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Why you can’t afford NOT to own a Vudoo

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Dthomas3523

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    • Jan 31, 2018
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    This came up today and figured I’d do some number crunching.

    Many people use a .223 as a trainer. They also need 400yds or more for practice. You can do all you need with 100yds with a .22

    Gonna say for math sake that a .223 barrel is good for 5,000-10,000 rnds.

    Federal Gold medal match 77gr is what I will use for the standard and is $0.90/rnd

    SK Standard plus is $0.10/rnd

    That’s a $0.80 difference.

    5000 rnds = $4,000

    10,000 rnds = $8,000

    A new .223 barrel is about $700 (350 for barrel and 350 for chamber job)

    You’ll never burn your .22 barrel out.

    So, you’ll save either $8700 or $9400 every 10k rounds depending on the .223 barrel life.
     
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    Dthomas3523 said:
    This came up today and figured I’d do some number crunching.

    Many people use a .223 as a trainer. They also need 400yds or more for practice. You can do all you need with 100yds with a .22

    Gonna say for math sake that a .223 barrel is good for 5,000-10,000 rnds.

    Federal Gold medal match 77gr is what I will use for the standard and is $0.90/rnd

    SK Standard plus is $0.10/rnd

    That’s a $0.80 difference.

    5000 rnds = $4,000

    10,000 rnds = $8,000

    A new .223 barrel is about $700 (350 for barrel and 350 for chamber job)

    You’ll never burn your .22 barrel out.

    So, you’ll save either $8700 or $9400 every 10k rounds depending on the .223 barrel life.
    Click to expand...
    ....and they are just awesome...that's reason enough. Does anyone know of a good set of comparisons like shooting 22 at 100 meters On a 1 MOA target is like shooting a .308 on blah blah blah?
     
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    If we’re being honest here, I think we all know nobody on this board is going to own a 22 trainer in lieu of their 223 trainer. Likely this group would just have both! And shoot both equally as much as the other. There is no such thing as “saving” money in this hobby ?
     
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    This has been shared before , good read and information , 22 trainer



    finnaccuracy.com

    Long range 22LR trainer - how to get best out of it?

    22LR rifles have always been very popular. Most of us have one sitting in safety. Some of us have also spent quite a bit hard-earned money to make their small rimfire feel and look similar to favorite big center-fire. All in sake of realistic low-budget training. It is also not too uncommon to...
    finnaccuracy.com finnaccuracy.com
     
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    My greatest expense is travel.
    Dollar per round fired feeds the oil company and Michelin.
    Now moving, that will be my next purchase.
     
    Does anyone know of a good set of comparisons
    like shooting 22 at 100 meters on a 1 MOA target
    is like shooting a .308 on blah blah blah?

    Nope...no comparison. Recoil loads not anywhere near similar.
    Bullet shapes totally different. Don't forget barrel harmonics and barrel dwell time.
    Still, trigger time is trigger time and reading wind adds to the skill set.
    The more time spent shooting and instilling muscle memory helps whichever caliber used.
     
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    I built a vudoo identical to my prs comp rifle. It’s been great practice. I shoot it off my barricades in between strings of dasher as it’s cooling down. I have learned a lot about my trigger pull as the vudoo doesn’t move unless I cause it to. It has made me notice and recognize bad trigger control a lot more on my bigger guns.
     
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    justin amateur said:
    Does anyone know of a good set of comparisons
    like shooting 22 at 100 meters on a 1 MOA target
    is like shooting a .308 on blah blah blah?

    Nope...no comparison. Recoil loads not anywhere near similar.
    Bullet shapes totally different. Don't forget barrel harmonics and barrel dwell time.
    Still, trigger time is trigger time and reading wind adds to the skill set.
    The more time spent shooting and instilling muscle memory helps whichever caliber used.
    Click to expand...
    Refer to the above post and link

    Finnaccuracy
     
    I did read it. And quite a few more.
    The comparison doesn't work. Why? 150 shots with a 22lr is fun.
    150 consecutive shots with a 308 will put my shoulder in a sling for a week, even with a gel-pad. :(
     
    If you want recoil, you should be training with a .308.

    Training with a .223 gives zero advantage over a .22 unless you want to shoot to distance for wind without recoil. Otherwise, use a .308 at distance for wind.

    I can free recoil a .223 with just my hand on the optic and still spot impacts. The recoil isn’t enough to punish you for a bad position.
     
    For me it's the difficulty in getting to a decent (not annoying) rifle range after "urban sprawl" shut down most of the decent close by ranges, so when I do make the drive, I don't mind spending the money on shooting rifles chambered in $1, $2 and $5 bills.

    The voodoo is great and I was looking at one, but for the money I'll just get my dream .22 eventually even though I'm not in an area where I can ski with it.
     
    Addressing travel and time constraints.

    2.8 cents a projectile for match grade .177 pellets in a quality PCP air rifle. Half that cost for cheap practice ammo that will do 1" or less at 30Y.
    Air is cheap/$7 to fill a tank which will last a few tins on lower power models.
    1/2" at 50Y in windless conditions, however learning wind is part of the fun and part of the point of having one of these. The drift at 50Y is 4 times the amount a 22 rimfire has at that distance.
    Often these come with moderators attached to reduce noise.
    Shoot in your own yard or shop and pick size of target to suit for practice.

    It's trigger time so lots of fun. I think everyone that loves rifles should own a PCP air rifle! Get your friends into them and shoot for quarters, if you win enough it's like they bought you lunch.
     
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    justin amateur said:
    I did read it. And quite a few more.
    The comparison doesn't work. Why? 150 shots with a 22lr is fun.
    150 consecutive shots with a 308 will put my shoulder in a sling for a week, even with a gel-pad. :(
    Click to expand...
    I shot 100 rounds of 308 a few weeks ago in under 3 hours. Had absolutely no pain from it. I weigh 130lbs. Mine does have a brake.
     
    justin amateur said:
    Many years ago, when the earth was young and rocks were still soft,
    I could do a lot of things, that are only now showing the after effects.
    30.06 with no butt pad didn't help things either. ;)
    Click to expand...
    Paying to have your 308 braked(unless you are vehemently against brakes which I would understand fully) will literally make it fun to shoot hundreds of rounds. Unless maybe it’s some super light weight hunter setup . But I understand your analogy well.
     
    I'm in the air rifle camp for just straight trigger time. I shoot a BSA R-10 .22 Cal. Have 2 big scuba tanks that get me thousands of shots without a refill. Shoot out to 100 yards with it. Shoots in the exact same hole just about every time inside 30. I used to use a flash light to illuminate spiders eyes on trees out of the back yard and shoot them at night. I also try to shoot flys in the daytime if they are close enough and can stay still. Plenty of little lizards at distance too. Squirrels. You name it. Taken possums. Coons. Etc. The most fun are the small targets and you really need to know your wind. No one can hear the shots and I don't have to worry about anything. Shooting one inch circle spinners and just small targets in general have improved my centerfire rifle skills.
     
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    Well, I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I have a .223 trainer barrel for my backup match gun and I put about 250rds/week through it. My reloads (75gr BTHP, 25.0gr of Varget, CCI400 in Remington brass) cost me less than $0.40CAD (which is about $0.30USD or so). The gun happily puts 5rds into .5 Moa at 100 and I mostly do positional practice with it on 1-1.5 moa targets 300 yards and in. I also have no problems taking it out to 760 yards and sometimes even 830 (sometimes hard to spot splash). I'll also shoot about 100 rds of .308/week and only spin on my 6mm barrels for matches. I'm also quite lucky in that the range is 10 minutes from my house and my private spot (with steel from 200-1500) is another 10 minutes away and I drive by both spots on the way to and from work every day.

    I just got a new CZ 455 a few weeks back and it's still sitting in the box...
     
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    dgheriani said:
    Well, I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I have a .223 trainer barrel for my backup match gun and I put about 250rds/week through it. My reloads (75gr BTHP, 25.0gr of Varget, CCI400 in Remington brass) cost me less than $0.40CAD (which is about $0.30USD or so). The gun happily puts 5rds into .5 Moa at 100 and I mostly do positional practice with it on 1-1.5 moa targets 300 yards and in. I also have no problems taking it out to 760 yards and sometimes even 830 (sometimes hard to spot splash). I'll also shoot about 100 rds of .308/week and only spin on my 6mm barrels for matches. I'm also quite lucky in that the range is 10 minutes from my house and my private spot (with steel from 200-1500) is another 10 minutes away and I drive by both spots on the way to and from work every day.

    I just got a new CZ 455 a few weeks back and it's still sitting in the box...
    Click to expand...

    You could get all that from a .22 without replacing barrels and still save $0.20 then.

    Obviously I’d you are switching barrels on your current rifle, then you’d have to factor that into the initial startup costs of a vudoo.
     
    I’m all for shooting the .223 if you like it.

    My argument is you don’t get anything out of it that you can’t get out of a .22 and .308 trainer setup.
     
    Hello, and welcome to 10 years ago :p

    But yeah, my CZ455 comes out with me almost every time I go to practice at my 'range'. Great for warm ups and to really get you paying attention to the wind. I usually do 1 or 2 5 shot groups and then dot drills for a while. Then I have spinners set up a few spots all the way to almost 300 yards. If I'm not nailing the spinners 4/5 times each string I'm annoyed; primarily use this one: https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0001246322/qualifier-rimfire-spinner-target

    Middle (standard) and small (really pushing it) for out to 200, further I shoot the bigger one standard and the middle.

    Then I'll start doing UKD on them as I'll pick up my stuff and move around.

    Makes a difference as it seems like you're cheating when shooting a Mk12 out to 700 afterwards.


    eta - Only difference is I use Lapua Center X or Midas so the cost savings isn't as much.
     
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    Dthomas3523 said:
    I’m all for shooting the .223 if you like it.

    My argument is you don’t get anything out of it that you can’t get out of a .22 and .308 trainer setup.
    Click to expand...

    I do find it to be closer to shooting my 6 creed, recoil-wise (neither recoil much, to be honest) and I can hold and hit the same size targets with both with the added effect of the wind only being real noticeable at 400+ yards. Considering that I have the range to play with, it just makes sense to me to shoot the .223. I'll sort out the .22 and bring it out after this weekend's match, I imagine but the .223 is always in my truck.
     
    dgheriani said:
    I do find it to be closer to shooting my 6 creed, recoil-wise (neither recoil much, to be honest) and I can hold and hit the same size targets with both with the added effect of the wind only being real noticeable at 400+ yards. Considering that I have the range to play with, it just makes sense to me to shoot the .223. I'll sort out the .22 and bring it out after this weekend's match, I imagine but the .223 is always in my truck.
    Click to expand...

    Point of shooting a .308 is to punish you for bad position.

    Light recoiling .223 and 6mm make us lazy and develop bad habits if we aren’t careful.

    That’s another reason why I find .223 to not be essential for training.

    If I’m not looking for recoil training, I’d rather have virtually no recoil (.22) so I can focus on non recoil related training.
     
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    while i am closer to getting a cz 457 mtr around 800 , the voodo will have to remain on my when I win the lottery list of firearms unless they drastically fall in price . They do look nice .
     
    acudaowner said:
    while i am closer to getting a cz 457 mtr around 800 , the voodo will have to remain on my when I win the lottery list of firearms unless they drastically fall in price . They do look nice .
    Click to expand...

    Do you have a chassis you can drop the vudoo in, or swap it out of your main rifle?

    If so, you’re only looking at $1k price difference.

    Takes about 5 min to swap a chassis and optic onto a vudoo. Takes about 5 min to zero it at 25yds.

    Not trying to dictate your budget. But most people don’t realize how well within their means a vudoo is.
     
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    I’ll back that last comment from DT.
    The buy once,cry once is a theory that took a lot of years buying & selling till I got what I wanted,for it to sink in.
    Why not buy the barrelled action now & suck up the tedious job of swapping stocks & scopes,whilst saving for another stock & scope?
    Your call,but i’ve done it before& am actually doing it again with another build.
     
    Macca said:
    I’ll back that last comment from DT.
    The buy once,cry once is a theory that took a lot of years buying & selling till I got what I wanted,for it to sink in.
    Why not buy the barrelled action now & suck up the tedious job of swapping stocks & scopes,whilst saving for another stock & scope?
    Your call,but i’ve done it before& am actually doing it again with another build.
    Click to expand...

    I don’t like having to do it. But for me, it’s literally 6bolts.

    2 action bolts and 4 spuhr mount bolts.

    I do it a lot because I have 2 zcomps and then like 4/5 chassis/stocks that are all different. I like some variety and don’t have any interest in having like 12 dedicated rigs.
     
    A lot of our members here will probably think I'm an old fuddy-duddy for saying this, but I just have a heckuva lot of fun shooting my .22s - from CZ457 MTR to CLE dedicated 22RF upper to jelrod-converted 40XB to V-22s to Anschutz 2011. I've got a 100yd smallbore range just a 1/4mi west of the house, and it's sooo easy to grab one or more of the .22s, a few boxes of SK or Lapua ammo, and maybe some paper targets (steel stays out on the range).

    I built myself a nice 223AI on a trued M700 w/PTG custom bolt, 1-7tw Krieger sendero, TT primary trigger, Athlon Ares BTR scope on a 20 MOA rail, all in a McM adjustable A5 stock. I've also got a 1000yd range 1-1/2mi from the house, though there are some rough trails leading to it. That 223AI has been sitting in the closet for long enough that I'm not sure when I shot it last, while the .22s get pulled out multiple times per week. It's been almost a year since the last time I shot a CF tactical rifle match, but less than a month since the last .22RF PR match I shot. Yep - old fuddy-duddy - check my profile, I'm 67yrs old, and if something doesn't trip my fun meter as much as it used to, I don't get around to doing it as often as things that are more fun.
     
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    Building a Vudoo with the same stock/scope/trigger/bipod as my 6.5CM has given me the ability to practice positional and props much more cost-effectively, and everything "feels" the same. I don't really worry (all that much) when I shoot 200 rounds in a day on my Vudoo. I would think long and hard about shooting 200 6.5 rounds in one day for "practice."

    That, and the NRL22 matches are very enjoyable as well.
     
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    I’ve cut back to 3 dedicated rigs,2 R700’s & a V22.
    All set up the same,KRG Bravo’s,Timney Calvin Elite’s,20 MOA rails,Spuhr mounts.
    Leupold Mk 6 3-18 for the V22,Leupold Mk 5 5-25 for the BR.
    Just tossing up for another Mk 5 or a S&B for the PRC,but in the meantime the Mk 5 will have to pull double duty.
    I’ve got it in to my head that muscle memory & optics cohesion should work.
    Of course a little part of it is that having similar looking rifles shouldn’t raise any eyebrows from she who must be obeyed when pulling them out of the safe.
     
    Dthomas3523 said:
    You could get all that from a .22 without replacing barrels and still save $0.20 then.

    Obviously I’d you are switching barrels on your current rifle, then you’d have to factor that into the initial startup costs of a vudoo.
    Click to expand...

    In the example above if you purchased Apparition with a KRG Bravo Chassis would be $2430. At $0.20 savings per would be $50 per week or an ROI of 48.6 weeks, not terrible. This does not account for the cost of glass, etc. Dthomas3523 thanks for this thread, this looks like a great alternative. My wife does not care how many guns I buy. But I’ll bet there are a lot of guys on here will be using this data as leverage for their next purchase. Something like...”Honey....you won’t believe what I just found. A gun that saves us money....so much so that we really can’t afford not to buy it.” Good luck with that guys :)
     
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    TriggerHappy0125 said:
    In the example above if you purchased Apparition with a KRG Bravo Chassis would be $2430. At $0.20 savings per would be $50 per week or an ROI of 48.6 weeks, not terrible. This does not account for the cost of glass, etc. Dthomas3523 thanks for this thread, this looks like a great alternative. My wife does not care how many guns I buy. But I’ll bet there are a lot of guys on here will be using this data as leverage for their next purchase. Something like...”Honey....you won’t believe what I just found. A gun that saves us money....so much so that we really can’t afford not to buy it.” Good luck with that guys :)
    Click to expand...

    There’s definitely going to be some variations in personal budgets.

    As I mentioned above, if you can’t afford an entirely new rig, it takes me 6 bolts and 5-10min to swap the chassis and optic from centerfire to vudoo. This is also a huge plus/money saving perk of the vudoo.

    One of the biggest reasons we don’t get to the range as much as we’d like is ammo costs. A good .22 trainer (doesn’t have to be a vudoo) alleviates this burden.

    I don’t want to say you can get rid of dryfire practice, but a .22 is damn near dryfire with a real world result.
     
    both side of the camp on this one

    for wind and trigger i am with DT 100%.

    but like some else said my position is getting lazy because there is no recoil and bad shots

    my vudoo is in a AX chassis with a atlas and kahles 10-50 on it (soon to be a march 10-60HM if i actually change it)

    its so heavy that i can almost free recoil it, which is the exact opposite of how i usually shoot

    i got so used to shooting my AX in 260 and 6br that my AXMC in 300 win mag felt like a cannon, i had to get back on the wagon for that one

    now my 6mm feels like a cannon compared to my 22lr, i was actually startled. was actually pretty funny

    real problem is i find myself grabbing the vudoo almost every time i hit the range

    it just seems "easier" to hit the range even though its the same weight and size

    might just be that im getting back into shooting groups more and more, especially with the kids around

    jurys still out lol
     
    brianf said:
    both side of the camp on this one

    for wind and trigger i am with DT 100%.

    but like some else said my position is getting lazy because there is no recoil and bad shots

    my vudoo is in a AX chassis with a atlas and kahles 10-50 on it (soon to be a march 10-60HM if i actually change it)

    its so heavy that i can almost free recoil it, which is the exact opposite of how i usually shoot

    i got so used to shooting my AX in 260 and 6br that my AXMC in 300 win mag felt like a cannon, i had to get back on the wagon for that one

    now my 6mm feels like a cannon compared to my 22lr, i was actually startled. was actually pretty funny

    real problem is i find myself grabbing the vudoo almost every time i hit the range

    it just seems "easier" to hit the range even though its the same weight and size

    might just be that im getting back into shooting groups more and more, especially with the kids around

    jurys still out lol
    Click to expand...

    This is basically my point. The .223 isn’t going to do anything the .22 doesn’t. It costs more to shoot, the barrel will eventually burn out, and it doesn’t exploit your weaknesses through recoil.

    Shoot the .22 70-80% of the time, then screw a .308 or the .260 on your AX for the other 20-30% of the time to show you where your positional weaknesses are.

    After all, the entire concept behind a .223 trainer was to cut costs and practice wind. This is just the next logical evolution now that a .22 will fit in 700 pattern chassis and triggers.
     
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    I have a 200 yard range at my place with a few practice barricades set up on it. My current training regimen is 2 mags thru the vudoo to work on things such as getting in and out position, trying different ways to build stable positions and such. Then a mag thru my dasher on the clock trying what I tested in the vudoo to see how it actually works under match conditions. So far it has done wonders for my shooting as I’m still new to this game. I still have a 20 inch 308 I can get out when I feel like I’m getting sloppy and need some recoil.
     
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