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Short, Really Short 308

Crews

Crews

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • May 11, 2017
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    Hallsville, Tx
    I'm going to build a lightweight shorty 308 in a chassis, probably an SBR but in the base case pistol. This is for 0-300 yard night hunting with a thermal. I've been very happy so far with the performance of 115 Bergers going 2,950fps out of my 16" AT barrel. Just getting tired of toting that chunk around.

    So I'm trying to decide how short is too short. 12" comes to mind first. Reloader guy is telling me quickload predicted the following: 95% powder burn with my current velocity out of 16" barrel. 2740fps out of a 12" barrel with 92% powder burn. That drops me down from 1,110 ft/lb to 970ft/lb of energy at max 300 yard distance. Wondering if that equates to a lot less knock down power in the real world. TBAC recommends minimum barrel length of 14.5" for 308, so I'm also wrestling with potential damage to my can.

    So what does the Hide think, anyone got experience with a 12" 308? Am I crazy for wanting to try it?
     
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    I'll exaggerate this for the sake of the question but I'm assuming by knock down power what you really mean is 970 ft/lb enough energy at 300 yards to create the desired and appropriate expansion of the 115 Bergers for a clean kill while maintaining predictable and acceptable accuracy?

    My above statement being that 3000 ft/lb at 4000 fps @ 300yds means nothing if the bullet is not capable of transfering that energy on target by sufficient expansion and penetration. And ethically it means nothing if the accuracy isn't repeatable and predictable after meeting the desired expansion/ penetration requirements.
     
    If weight is the main issue then you might also consider a 12" 6.5 Grendel.

    Federal AE 90gr TNT will have a MV close to 2700 FPS. 1.2 mils of drop at 300 with velocity around 2k and energy around 855 ft/lbs.

    123gr SSTs should yield about 100 ft/lbs more energy at 300 yards (with an obvious decrease in velo).

    My 12.5" SBR Grendel weighs 6 lbs without optic. Very soft shooter too with H2 buffer and AGB. Perfect thermal host IMO.
     
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    Is this kinda what you're going for?
    Screenshot_20200519-161453~2.png
     
    • Haha
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    Bevo said:
    If weight is the main issue then you might also consider a 12" 6.5 Grendel.

    Federal AE 90gr TNT will have a MV close to 2700 FPS. 1.2 mils of drop at 300 with velocity around 2k and energy around 855 ft/lbs.

    123gr SSTs should yield about 100 ft/lbs more energy at 300 yards (with an obvious decrease in velo).

    My 12.5" SBR Grendel weighs 6 lbs without optic. Very soft shooter too with H2 buffer and AGB. Perfect thermal host IMO.
    Click to expand...

    so I’ve been using 12” 6.5 and 6.8 SBR’s for several years and I agree they’re a great tool. Recently started using a bolt gun and there’s just something about it that I really like. I realize there’s lots of tools that are theoretically better.
     
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    KSC86 said:
    And ethically it means nothing if the accuracy isn't repeatable and predictable after meeting the desired expansion/ penetration requirements.
    Click to expand...
    This is just for the sake of some fun conversation man. I’ve been night hunting with an AR forever and just want some change in my life. Working the bolt has been fun lately and I thought I’d ask if anyone else out there has had the same ideas and tried it with an SBR length bolt gun. I’ll save the ethics commentary for all the other worthwhile game animal other than hogs
     
    Last edited:
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    Crews said:
    This is just for fun man. I’ve been night hunting with an AR forever and just want some change in my life. Working the bolt has been fun and I thought I’d ask if anyone else out there has had the same ideas and tried it with an SBR length gun. I’ll save the ethics for any game animal other than hogs.
    Click to expand...

    I'm glad you've been hunting with an AR forever. I'm not opposed to you researching the idea and asking the questions you have based on the parameters you wish to achieve and seeking the answers of what's possible.

    I am opposed to the usage of "knock down power" within the firearms community because there is no such thing... it doesn't fucking exist. And perpetuating that brings some beginner into the fallacy that it does.

    I'm also opposed to your statement regarding ethics for anything but hogs. Because it breaks a fundamental rule of firearm safety. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to destroy, kill, whatever word you'd like to use.

    If you are not objectively looking at the capability of the weapon system you are developing to understand it's potential shortfalls for the task at hand in an ethical sense for the intended target usage then don't give some beginner or even far worse, someone anti anything related to the firearms and hunting communities, the sense that these are the things the communities are willing to accept.

    If you are using it to take a life, ethics shouldn't be optional. Period.
     
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    Reactions: bachelorjack, R_Swanson, CerebralDistortion and 3 others
    If I were hanging a $1000 weight off the end of my barrel, that cost a year of my life and an additional $200 to obtain, I'd abide by their minimum barrel lengths...
     
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    KSC86 said:
    I'm glad you've been hunting with an AR forever. I'm not opposed to you researching the idea and asking the questions you have based on the parameters you wish to achieve and seeking the answers of what's possible.

    I am opposed to the usage of "knock down power" within the firearms community because there is no such thing... it doesn't fucking exist. And perpetuating that brings some beginner into the fallacy that it does.

    I'm also opposed to your statement regarding ethics for anything but hogs. Because it breaks a fundamental rule of firearm safety. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to destroy, kill, whatever word you'd like to use.

    If you are not objectively looking at the capability of the weapon system you are developing to understand it's potential shortfalls for the task at hand in an ethical sense for the intended target usage then don't give some beginner or even far worse, someone anti anything related to the firearms and hunting communities, the sense that these are the things the communities are willing to accept.

    If you are using it to take a life, ethics shouldn't be optional. Period.
    Click to expand...

    now that the Sunday morning sermon is over..... you need to chill out dude.
     
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    Aaros143 said:
    What about a 6.8 bolt rifle?
    Click to expand...
    long range sponge said:
    Why not consider a 6.5 grendel Howa Oryx mini with the barrel chopped? It would be relatively inexpensive bolt gun option.
    Click to expand...

    y’all think a 110-120grn pill in either would get over 2,700fps out of a 12” barrel? Also, I’m limited to box ammo, and don’t reload. I stumbled upon 4 free boxes of Hornady TAP 308 with 110 (I think Vmax?) bullets. That’s what got me started on this kick... they were an absolute game changer compared to my 12” 6.8 shooting 120SST’s.

    after I burned through all those I found a small reloading outfit selling 115 Bergers in once fired LC brass. It’s doing well enough for $.86/round.
     
    KSC86 said:
    I'm glad you've been hunting with an AR forever. I'm not opposed to you researching the idea and asking the questions you have based on the parameters you wish to achieve and seeking the answers of what's possible.

    I am opposed to the usage of "knock down power" within the firearms community because there is no such thing... it doesn't fucking exist. And perpetuating that brings some beginner into the fallacy that it does.

    I'm also opposed to your statement regarding ethics for anything but hogs. Because it breaks a fundamental rule of firearm safety. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to destroy, kill, whatever word you'd like to use.

    If you are not objectively looking at the capability of the weapon system you are developing to understand it's potential shortfalls for the task at hand in an ethical sense for the intended target usage then don't give some beginner or even far worse, someone anti anything related to the firearms and hunting communities, the sense that these are the things the communities are willing to accept.

    If you are using it to take a life, ethics shouldn't be optional. Period.
    Click to expand...
    "Lighten up Francis."
     
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    hlee said:
    If I were hanging a $1000 weight off the end of my barrel, that cost a year of my life and an additional $200 to obtain, I'd abide by their minimum barrel lengths...
    Click to expand...

    I have to think there’s some margin for error built in there but you’re probably right. If I was smart I’d avoid another tax stamp and pin my muzzle device at 14.5”
     
    I think these are built with howa minis. Probably not for OP, but interesting option if you’re looking for a light, short 6.5 Grendel or .300BLK pistol bolt gun.

    jtacindustries.com

    Elf Owl Pistol

    Please refer to the banner at the top of our website, or contact us for current lead times. Updated Handguards shipping on all new orders! See below for specs and the main product image or our social media for pictures! Send FFL info to [email protected] or attach via the option above. The...
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    Crews said:
    y’all think a 110-120grn pill in either would get over 2,700fps out of a 12” barrel? Also, I’m limited to box ammo, and don’t reload. I stumbled upon 4 free boxes of Hornady TAP 308 with 110 (I think Vmax?) bullets. That’s what got me started on this kick... they were an absolute game changer compared to my 12” 6.8 shooting 120SST’s.

    after I burned through all those I found a small reloading outfit selling 115 Bergers in once fired LC brass. It’s doing well enough for $.86/round.
    Click to expand...

    Didn't realize 2700 fps was a requirement. Are you after speed or energy on target?? You stated you've used grendel SBRs in the past. (Guessing they were semis) You should get better velocity from a bolt gun. Like Bevo said, 90s for close to the new 2700 fps minimum speed and over 850ft/lbs at 300yds or 123s at around 2300 fps should net about 900 ft/lbs at 300yds. The 129 or 130gr loads would hit even harder. That's nearly what you've figured you'd get from your 308 load. EXCEPT the 12" grendel should be safe for your can.

    I guess I should also ask, what made the Tap ammo a "game changer" over your 6.8?
     
    long range sponge said:
    Didn't realize 2700 fps was a requirement. Are you after speed or energy on target??

    I guess I should also ask, what made the Tap ammo a "game changer" over your 6.8?
    Click to expand...

    2700 was a guess on velocity I’d get down to if I chopped a barrel down to 12-14ish inches.

    It’s all admittedly anecdotal, but with this quarantine I’ve been hunting a lot. There’s been a lot more one shot bang flops. And for some reason significantly easier to get impacts on running hogs. I’m guessing this is just simply a much faster bullet giving me a larger margin of error. It could also just be as simple as my 15# AIAT being a lot more stable and not have shit to do with caliber wars. Haha!

    With this in mind I guess I’m looking for the speed without giving up the energy I’d lose going smaller than a 110-120ish size bullet. And also guys.... I’ve still got the 12.5” 6.8 AR!!!!
     
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    Bevo said:
    I think these are built with howa minis. Probably not for OP, but interesting option if you’re looking for a light, short 6.5 Grendel or .300BLK pistol bolt gun.

    jtacindustries.com

    Elf Owl Pistol

    Please refer to the banner at the top of our website, or contact us for current lead times. Updated Handguards shipping on all new orders! See below for specs and the main product image or our social media for pictures! Send FFL info to [email protected] or attach via the option above. The...
    jtacindustries.com jtacindustries.com
    Click to expand...

    been coon fingering their website for a few days. I’m particularly interested in their stock since I’m looking for a child-sized LOP for my thermal’s short eye relief. They have one for 700SA too.
     
    I am super interested in this.

    I've been wanting to Form 1 an AXSA and waiting on the 8.6 Creedmoor to become more than an idea.

    TBAC 338 Ultra paperwork has my patience built in.
     
    Good luck with your project.

    I do not see any need for an ultra short bolt action for hunting but you might have that need or interest. I am yet to encounter the need.

    Short barrels are loud, even suppressed. They have less energy. Burn suppressors out worse in auto and semi auto but likely not much of a factor in a bolt gun.
     
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    If you purchased a new action that was never barreled could it be a pistol and skip the NFA issue?
     
    rth1800 said:
    If you purchased a new action that was never barreled could it be a pistol and skip the NFA issue?
    Click to expand...

    That is my understanding, that if you buy the action only, straight from the factory, they are transferred as a "firearm" not a "rifle" and can be made into pistols. I am no lawyer and would seek more information first though.
     
    This Remington product immediately comes to mind. 10.5" barrel I think? Laughed at it when I first saw it, but maybe it fits your needs.
     

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    Yeah oddly enough that's just about perfect for what I'm doing. It's definitely going to be a specialized tool.
     
    rth1800 said:
    Short barrels are loud, even suppressed. They have less energy. Burn suppressors out worse in auto and semi auto but likely not much of a factor in a bolt gun.
    Click to expand...

    This is all true.

    The bottom line is, they're ridiculously fun. It's transonic at 600 yards with a 135g SMK. Anything beyond that range is like shooting a recurve at 100 yards. You just don't do it.
     
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    Look up Black Collar Arms and their Pork Sword chassis, pretty sure it is exactly what you are looking for and I’m pretty sure if you contact them they have a bunch of velocity data they can provide for the short barrels.

    blackcollararms.com

    Home 2 - Black Collar Arms

    Click on any picture above to buy Desperado, the coolest rifle sling ever. Click here to purchase the new Priapus grip Pork Sword Stalker A big bore 12-inch shorty, the Pork Sword Stalker is purpose built for hunting and tactical use, especially in tight environments such as in a side-by-side or...
    blackcollararms.com blackcollararms.com
     
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    The short barrel rifles are cool looking and fun for run and shoot, but serious flame throwers lol. We have several in 308 and 223. We don't ever hunt with them, they are a novelty; in fact, really only use them when people come over for entertainment lol.
     
    I’ve seen a 30-06 TC Contender before. Think it had a 12” barrel but it could have been shorter.
     
    If I was daring to be different, I might go all the way to 30BR or BRX. And build up an Origin action with a 1:17 or 18 twist barrel to shoot those 115s exclusively. A benchrest pistol for hunting.
     
    If you want to keep it down to one stamp, Suppressed Weapon Systems will do custom length integrals with a 1MOA guarantee.
     
    Another option to consider is skip the 308 and go 300BO. Although I am a BO dumbbelland do not have one, it may get you the hunting energy at those ranges you want and still uses the 30cal bullet you're looking at. I plan on a 300bo 9" bolt pistol but will only be a subsonic shooter. A friend has a 8" SBR in BO he hunts with with fast 110gr. Just an idea. Good luck and enjoy the new tool.
     
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    A .300 blackout is a great option for 110-125 grain supers and anything up to 220s for subs. plenty of energy for ethical kills. Super handloads have been very accurate but still chasing sub loads that will get me better than 1.5 MOA. .300 BO brass is easily created from .223/5.56 brass. Remy 300 BO with 10" barrel in a swine sword chassis (registered SBR).

    49868400913_7d500cb030_b.jpg
     
    Last edited:
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    Y’all please correct me if I’m off base here... My only problem with 300blk is that it’s not going to push a 110 grain bullet over 2700 out of a 14.5” barrel? I’ve shot lots of hogs with the 300blk out of SBR’s... it’s fine but I think not what I’m looking for here.
     
    Crews said:
    Y’all please correct me if I’m off base here... My only problem with 300blk is that it’s not going to push a 110 grain bullet over 2700 out of a 14.5” barrel? I’ve shot lots of hogs with the 300blk out of SBR’s... it’s fine but I think not what I’m looking for here.
    Click to expand...
    You're correct. Probably more like 2300.
     
    Crews said:
    Y’all please correct me if I’m off base here... My only problem with 300blk is that it’s not going to push a 110 grain bullet over 2700 out of a 14.5” barrel? I’ve shot lots of hogs with the 300blk out of SBR’s... it’s fine but I think not what I’m looking for here.
    Click to expand...

    I'm getting 2700FPS or greater with H332 and a 11" barrel in 308win. I'd say you're going to either increase barrel length or increase case capacity.
     
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