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Does the Bighorn TL3 have the lightest bolt lift?

SuperSneakySniper

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 16, 2017
1,032
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Hey guys, just a random thought really.

I was comparing my bolt action bolt lifts (trued remmy vs TL3 vs Tikka) to see how they cpmpared.

Far far far from a scientific test. I basically just took my spring operated trigger pull scale and lifted the bolt, cocking them each, trying to place the gauge the same distance/spot on the knob.

I found my 700 pulling at an average of 7 pounds. Tikka at 6.5 and the TL3 at well under 4 pounds!

Now i did have a Defiance, but i dont have it with me. I remember it feeling pretty similair/smooth like the TL3.

It just got me thinkin' which actions have the lightest bolt lifts. Anyone know what the Defiance lifts at?
 
4 pounds would be nice. My tikka felt light, but the lighter the better....
 
Bighorns in house testing of various actions showed that theirs was the lightest, per a conversation I had wth them. I tend to agree. I dont own anything that is that light on cocking.
 
I only have my SR3 but i thought it felt pretty similar to my Tempest, which i consider light. Maybe it's because it wasn't bolted in anything that i didn't recognize how light it was.
 
The tempest is pretty light. I'd like to see where a surgeon ranks; I had a 1086 that was extremely light/smooth.
 
I think that's the main thing I like about the Bighorns, and the only thing I don't like about the Mausingfield, which has a harder than needs be bolt lift.
 
Isn't the lift off related to the strength of the firing pin spring? Are the Bighorns using springs that are not as stiff?

 
You're measuring a torque, not a force. It will change considerably with where you place the scale along the length of the bolt handle, and different actions with different length bolt handles will not be apples to apples unless you pick a specific length, or convert it to in-lb or ft-lb (hopefully doesn't require it be in ft-lb lol...)

Several things at play here... Geometry of the primary extraction cams, geometry, hardness, lubrication of the cocking piece/bolt body interface, firing pin spring strength, sear engagement locations...

Can change significantly between two of the same actions. Cerakote, DLC, dry, wet, etc... all going to make a pretty big difference. That said, a DLC'd ARC M5 is the best thing I've ever felt. Customs will almost always feel better/lighter than a factory action, though. Besides maybe a M1898 Krag.
 
You're measuring a torque, not a force. It will change considerably with where you place the scale along the length of the bolt handle, and different actions with different length bolt handles will not be apples to apples unless you pick a specific length, or convert it to in-lb or ft-lb (hopefully doesn't require it be in ft-lb lol...)

Yep, testing methodology is suspect here.
 
Bighorn is not that light. Play with a BR rifle that has a timed trigger (Panda/Borden/Etc). I will tell you that Bighorns get better over time. By your 3rd barrel it is much smoother.
 
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I think that's the main thing I like about the Bighorns, and the only thing I don't like about the Mausingfield, which has a harder than needs be bolt lift.



Not exactly, it has more to do with where/when the work gets done. If I may:

On a 90* turn bolt action the bolt rotates from zero (horizontal out of battery position) to 90* (vertical in battery position). This trend to try and sell folks on the "less is more/better" thing in regards to bolt rotation is mumbo jumbo marketing crap imo. It's really as simple as put bolt in and take bolt out. The start and end point forms a right angle. -It reminds me of shopping for a hot rod camshaft. The "numbers" are often crap as its a marketing ploy.

Why this starts to matter: Within the given rotation a certain amount of work needs to be done. Most (not all, but most) center action designs hover around .225" to .250" of striker and striker spring compression. This is the linear distance generally required to accelerate the striker to sufficient velocity and kinetic energy to deliver a predictable and solid strike on the primer.

Springs are pretty consistent in rate of coils per inch, outside diameter, and wire gauge, heat treatment, etc. . .from one manufacturer to another. It's not until you go off the reservation with something like an RPA Quadlock action using Belleville washers for control of the striker that stuff really changes and becomes a bit more interesting.
-Two lug guns aren't all the far apart from one another.

So, why does one feel better/different than another? I would focus more on "different" than "better." This will explain why/how:
  • Bolt handle length. As Archimedes stated, "Give me a lever long enough and I'll lift the world."
  • Better attention paid to ensure cocking cam geometry is truly tangent to one another. -The aftermarket guys have this challenge solved. They all use good tools and understand them.
  • Proper steel selection and heat treatment. Again, this is pretty much covered.
  • Deciding where/when to do the work. I saved this for last because it's the biggest variance.
1. Partial cock on close, partial cock on open. AKA the 50/50 bolt design. You do 50% of the work coming up and the remaining 50% is taken care of when you lock it back up. How is this possible? You play around with the positioning of the cocking cam in relation to when/where it engages the lugs up front and the transfer bar of the trigger. If I engage the trigger's transfer bar prior to the lugs obtaining a purchase on the lug abutment flats, I have a partial cock on close type action. The lugs "pull" the bolt forward, causing the spring to be further compressed as you do so. You can easily demonstrate this with an M700. The "button" sticking out the ass end of the shroud is exposed more as you roll into battery.

2. Cock on open only. AKA the 105/-5 setup. You lift the bolt and you compress the fire control 105%. You drop the bolt down and it falls 5% as it locks up and engages the trigger. Here the cocking cam timing is retarded so that bolt lugs can bite onto the flats just prior to the fire control coming under load. Point is, all the work gets done coming up. Down is butter. So, do you wanna feel it split in half or all at once? That is what this boils down to.


It's a personal choice of one over the other. Both offer a compelling argument. Bench guys tend to favor a 105/-5 design. Those used to M700 designs are acclimated to the 50/50 so it becomes the bench standard for comparison of others. I like a 105/-5 because the shear load on the leading edges of the lugs is reduced. They aren't "climbing" the ramps. The risk of galling is reduced and I like the smoother feel it delivers when locking the gun up into battery.

It's purely a personal choice. There is no right/wrong answer here.

We've not even gone into the kinky side of this where acceleration rates, striker mass, energy delivery to the primer, and inertia (follow through) is considered to ensure were not bouncing the striker and causing fluctuations. This is just about operating principle. My only point in sharing this is that maybe a few folks can understand a little better how some of this stuff actually works.

Enjoy your weekend.

C.
 
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Not exactly, it has more to do with where/when the work gets done. If I may:

On a 90* turn bolt action the bolt rotates from zero (horizontal out of battery position) to 90* (vertical in battery position). This trend to try and sell folks on the "less is more/better" thing in regards to bolt rotation is mumbo jumbo marketing crap imo. It's really as simple as put bolt in and take bolt out. The start and end point forms a right angle. -It reminds me of shopping for a hot rod camshaft. The "numbers" are often crap as its a marketing ploy.

Why this starts to matter: Within the given rotation a certain amount of work needs to be done. Most (not all, but most) center action designs hover around .225" to .250" of striker and striker spring compression. This is the linear distance generally required to accelerate the striker to sufficient velocity and kinetic energy to deliver a predictable and solid strike on the primer.

Springs are pretty consistent in rate of coils per inch, outside diameter, and wire gauge, heat treatment, etc. . .from one manufacturer to another. It's not until you go off the reservation with something like an RPA Quadlock action using Belleville washers for control of the striker that stuff really changes and becomes a bit more interesting.
-Two lug guns aren't all the far apart from one another.

So, why does one feel better/different than another? I would focus more on "different" than "better." This will explain why/how:
  • Bolt handle length. As Archimedes stated, "Give me a lever long enough and I'll lift the world."
  • Better attention paid to ensure cocking cam geometry is truly tangent to one another. -The aftermarket guys have this challenge solved. They all use good tools and understand them.
  • Proper steel selection and heat treatment. Again, this is pretty much covered.
  • Deciding where/when to do the work. I saved this for last because it's the biggest variance.
1. Partial cock on close, partial cock on open. AKA the 50/50 bolt design. You do 50% of the work coming up and the remaining 50% is taken care of when you lock it back up. How is this possible? You play around with the positioning of the cocking cam in relation to when/where it engages the lugs up front and the transfer bar of the trigger. If I engage the trigger's transfer bar prior to the lugs obtaining a purchase on the lug abutment flats, I have a partial cock on close type action. The lugs "pull" the bolt forward, causing the spring to be further compressed as you do so. You can easily demonstrate this with an M700. The "button" sticking out the ass end of the shroud is exposed more as you roll into battery.

2. Cock on open only. AKA the 105/-5 setup. You lift the bolt and you compress the fire control 105%. You drop the bolt down and it falls 5% as it locks up and engages the trigger. Here the cocking cam timing is retarded so that bolt lugs can bite onto the flats just prior to the fire control coming under load. Point is, all the work gets done coming up. Down is butter. So, do you wanna feel it split in half or all at once? That is what this boils down to.


It's a personal choice of one over the other. Both offer a compelling argument. Bench guys tend to favor a 105/-5 design. Those used to M700 designs are acclimated to the 50/50 so it becomes the bench standard for comparison of others. I like a 105/-5 because the shear load on the leading edges of the lugs is reduced. They aren't "climbing" the ramps. The risk of galling is reduced and I like the smoother feel it delivers when locking the gun up into battery.

It's purely a personal choice. There is no right/wrong answer here.

We've not even gone into the kinky side of this where acceleration rates, striker mass, energy delivery to the primer, and inertia (follow through) is considered to ensure were not bouncing the striker and causing fluctuations. This is just about operating principle. My only point in sharing this is that maybe a few folks can understand a little better how some of this stuff actually works.

Enjoy your weekend.

C.

Thanks for the explanation.

So if my Mausingfield is 50/50 can it be converted to 105/5?

How about tuning it if it is 50/50? I have a Timney Calvin elite single stage and a friend has a jewel in his Mausingfield, his is a little hard to open but mine takes a bit more force to open. I polished the cocking surface near the rear of the bolt where it rides the nub when cocking on the firing pin assembly and used grease which helped but I'd prefer the action easier and smoother still.
 
I love reading all of Chad' posts...it's like watching an episode of 'How it's Made'!!! Keep on educating, your passion is obvious, and well appreciated!
 
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Thanks for the explanation.

So if my Mausingfield is 50/50 can it be converted to 105/5?

How about tuning it if it is 50/50? I have a Timney Calvin elite single stage and a friend has a jewel in his Mausingfield, his is a little hard to open but mine takes a bit more force to open. I polished the cocking surface near the rear of the bolt where it rides the nub when cocking on the firing pin assembly and used grease which helped but I'd prefer the action easier and smoother still.

You'd just need to buy a new bolt from ARC. I watched a vid not long ago where he said they were'nt doing the 50/50 bolt any more, and all future bolts would be the 105/5.
 
You'd just need to buy a new bolt from ARC. I watched a vid not long ago where he said they were'nt doing the 50/50 bolt any more, and all future bolts would be the 105/5.

Okay, thanks for mentioning that. That would be more than I want to spend.

After reading Chad's post again I had it backwards anyway. " You lift the bolt and you compress the fire control 105%." I probably have the 105/5 then. I shouldn't even post when tired.

Fantasy action would be a centerfire Fortner biathlon in 6 Dasher. Wouldn't that be awesome!



 
Okay, thanks for mentioning that. That would be more than I want to spend.

After reading Chad's post again I had it backwards anyway. " You lift the bolt and you compress the fire control 105%." I probably have the 105/5 then. I shouldn't even post when tired.

Fantasy action would be a centerfire Fortner biathlon in 6 Dasher. Wouldn't that be awesome!


Hell ya that would be awesome. Not sure any of us would wanna pay what that would cost though. Ive almost purchased an anshutz with the fortner a few times. Pussed out each time. Some day.




 
Lone Peak actions have ridiculously light bolt lift. Bighorn isn't even in the running by comparison. BAT and other benchrest style actions can certainly compete, but Lone Peak's Fuzion is certainly one of the very best I've felt.
 
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I can't wait for Travis at TS Customs to finish my build.Fusion Ti action,Game Scout stock and Benchmark #4 barrel in 223 AI.
 
My TL3 is really light feels like half of my defiance
and a third of my remys. Absolutely love it.
 
My TL3 is really light feels like half of my defiance
and a third of my remys. Absolutely love it.

Ah, interesting. I was wondering how it compared to the Defiance. I had a slight feeling the TL3 was a little lighter, but I couldn't say for sure because I didn't have them side by side. Either way, while I suppose the TL3 may be lighter, I do remember them both being just as smooth.
TY for the comparison!
 
Hell ya that would be awesome. Not sure any of us would wanna pay what that would cost though. Ive almost purchased an anshutz with the fortner a few times. Pussed out each time. Some day.

A cf Fortner is Heym SR30. The SR30 action is made by Fortner.

The SR30 is a LA and has forward locking. It also has some safetyfeatures in the handle that "slows things down".

Im looking at a SR30 now to see if it is vieable to slick up the bolt handle safety stuff, reduce bolt travel, fit new mags and chamber for 6mmbr.
 
A cf Fortner is Heym SR30. The SR30 action is made by Fortner.

The SR30 is a LA and has forward locking. It also has some safetyfeatures in the handle that "slows things down".

Im looking at a SR30 now to see if it is vieable to slick up the bolt handle safety stuff, reduce bolt travel, fit new mags and chamber for 6mmbr.


I remember you mentioning that before. I looked into the SR30 but it's not quite what I had in mind. But please create a thread when you start your project because it's a good idea.

I've got a old Sako Finnwolf lever rifle. What I like about it is it has an assisted opening feature that makes the action fly back to the rear. It speeds up the action quite a bit.

Part of the reason I would want 6br based cases is to have a short throw to mimic the rimfire 1827's throw as much as possible and I want to push forward with my thumb to close the action as well. Throw in assisted opening,10 round mags, the normal precision accoutrements, and you'd have IMO "the" dominant tactical rifle action design.

I went to a 22 tactical match a couple years ago where the stages favored speed in awkward positions. I flew through those stages finishing them all whereas the bolt guys had to sit up to cock their rifles causing many of them to run out the clock. Basically I won the match solely because I had my 1827F. There were guys with 10-22's but I think they lacked the accuracy to hit the small targets every time or at least it seemed so by watching them, kinda like the AR guys in tactical matches.
 
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Steve123:

Take a hard look at the old Schmidt Rubin 1911 with new mag and reduced bolt travel :)

The fastest bolt actions are rear locking sa actions. Colt/Sauer 80/90 and Steyr SSG69. Bolt travel in these are shorter than a miniature action, Sako Vixen, in 222.

To build the fastest handling bolt i would start with a SSG69 P4 K who has a threaded action and fit a 6mmbr barrel. Then I would fit other mags. There are bottom metal on the market for AISC mags. These mags has to be converted to fit 6mmbr. Then the bolt travel can be reduced to less than 3"/75mm. Add a 60deg bolt lift and a very fast lock time, like Rem788, and you have a extremely fast, very forgiving and easy shooting rifle. The easy route is to fit a 6xc or 6,5cm barrel and start with factory polymer mags to get the feel of it. I see the old SSG69 as a flawed design that still can win competitions due to excellent handling qualities. An analogy; Lotus (loads of trouble usually serous) has won a lot of Formula 1 champs, Porsche has never won in F1 and they have tried.. :)

PS: The are a very few Steyr UIT rifles out there. These are SSG69 actions solid top, without millings for scopemounts, and 10 shot double stack/feeding steel mags. I've tested one of these many years ago. It's the "fastest" 308 I've ever tried. If any full bore rifle can beat the mad minute record, this is it. Here's a UIT with rear sight rail removed and scope fitted:

EC1C1DA24A63163D0948E424C96019F3.jpg
 

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Lone Peak actions have ridiculously light bolt lift. Bighorn isn't even in the running by comparison. BAT and other benchrest style actions can certainly compete, but Lone Peak's Fuzion is certainly one of the very best I've felt.

This.. no comparison. I thought my TL3 was great when I picked it up from Travis.. then he let me play with a couple of his match rifles with LP's. I couldn't believe the difference.
 
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This.. no comparison. I thought my TL3 was great when I picked it up from Travis.. then he let me play with a couple of his match rifles with LP's. I couldn't believe the difference.

Huh. I'm curious, as I've never really looked at LP actions before. How do they fare in tactical matches, in "adverse" conditions etc?