Weird stage results

hlee · Sep 10, 2018

I shot a local match this past weekend with odd results. Well, I had odd results on one stage.

The stage was set up shooting a target rack at 500 yards, and a circle target at 400 yards. The shooting prop for the stage was the hood of a car. The hood has a depression in the center that makes the whole surface more of a shallow bowl than a flat or domed surface. The black car had been baking in the central Texas sun all day and was scorching hot. Our squad threw down a light weight shooting mat over the hood to prevent the worst of the contact blisters.

Ok, that's the general stage setup. Now the odd results. My dope says 4mil of elevation to hit a 500 yard target. No problem, dial the elevation and let her fly. But, to get my 1 hit on this stage I was holding under almost 2 mil. And, it was not just me. I was spotting for the rest of the group and everyone was high. Moreover, I cleaned the PRS barricade stage which was also at 500, using the same dope- so I don't think it was a zero issue (which I also confirmed before the match- but t not after).

Now the question. What in that setup would allow a lack of execution of the fundamentals create a repeatable shift of almost 2 mils? How do I know it was repeatable? I watched my trace and splash, and corrected until I connected. Of course, I was holding off in the "negative space" of the reticle which made fine adjustment more difficult.

Oh well, if this game were easy it wouldn't be fun.

Eustice · Sep 11, 2018

You’re saying that you dialed 4 Mils of elevation, then had to hold the crosshairs 2 Mils under the target to have an impact? So a shift of 6 Mils total?

I wouldn’t think the surface you’re shooting off of would have that much of an effect. Unless the hood was extremely bouncy but even that seems to be a lot.

You say you didn’t check zero after that stage? Have you checked your base and rings to make sure everything is still where it is supposed to be and tight?

I have pencil lines on my scope. I just make a quick trace in front and behind each ring so if there’s movement it’s easily seen.

I hope someone with more knowledge than me comes along so I can learn something for that situation.

RTH1800 · Sep 11, 2018

I was not there of course. Assuming good equipment set up and data my best GUESS is one of two things. Extreme bipod hop due to springing off hood or less likely mirage.

morganlamprecht · Sep 11, 2018

nothing about that setup would cause a 2 mil shift...

my first question is what are you shooting that needs 4 mils to get to 500 yds? a 308 at 2400 fps?

Olen_4504 · Sep 11, 2018

was the range incorrect for the target? if everyone was off...possibility

morganlamprecht · Sep 11, 2018

hookedonbrass said:
was the range incorrect for the target? if everyone was off...possibility

this would be my 2nd question...it sounds like he was shooting at CCC in tx, and unless something has changed since last month the PRS barricade has always been 400 yds, not 500

lots of data in the original post isnt lining up

Olen_4504 · Sep 11, 2018

morganlamprecht said:
this would be my 2nd question...it sounds like he was shooting at CCC in tx, and unless something has changed since last month the PRS barricade has always been 400 yds, not 500

lots of data in the original post isnt lining up

i think per the rules the PRS Barricade has to be at 400yds correct? i don't feel like looking it up

RTH1800 · Sep 11, 2018

That is what I tried to say politely. Bad data/faulty facts.

morganlamprecht · Sep 11, 2018

hookedonbrass said:
i think per the rules the PRS Barricade has to be at 400yds correct? i don't feel like looking it up

yes, correct...it was just a monthly club match so its possible they changed the distance since prs rules wouldnt matter...but id guess unlikely...ive been shooting there 3-4 yrs and the prs barricade has always been 400 yds...the metal barricade is sometimes at various distances from 4-500 though, not sure which the OP is actually referencing

Eustice · Sep 11, 2018

The only other thing I could think was that the turret got dialed 4 Mils the wrong direction. I’ve watched very experienced shooters turn dials the wrong way. It happens sometimes.

RTH1800 · Sep 11, 2018

What? No ZS? ?

Sheldon N · Sep 11, 2018

This is why you always double check the ranges listed in the course of fire.

hlee · Sep 11, 2018

Ok, there are a lot of replies, so I’ll answer them in order...

First, I misremembered the distance, it was 600 to the target rack.

4mils of elevation to 600 dialed on scope. Held almost 2 mils below target to get hit. Total adjustment ~2 mils up to hit 600 yard target.

6.5 creedmoor Hornady 147 eldm

Yes, it was CCC In cawthon, Texas.

The steel barricade stage (I misrepresented this as the prs barricade in the original post) was shot at 500 instead of 400 for a change of pace- per the match director.

The scope has a zero stop.

I still need to confirm that the zero is not off. Though I confirmed zero before the match, it is not outside the realm of possibility that it shifted.

Eustice · Sep 11, 2018

Zero stop means you didn’t dial the wrong way. So that leaves the scope being out of whack or some nasty hop off the hood. How were the other competitors doing on that stage?

If I’m reading everything right you dialed up 4 Mils and then had to hold under by 2 Mils. Meaning the crosshairs were off by 6 Mils. At 600 yards that’s almost 11 feet off. (3.6”/100 yards x 6 Mils)

6 Mils would be a lot for the scope to be off but if there was an internal failure on the scope it’s believable. 6 Mils for bipod hop doesn’t seem reasonable.

Tx_Aggie · Sep 11, 2018

Eustice said:
If I’m reading everything right you dialed up 4 Mils and then had to hold under by 2 Mils. Meaning the crosshairs were off by 6 Mils. At 600 yards that’s almost 11 feet off. (3.6”/100 yards x 6 Mils)

OP says he had to hold 2 Mil under the target to get hits. He also says he (and everyone else in his squad) was initially shooting over the target with the 4 Mil he had dialed on. So 4-2 = 2 Mils actual effective elevation, since he was cancelling out 2 Mil of dialed elevation on the turret by holding under the target (instead of over it).

As others have said, that suggests the targets were at 400 yards instead of 600. Especially since the entire squad was having a similar issue.

Eustice · Sep 11, 2018

Tx_Aggie said:
OP says he had to hold 2 Mil under the target to get hits. He also says he (and everyone else in his squad) was initially shooting over the target with the 4 Mil he had dialed on. So 4-2 = 2 Mils actual effective elevation, since he was cancelling out 2 Mil of dialed elevation on the turret by holding under it (instead of over it).

As others have said, that suggests the targets were at 400 yards instead of 600. Especially since the entire squad was having a similar issue.

D’oh. You’re right. Now that I’ve reread it all that makes more sense. Much more sense. Thanks.

OP, what distance is 2 Mils of holdover. It does sound like the distance given was off. 2 Mils does sound more like about 400-420 yards given what you’re shooting.

Now I’m off to work on my reading comprehension.

Precision Underground · Sep 11, 2018

hlee said:
Ok, there are a lot of replies, so I’ll answer them in order...

First, I misremembered the distance, it was 600 to the target rack.

4mils of elevation to 600 dialed on scope. Held almost 2 mils below target to get hit. Total adjustment ~2 mils up to hit 600 yard target.

6.5 creedmoor Hornady 147 eldm

Yes, it was CCC In cawthon, Texas.

The steel barricade stage (I misrepresented this as the prs barricade in the original post) was shot at 500 instead of 400 for a change of pace- per the match director.

The scope has a zero stop.

I still need to confirm that the zero is not off. Though I confirmed zero before the match, it is not outside the realm of possibility that it shifted.

None of that makes any sense if you cleaned a stage at 500 using 4 mils and had a net of 2 mils to hit 600. Your scope failed, the distances were wrong, your zero is wrong, or you dialed wrong are the only options. Not to mention that cleaning a stage using 4 mils for 500 yards sounds ridic. That is way too much dope for 500 yards unless you are using a musket. I would go confirm zero and make sure something isn’t loose before thinking there is any chance someone here can give you a helpful answer!

hlee · Sep 11, 2018

jpgolffl said:
None of that makes any sense if you cleaned a stage at 500 using 4 mils and had a net of 2 mils to hit 600. Your scope failed, the distances were wrong, your zero is wrong, or you dialed wrong are the only options. Not to mention that cleaning a stage using 4 mils for 500 yards sounds ridic. That is way too much dope for 500 yards unless you are using a musket. I would go confirm zero and make sure something isn’t loose before thinking there is any chance someone here can give you a helpful answer!

Sorry, I have been less than clear. I misremembered the distance to the problematic stage target as 500 instead of the actual 600 yards. I cleaned the 500 yard stage using the correct dope for that distance. As the steel barricade stage and the car stage were shot at different distances (500 and 600), me cleaning one has much less bearing on sucking at the other. That is my poor memory, as I am away from my data from the match (business trip). You are correct that I need to do more investigation on my end. I might be able to get to the range on Friday. At any rate, I’ll update this with findings from checking zero, whenever that occurs.

Sniper266 · Sep 11, 2018

How was your recoil management? Just a though on top of everything else. I notice that if i have bad position my shots will fry a couple 1/10th of a mil high at 100 yards.

hlee · Sep 12, 2018

Hunched over a scorching hot car. Rifle on a somewhat slippery shooting mat. The bowl-like shape of the hood added another dimension as well. My recoil management was pretty not good. Not so bad that I missed seeing (most) impacts, but I wasn’t staying on target to the extent I would from prone.

I really don’t think the distance was off. This is a permanent target rack in front of a berm. Any members of the CCC range in Cawthon reading this? Can you confirm the distance to the TYL diamond and circle racks in front of the car and pavilion with the concrete benches?

I won’t be able to look over the rifle or do any shooting until Friday at the earliest.

Precision Underground · Sep 12, 2018

Can you see bullet trace at 600 yards when your recoil management is compromised?

morganlamprecht · Sep 12, 2018

hlee said:
Hunched over a scorching hot car. Rifle on a somewhat slippery shooting mat. The bowl-like shape of the hood added another dimension as well. My recoil management was pretty not good. Not so bad that I missed seeing (most) impacts, but I wasn’t staying on target to the extent I would from prone.

I really don’t think the distance was off. This is a permanent target rack in front of a berm. Any members of the CCC range in Cawthon reading this? Can you confirm the distance to the TYL diamond and circle racks in front of the car and pavilion with the concrete benches?

I won’t be able to look over the rifle or do any shooting until Friday at the earliest.

the distance to that rack is 500 yds from the cement benches under the pavilion

hlee · Sep 12, 2018

Well, looks like we have a diagnosis... Stupid Shooter Syndrome. Our squad shot the wrong plate rack. Or, we all read 500 but thought 600 and dialed accordingly. Or, the distance was wrong in the stage description. Being the last shooter in the squad, and the newest to the match, I shot what everyone else shot. That explains the weird results much better than bipod hop (though I would not put poor recoil management totally out of the equation). And, it explains why everyone in the squad was hitting high. There's more to match shooting that running a bolt and pulling a trigger...

Eventually I'm going to complete a match without a "dumpster fire stage."

hlee · Sep 12, 2018

jpgolffl said:
Can you see bullet trace at 600 yards when your recoil management is compromised?

Sometimes... Generally the target would stay in the scope, or close enough I could correct to catch a bit of trace and the splash behind the target.

But, the larger issue was shooting the wrong target, or misreading the stage description...

morganlamprecht · Sep 12, 2018

hlee said:
Well, looks like we have a diagnosis... Stupid Shooter Syndrome. Our squad shot the wrong plate rack. Or, we all read 500 but thought 600 and dialed accordingly. Or, the distance was wrong in the stage description. Being the last shooter in the squad, and the newest to the match, I shot what everyone else shot. That explains the weird results much better than bipod hop (though I would not put poor recoil management totally out of the equation). And, it explains why everyone in the squad was hitting high. There's more to match shooting that running a bolt and pulling a trigger...

Eventually I'm going to complete a match without a "dumpster fire stage."

its harder to do than it sounds lol i usually shoot at least 1 stages targets out of order or with the wrong # of rounds in club matches just being more laid back and less engaged than the bigger prs matches...i always take any weird issues (even ones for myself) with a grain of salt if they occur during a match and always wait until after the match to check/verify any issues...under the time pressure there's so many small things that you can do wrong on the clock, misread, misdial, or it even be wrong in the match book...i shot first on a stage before at range id never been to, and it was a speed stage, as many rounds as you could put on a small ipsc at 400 yds starting from standing and going prone in 20 seconds...i laid down and sent 2 into the dirt and then aimed at the head and hit it with all the rest of my rounds...i got my buddy standing to the side to range it and it was actually like 475 yds lol MD came by and confirmed, let me reshoot, and adjust the match book for everyone else...it happens

i have a habit now of ranging all targets myself at new ranges because ive come across a handful of ranging errors or typos...trust but verify

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