ gr projectiles, 223 is way more capable than a lot of people give it credit for. I've had mine out to 1350 now with reasonable success. Wind is a real bitch after 1k, though.
On recoil, it depends. My 223 is maybe a pound lighter than my PRS match rifle, but my match rig wears a brake and my 223 has a Ultra 7 can on it. As a result, the 223 actually pushes me around more on barricades and such than my 6 Creedmoor does.
Recoiling more and recoiling enough to make you get behind the gun is different.
Does it recoil enough to make you build a better position?
224 Valkyrie, it's cheap to reload or cheap to buy at Walmart. Ballistics closer to what I actually shoot and as a bonus I can actually use it to compete with or can let a friend or one of the kids use.
Yep, it does. Not as much as, say, an unbraked 308 (or even a 308 with the same brake as my 6), but it's a noticable enough difference to make me work for it. I'm not big on free recoil, either, so even on my 6 Creed I keep enough shoulder in it to keep it well under control.
How much are you guys really saving on 223 vs 6/6.5 whatever you're shooting in matches?
6/something... buck a case averaged over 10 shots before you lose or wear it out, 35 cents for a berger, 30-40 grs of powder, primer
223 - looks like 73-80gr ELDs are 21 cents, call it 23gr powder, same primer. unless you' shooting free/pickup brass, brass might be half the cost?
My math says its 20-25 cents saving per unless you start skimping on components?
Not burning out a barrel seems like it might be more interesting though.
6/something... buck a case averaged over 10 shots before you lose or wear it out, 35 cents for a berger, 30-40 grs of powder, primer
223 - looks like 73-80gr ELDs are 21 cents, call it 23gr powder, same primer. unless you' shooting free/pickup brass, brass might be half the cost?
My math says its 20-25 cents saving per unless you start skimping on components?
Not burning out a barrel seems like it might be more interesting though.
i dont factor the cost of any of it, but the advantage for me is my 223 barrel i can shoot for a long time before i have to worry about the barrel taking a dump or tweaking anything with the load...with my 6 creeds ive gotta start planning around the 800-1k mark and the 6.5s in the 1500-2k mark...neither of those last long shooting 1-2 club matches a month and a handful of 2 days every year
it more of a convenient back up/club match rifle than anything, its always going to be ready to go for a long time
i have a 308 barrel for similar reasons that gets shot some, but the projectiles are more, so i lean to the 223 more often
the 6.5 creed barrel/rifle i shot in NM in June hasnt been touched since, and wont be used until the NRL finale most likely
it more of a convenient back up/club match rifle than anything, its always going to be ready to go for a long time
i have a 308 barrel for similar reasons that gets shot some, but the projectiles are more, so i lean to the 223 more often
the 6.5 creed barrel/rifle i shot in NM in June hasnt been touched since, and wont be used until the NRL finale most likely
~25-30c per for 223 vs ~60-65c per for 6 Creedmoor. I can't remember if I factored in brass life on that, but my 223 brass is basically free anyway.
Barrel life on the 223 is also double or more what my 6 Creedmoor is.
$700 a barrel / 2000 shots (insert your number here) = 35 cents a shot in barrel life. Cheap barrels is def part of the equation if you are concerned on the costs.
My exact costs below. I save over 50 cents per round fired ...
Send me a PM with your email address an I can send you the Excel spreadsheet. It's fill-in-the blank and does all the math for you.
Yea, the barrel burnout and cost helps a ton.
Lets say you decide to do a 6.5 match and .223 trainer.
2500 rnds per 6.5 barrel
Lets say 7500 rnds on .223 to make the math easier.
You’d have to buy 3 barrels for 6.5 @ $700 = $2100
Vs $700 for one .223 barrel
So, that’s a $1400 savings.
Now, lets say you save $0.20/rnd x 7500 = $1500
So, if it took you 7500 rnds to burn out your .223 barrel, you’d save $2900 vs doing the same thing with the 6.5.
I’ll have to find the post I did on .22 savings. But lets do that real quick.
Lets take 10,000 rnds of sk standard plus. That’s $1000.
10,000 rnds of American gunner 6.5 which is decent practice ammo, is $5000.
You need 4 barrels to shoot 10k 6.5. That’s $2100. Lets say you bought a vudoo barreled action with trigger. That cancels that out.
You still save $4000 per 10k rnds fired
Lets say you want to build a .223 or a vudoo trainer and they both cost the same. Lets say the .223 barrel is good for 10,000 rnds.
.22 ammo = $0.10/rnd
.223 ammo = 0.40/rnd
.30 x 10,000 = $3,000
And now you have to buy another .223 barrel at $700
So, $3700 savings per 10k rounds fired with the .223
So, the savings are substantial IF you put in the rounds needed to accumulate the costs.
Definitely some great feedback from you guys on this.
I run a .223 Ackley Improved for my trainer. I wanted that tiny bit of added horsepower over the standard .223. I run a 22BR as my match rifle and I wanted to match up that 3k velocity, even though I use a different bullet.
I buy the bulk 75gr Hornady BTHP Match in boxes of 4k at a time. Its SUPER cost effective at $540 for 4000 pills. I can load about 600 rounds an hour on my Dillin 650 progressive, so it's also very efficient on my time. I just went with a McGowan Remage pre-fit on a blue printed Remington action with an M16 extractor, and it treats me great. I've won local matches with it.
I mostly shoot it 500 yards or less on positional and barricade practice. But it's certainly capable of long range impacts. My buddy and I stayed with Nick Arnold with Straight Jacket Armory in Evanston Wyoming for the Hornady PRC match. At Nick's private range I was punching the 2 MoA 1178 yard plate pretty consistently.
A well set up trainer is definitely the way to get in quality trigger time.
I run a .223 Ackley Improved for my trainer. I wanted that tiny bit of added horsepower over the standard .223. I run a 22BR as my match rifle and I wanted to match up that 3k velocity, even though I use a different bullet.
I buy the bulk 75gr Hornady BTHP Match in boxes of 4k at a time. Its SUPER cost effective at $540 for 4000 pills. I can load about 600 rounds an hour on my Dillin 650 progressive, so it's also very efficient on my time. I just went with a McGowan Remage pre-fit on a blue printed Remington action with an M16 extractor, and it treats me great. I've won local matches with it.
I mostly shoot it 500 yards or less on positional and barricade practice. But it's certainly capable of long range impacts. My buddy and I stayed with Nick Arnold with Straight Jacket Armory in Evanston Wyoming for the Hornady PRC match. At Nick's private range I was punching the 2 MoA 1178 yard plate pretty consistently.
A well set up trainer is definitely the way to get in quality trigger time.
I had a .223 chambered for my Bighorn. I swap barrels and can use the exact same gun, chassis, trigger, scope as my match set-up. And I can shoot Tac-class if I want.
The goal isn't necessarily saving money. For me, it's not burning up the match barrel on practice that's the goal. It's also about efficiency on the bench.
On a progressive you can load about 100rds every ten minutes. Not to say you can't load larger calibers than 223 on a progressive, but I think most guys prefer to single load match ammo and weigh charges individually.
On a progressive it's done with a powder drop so it's not as precise, but still plenty capable at 'practice' yardages.
Many others have mentioned it, but I am in the same boat, I built a 223 to save the barrel on my BR. My BR only comes out to confirm zero, check speeds and shoot in a match. Otherwise, the 223 is in the truck. They are super easy to load for and are a blast to shoot. A few buddies run Magtech First Defense Sniper Ammo - 556C, loaded with 77gn SMK's. From what I hear they shoot great and typically run around .55$ per round. I still hand load for mine, shoots the 75gn ELD's like a champ...I plan on running it in a few Tac classes next year.
I built mine to be exact replicas minus the scope. Opted for an AMG to attempt to lighten up the rifle to allow for more recoil. Otherwise, they are the same.
I built mine to be exact replicas minus the scope. Opted for an AMG to attempt to lighten up the rifle to allow for more recoil. Otherwise, they are the same.
22lr is 1/4 scale 308. If you reload, I'd think that 223AI might be interesting over 223, though the 224V seems like it would be a better way to have cheap, but high performance ammo. Not using a barrel brake should help a smaller gun generate more recoil?
