Rifle Scopes Why do so many 1-6/8 lpv scopes..

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 24, 2018

have such a large center aiming point?

Seems to defeat the purpose of the magnification a bit.

Trijicon accupower for ex. It's got the large, heavy segmented circle to pull your eye to the center at low power and when you dial it up it's got nice stadia but that damn .2mil center cross... Below 2x you can't see it anyway and above 4 it covers the target.

I was excited about the nx8 and atacr until I saw the 1-1.25 moa center dot.

I had a mk6 1-6 tmr-d that had a nice fine center cross hair but the segmented circle is so close and thick that it negated the benefit there. For me that one was almost perfect as far as weight, locking turret, illum control and mag ring.

Am I alone in thinking the center aiming point is too coarse on most of these optics? Are there some that aren't that I'm missing?

wade2big · Dec 24, 2018

Because they are designed so that the human eye can pick the reticle up quickly in less than ideal lighting conditions in order to place combat effective hits rapidly. These scopes are not long range precision optics.

I even prefer thicker reticles on my higher power scopes.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 24, 2018

wade2big said:
Because they are designed so that the human eye can pick the reticle up quickly in less than ideal lighting conditions in order to place combat effective hits rapidly. These scopes are not long range precision optics.

I even prefer thicker reticles on my higher power scopes.

And I can see that. The thicker outer crosshairs, circles, horseshoes or whatever else they design into them pull your eye in quick. Why can't there be a finer aiming point in the inner mil or so?

wade2big · Dec 24, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
And I can see that. The thicker outer crosshairs, circles, horseshoes or whatever else they design into them pull your eye in quick. Why can't there be a finer aiming point in the inner mil or so?

I havent looked through the scopes that you mentioned. I am biased though because i have never seen a reticle that i thought was too thick. I have seen lots that I thought were too thin.

flynbye · Dec 24, 2018

I run a trijicon 1-6 accupoint on a 10.5 I love it. On low power it’s just like a red dot but bigger. And 600y shots with the the 10.5 not hard

Tim_WNC · Dec 24, 2018

The Burris XTR II 1.5-8x has an awfully fine center dot. I don't recall the exact size, but I find it hard to find that dot (when not illuminated) at times unless the power is dialed up. That's as it should be I think.

Maxduty · Dec 24, 2018

Laughing as I read this. I got out an old .22 earlier today and glanced through the old target scope on it. Fine line stadia with an 1/8th minute dot. I only saw the dot at first and not that well. And that was in bright sunlight at 24x.

mgrs · Dec 24, 2018

The FFP reticles with coarse segmented circles and other large allow enough illuminated area when zoomed out to achieve daylight bright 1x 'dot.'

roamin · Dec 25, 2018

H27D has a fine reticle at magnification.

hk dave · Dec 25, 2018

It’s about speed of picking up the dot. The rifles that most of these scopes are intended for aren’t meant to be shot off a bench.

If shooting off hand, using a concrete block for support, off a rucksack, Moa is plenty fine for precision.

If wanting a fine reticle for long range precision, you’ve got the wrong tool.

steve123 · Dec 25, 2018

One reason I picked the Burris 1-8 XTR2 FFP was the .1 mil center dot. It works great for precision on higher mag. Basically the small center dot disappears at 1x but you have the 10 mil circle which works as an aperture for close shooting. One naturally centers objects in it. For instance a IPSC A zone is the same width at 15-20Y, same with a head shot.

I won our local 3 gun match first try with this scope and found it very easy to use at all the distances.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

I guess it's a matter of trying to do both but most on the market focus on the 1x useability.

I'd prefer one that can do 1x but leans toward top end useability.

308pirate · Dec 25, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
Trijicon accupower for ex. It's got the large, heavy segmented circle to pull your eye to the center at low power and when you dial it up it's got nice stadia but that damn .2mil center cross... Below 2x you can't see it anyway and above 4 it covers the target.

Please explain how that works when the Accupower 1-8X (the only one with a .2 mil thick center cross) is a FIRST FOCAL PLANE scope.........

And if it were a second focal plane scope, the center cross would effectively get smaller as magnification is increased.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

308pirate said:
Please explain how that works when the Accupower 1-8X (the only one with a .2 mil thick center cross) is a FIRST FOCAL PLANE scope.........

And if it were a second focal plane scope, the center cross would effectively get smaller as magnification is increased.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about.

I'm aware that it's ffp. I have one. When you crank up to 8x to I don't know, see the target better, to make a more precise shot the cross effectively covers a 1" dot. On low mag it's not like it's as visible as the dot in a 1-6 razor, which I also have one of.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

steve123 said:
One reason I picked the Burris 1-8 XTR2 FFP was the .1 mil center dot. It works great for precision on higher mag. Basically the small center dot disappears at 1x but you have the 10 mil circle which works as an aperture for close shooting. One naturally centers objects in it. For instance a IPSC A zone is the same width at 15-20Y, same with a head shot.

I won our local 3 gun match first try with this scope and found it very easy to use at all the distances.

Not a bad looking reticle other than the verticle line and stadia are on the thick side.

I may try the pa platinum 1-8 with the Griffin reticle.

308pirate · Dec 25, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
to make a more precise shot

Use something other than a 1-X scope

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

308pirate said:
Use something other than a 1-X scope

Then why bother pushing the envelope with 8x and beyond mag ranges

308pirate · Dec 25, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
Then why bother pushing the envelope with 8x and beyond mag ranges

You do whatever you wish. I have better tools than an AR with a general purpose scope for what you're apparently trying to do.

hk dave · Dec 25, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
Then why bother pushing the envelope with 8x and beyond mag ranges

Because it’s what we humans do.

Example #1, Porsche builds an SUV to cater to those that want a fast SUV, but it’ll never be a 911 Carrera.

Example #2, Canon makes a 28-300 lens. While it’ll work fine, it’ll never give you the quality of shorter zoom range designs.

Aside from this, the idea behind a 1-8x scope is that it must be usable at 1x.

I bet someone’s has already figured all this out with dual focal planes or whatever, I’m also betting it is unaffordable.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

308pirate said:
You do whatever you wish. I have better tools than an AR with a general purpose scope for what you're apparently trying to do.

Well no shit, I do too but figuring that most decent rifles will do 3/4 moa with good ammo why have all this magnification when the reticle aiming points are handicapping that.

As I said with the ffp scopes on 1x you can barely see that center aim point anyway, even with the illumination cranked up.That's where the horseshoes, circles and/or thick outer crosshairs come in.

FatBoy · Dec 25, 2018

I really don't see the point of FFP LPVOs. To 600y, you can dead hold or favor just about any moving target. Who needs more than 1-2 MOA of wind inside 600? Fuck a wind hold line, just swag it. If you need to hit a .5MOA target, train harder.

newguy2k3v2 · Dec 25, 2018

hk dave said:
Because it’s what we humans do.

Example #1, Porsche builds an SUV to cater to those that want a fast SUV, but it’ll never be a 911 Carrera.

Example #2, Canon makes a 28-300 lens. While it’ll work fine, it’ll never give you the quality of shorter zoom range designs.

Aside from this, the idea behind a 1-8x scope is that it must be usable at 1x.

I bet someone’s has already figured all this out with dual focal planes or whatever, I’m also betting it is unaffordable.

Dual focal is probably an answer if costs come down.

308pirate · Dec 25, 2018

FatBoy said:
I really don't see the point of FFP LPVOs. To 600y, you can dead hold or favor just about any moving target. Who needs more than 1-2 MOA of wind inside 600? Fuck a wind hold line, just swag it. If you need to hit a .5MOA target, train harder.

Fucking wish I could like this more than once

wade2big · Dec 25, 2018

newguy2k3v2 said:
I guess it's a matter of trying to do both but most on the market focus on the 1x useability.

I'd prefer one that can do 1x but leans toward top end useability.

1x is doable but not the point. If 1x is the main use, a red dot sight would fit the bill.

newguy2k3v2 said:
I'm aware that it's ffp. I have one. When you crank up to 8x to I don't know, see the target better, to make a more precise shot the cross effectively covers a 1" dot. On low mag it's not like it's as visible as the dot in a 1-6 razor, which I also have one of.

These scopes arent built to cater to target shooters that are shooting groups. Put the x over the target, pull the trigger. Hits are hits. If shooting tiny groups are your thing then a different scope type is warranted. These scopes are to make a carbines more effective at extended ranges then they would be with red dot sights. Hell with that being said, i hit 2/3 size silhouettes with my AK at 400yds like nothing with a red dot holding over. Any scope makes it easier no matter the reticle.

wade2big · Dec 25, 2018

The more thin and precise the reticle, sight post, or red dot, the slower and harder it is for the human eye to pick up in less than ideal conditions. The thicker and bolder, just the opposite happens. You give on one end and gain on the other. Where the balance point is determined by the purpose of the rifle being used. For high paced games at moderate distances, thinner and finer is a hindrance. I would imagine it would be more of a hindrance on the two way firing range.

flatland1 · Dec 25, 2018

I've got a couple of Weaver's 30mm ffp 1.5-6x24 Super Slams with #4 German Illum reticles. Bought them for use on AR15 carbines, and they're all right for that. But when I put one of these scopes on an A4 service rifle, for use in optical sighted XC HP matches, the center dot covers the whole bull when set at 4.5x, max allowed for these matches. Makes me wish Weaver had made them as sfp scopes. But if I were going after dangerous game, especially something with nasty teeth & claws that'd been wounded, I guess the big dot would be handy. Just bugs me that Weaver has the capability to build decent quality optics, but always seems to trip themselves up during the design process...

wade2big · Dec 25, 2018

flatland1 said:
I've got a couple of Weaver's 30mm ffp 1.5-6x24 Super Slams with #4 German Illum reticles. Bought them for use on AR15 carbines, and they're all right for that. But when I put one of these scopes on an A4 service rifle, for use in optical sighted XC HP matches, the center dot covers the whole bull when set at 4.5x, max allowed for these matches. Makes me wish Weaver had made them as sfp scopes. But if I were going after dangerous game, especially something with nasty teeth & claws that'd been wounded, I guess the big dot would be handy. Just bugs me that Weaver has the capability to build decent quality optics, but always seems to trip themselves up during the design process...

I’m not familiar with this scope but it seems like a fine duplex reticle scope would be the ticket for this kind of shooting. The FFP scopes like what you mentioned are not for winning matches where the goal is to put holes in paper close together but rather for putting effective rounds on target.

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