- Thread starter unclemoak
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Appreciate it. I’m going to get back to working on my 308 brass. I have so much, and it’s so cheap around here. I was worried about getting into the shoulders when turning the necks. I’ll have to adjust the bump. I have so many shell holders for this, and have found that they’re not all quite the same. I’ll have to take some measurements, and experiment a little.
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Do you expand with the 8.6 die, and if you don’t mind me asking what brand die. I’ve been looking into getting a K&M expanding die, and neck turner.
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.013 is definitely the magic number. I’m planning to shoot some of my converted 308 rounds this weekend. Sadly I went into the shoulder on all of them
Looks like I’m going to grab a set of Hornady dies. Right now I’m using a Lee set, and I’m not a fan of the small ring it occasionally leaves on my match kings! I also had to tighten the hell out of my expander. The necks coming off in the chamber was my worry as well. May be best to scrap them as a learning experience, and avoid having to remove one from the barrel
. With the KM kit you can go two ways. You can get the expander and use the standard pilot size or if you use their custom pilot negative .050 then you use your own dies. I have the second one but it doesn’t always work because it’s still tight with certain brass brands so I’d order their negative .060 or .055 pilot. Get the 33degree cutter and that kisses the neck and shoulder junction and looks seem less.Appreciate it. I’m going to get back to working on my 308 brass. I have so much, and it’s so cheap around here. I was worried about getting into the shoulders when turning the necks. I’ll have to adjust the bump. I have so many shell holders for this, and have found that they’re not all quite the same. I’ll have to take some measurements, and experiment a little.
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Do you expand with the 8.6 die, and if you don’t mind me asking what brand die. I’ve been looking into getting a K&M expanding die, and neck turner.
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.013 is definitely the magic number. I’m planning to shoot some of my converted 308 rounds this weekend. Sadly I went into the shoulder on all of them
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I like the idea I getting the negative pilot. How do I go about that. On their site I only see the 3 standard ones. The cutting, carbide, and steel.
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That’s the issue I have with my Hornady neck turner. The brass after sizing is near impossible to get onto the pilot. That’s why I was teaming to .340 then neck turning, and going into a Lee sizing die with the expander removed
. On the main site, hover over Neck Tools and a drop-down will appear. Click on Neck Tools and Accessories, then click on Neck Turning Pilot - sized for bullet tension. It’s there. I orders the .050 and it’s still slightly tight sometimes with federal, Winchester, and Peterson’s.I like the idea I getting the negative pilot. How do I go about that. On their site I only see the 3 standard ones. The cutting, carbide, and steel.
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That’s the issue I have with my Hornady neck turner. The brass after sizing is near impossible to get onto the pilot. That’s why I was teaming to .340 then neck turning, and going into a Lee sizing die with the expander removed
You will have to click on the blue underlined “for custom diameters, please email to order.” That’s just above the caliber and bullet tension selection boxes.
Thanks. I’ll post an update after I get mine. I’m going to order both, and an expanding die from them. I’m 99% sure I want the V2-2.
Thanks again I really appreciate all the advice!
Oh almost forgot to mention. If you do order the neck turner and power adapter. Definitely get the ergo holder, it’ll save your hands. Also get the power grip but make sure when you tighten the set screw your either really tighten it down or dimple the power adapter where the set screw snugs up against to keep the power grip from loosening.
I was looking at the ergo holder. All in all even with the price of all the K&M stuff if I’m able to convert $0.10 brass to 8.6 plus not have headstamps it will be well worth it!
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I’m really glad I found SnipersHide. Thank you again!
Lake City 308. I made a bunch using Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass, and they work great. However considering the price difference I’d like to use my bulk 308 brass laying around.
I’m assuming because it’s thicker brass it’ll be better for subsonics.
Yet another fallacy. The difference in powder capacity isn't enough to have any significant impact. I've been down that road with many different subsonic cartridges over the years, and it's never proven to have any real benefit. You may have to adjust the charge weight by a few tenths of a grain, but the difference in consistency from case weight (even extremes like the heavies 7.62 mil brass vs Winchester 308) is down in the weeds compared to other factors like neck tension, jump to lands, primer choice, etc.
dnchrist
Are you thinking that thicker brass means less capacity, which means better powder fill with less powder, which means consistant POI shooting?
There are other factors that have an influence but for the 8.6 Blackout, it matters because for example with like 14.5gr to 16.5gr of H110 (depending on bullet weight and barrel length you’re loading for ie 12” or 16” whatever it is) there’s not nearly enough case fill. You’re getting approximately 70% - 80% case fill and the closer to a more complete case fill the more consistent the loads in that particular cartridge will be…granted, all the other things like neck tension, brass weight consistency, and other factors are consistent. I get smaller standard deviations and extreme spreads with a more complete case fill is all.
Are you thinking that thicker brass means less capacity, which means better powder fill with less powder, which means consistant POI shooting?
There are other factors that have an influence but for the 8.6 Blackout, it matters because for example with like 14.5gr to 16.5gr of H110 (depending on bullet weight and barrel length you’re loading for ie 12” or 16” whatever it is) there’s not nearly enough case fill. You’re getting approximately 70% - 80% case fill and the closer to a more complete case fill the more consistent the loads in that particular cartridge will be…granted, all the other things like neck tension, brass weight consistency, and other factors are consistent. I get smaller standard deviations and extreme spreads with a more complete case fill is all.
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That's basically proof of what I just said. You're seeing way less than 1 fps difference in ES, but think it's significant? That's pretty much the same discussion as worrying about b.c. for 200 yard shots. I never said there was no difference in either one, I said these are not significant factors.
Some people have trouble separating technical minutiae from significant factors in reality. It's called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Don't worry about trying to use the heaviest headstamps to improve consistency. Use whatever brass is available to you that has consistent weights (whatever that weight may be, light or heavy) and forms well, and put your focus on consistent forming, annealing, and neck turning. Those are things that actually show significant improvement. The 8.6 Blk is not unique or special in this regard; the same considerations apply to forming 8.6 as to a host of other wildcats used for subsonic loads.
Some people have trouble separating technical minutiae from significant factors in reality. It's called "can't see the forest for the trees".
Don't worry about trying to use the heaviest headstamps to improve consistency. Use whatever brass is available to you that has consistent weights (whatever that weight may be, light or heavy) and forms well, and put your focus on consistent forming, annealing, and neck turning. Those are things that actually show significant improvement. The 8.6 Blk is not unique or special in this regard; the same considerations apply to forming 8.6 as to a host of other wildcats used for subsonic loads.
I’m not trying to improve anything by using LC308 brass. I’m just trying to avoid paying $1 per case, and use all the brass I have laying around
The attached pics aren’t an example of one method over the other or one brass brand over the other or the results of one over the other. I can include those. Those reflect around 13-15 fps spread. What I attached is how consistent these loads are with my method of brass prep and loading used...which proves my statement true especially for the 8.6 which is what we’re here for.
You talk as if you’re the only guy on here that knows anything about ballistics yet you’re the same guy who used the 45acp vs .338 as an example to an argument over ballistic coefficients not mattering in subsonics. The difference was big enough that it was noticeable. Stop with the condescending “another fallacy” talk because no one here actually cares about your opinions and quips . I doubt you’re here for the thread’s subject matter. And for you to have “proven your point” I would have had to not know what you were talking about…in other words, you didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know. If you don’t have anything constructive to add to this specific thread than I suggest you go elsewhere because they’re not handing out any awards here for your knowledge, opinions, or witty remarks.
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Get over yourself dude. I'm not acting condescending or like I'm the only one who knows anything here; you're just one of those people who can't handle someone else having a different opinion so you're trying to turn everything into an argument. It's not helpful to the thread topic or anyone else here. If you're such a big man, let it go instead of continually picking at it. I've ignored your insults so far because your behavior here is a reflection of you, not me.
And please quit trying to pretend I've said there are no differences in these things we're discussing. That's a straw man argument.
What I did say was that the differences aren't big enough to matter. Heavy brass vs light brass or high b.c. vs low b.c. are way way down the list of significance when we're talking about 200 yard subsonic loads. Heck just changing temperature conditions has more effect than either of those things with most of the powders we're using for subs. Both of those things ARE significant for full power high velocity loads, but that wasn't the discussion.
I’m not trying to improve anything by using LC308 brass. I’m just trying to avoid paying $1 per case, and use all the brass I have laying around
That's my reasoning too. I've used LC 7.62 brass for all sorts of .473" case head rounds, both standardized and wildcats. Even the 6.5 Creed back when it was hard to get brass for. (It was convenient for that one because the thick necks allowed me to turn them to just under the chamber neck size, although it did require a smaller powder charge than commercial brass.) LC is plentiful and consistent enough to be able to sort it and end up with a reasonable percentage of good cases for consistent loads.
You’re talking about ignoring insults as if you’re not taking part in the stone throwing…stop playing the victim. “Others opinions as you so state I have a problem with stop becoming opinions when they start including terms or statements like in posts #519, #521, and #533.
“Trajectory of a 230gr .45 Auto at 1,000 fps and a 300gr .338 at 1,000 fps are remarkably similar.
In other words, even though the .338 generally has higher b.c. values, for a subsonic cartridge it matters not at all“…your words not mine. Stop trying to back peddle and own up to what you put out. I don’t want to have to keep bringing up your posts to make a point…just stop talking down to others on these forums with your sarcastic little terms like “I’m sure that’s what a lot of people think but it’s not reality” and “I answered the question you actually asked, assuming you meant "cartridge" instead of "caliber" and just didn't know any better. My bad for thinking you were interested in a real discussion, instead of just arguing to defend your favorite caliber” and there’s plenty more…you’re not gaining my attention when you make statements like you have been. You give more importance to what you have to say over everyone else because you in fact can’t handle other’s opinions…stop projecting. my point is you get what you give. I’m done.
Please point out one spot where I called you names (as you did to me) or any other insult... It isn't there. The things in bold above are truth, not insults. You obviously took offense instead of thinking about whether they were accurate or not.
So in other words, you took offense because I said something you disagreed with. Then you got all snarky and angry because I talked about a different caliber than your favorite. Your snarky attitude was the start of all this; remember that. And BTW, maybe you don't realize that this board sends email notifications when someone posts a new comment - before you went back and edited them - so I've seen the things you actually said before you decided to tame them down for the forum. You spend a lot of time reacting in anger without thinking.
How about you let it go and we can get back to discussing the 8.6 Blk without you trying to turn everything I say into an argument. You know, like mature adults?
I moved on.
Please point out one spot where I called you names (as you did to me) or any other insult... It isn't there. The things in bold above are truth, not insults. You obviously took offense instead of thinking about whether they were accurate or not.
So in other words, you took offense because I said something you disagreed with. Then you got all snarky and angry because I talked about a different caliber than your favorite. Your snarky attitude was the start of all this; remember that. And BTW, maybe you don't realize that this board sends email notifications when someone posts a new comment - before you went back and edited them - so I've seen the things you actually said before you decided to tame them down for the forum. You spend a lot of time reacting in anger without thinking.
How about you let it go and we can get back to discussing the 8.6 Blk without you trying to turn everything I say into an argument. You know, like mature adults?
Moving on.
Back on track, I have a 1:6.5 twist barrel ordered and am looking forward to how it handles the heavies. Also play with some supers. Hopefully won’t gut my can like some have unfortunately experienced.
Back on track, I have a 1:6.5 twist barrel ordered and am looking forward to how it handles the heavies. Also play with some supers. Hopefully won’t gut my can like some have unfortunately experienced.
I would suspect it’s marketing hype. Both manufacturers at Mos-Tek and Maker agree that the 1:6.5 is plenty to stabilize even the 350gr Maker Rex. I will soon find out, it looks like I’ll be getting mine in sooner than Monday. It’s for a Sig Cross so it’s a little bit different but not much.
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I ordered a 7 twist 16.5" Bartlein for the 350gr Maker.
Very curious what powder you land on if you intend to shoot that bullet. CFEBLK seems like a decent option for a bolt gun subs. Trailboss is nowhere to be seen.
So far H110 has been good for me. I also used a1680 and IMR4227. I’m pretty sure all the 300 Blk powders are suitable. I prefer ball powders for easier metering. I don’t have CFEBLK but I’ve had good luck with that powder in 300 BLK.
Your 1:7 should be fine based on stability calculator and what Paul at Maker said.
Ok ladies and gentlemen…I have here, a Sig Cross outfitted with an 8.6 Blackout barrel. So far so good, it is a little less forgiving if you don’t bump shoulders and neck turn so your brass game has to be on point though. I have two barrels in testing at the moment…a Faxon 1:3 that’s been modified to work for the Sig Cross and a Mos-Tek 1:6.5 twist.
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Great job dredging up something that was already dropped by both parties, to tell me to drop it.
It's pathetic when people start treating their favorite cartridge or caliber like a religion; all logic and common sense goes up in smoke.
That's twice now you've defended a guy who got snarky and then flat out insulted me, several times, all for mentioning a different caliber and daring to disagree with him. You think that's justified, but responding to insults with some measured but pointed remarks to him insulted you? You're right that we're all allowed to have an opinion, but you're a class A hypocrite for acting like that doesn't go both ways.
Go kick rocks.
Has anyone tried 160gr Barnes TTSX loads? Or even 185gr Hornady CX?
Hello Hide, I have been following this thread for quite some time now. I too have gone down the dark road of 8.6 BLK. Since ammo is so scarce, I have also gone down the road of reloading. Might as well go all the way!!! The issue I am having is, the gun will not close the bolt all the way on the next round, or it will not close, from open lock, all the way on the first round. I took the barrel back out of the upper last night and found that the bolt will not rotate to lock with a round in the chamber, without a lot of force that is. I am using a Sheridan gauge, and all rounds slide in and back out just like they do in the chamber. I am shooting a DPMS AR-10 that originally had a .308 barrel in it. It shot flawlessly in that config. I contacted Faxon, and they said I could send the barrel back to them to check it out. Just wanted to see if someone had any thoughts before I go that route. Thanks.
Which target is which barrel? What distance, load etc? Come’on man!
I’ve seen this from quite a few people. Your brass neck wall thickness may be too thick (anything over .013”) and or your neck diameter may have expanded when seating the bullet beyond the .366” allowable cartridge print dimension. Your brass neck diameter after sizing should be no larger than .360”. Also it would be good to bump the shoulders back .002” +/- .0005”. I’ve found because the shoulders don’t have a defined corner you get these rounded shoulders that can create an issue when chambering. What brass are you using? I’ve used LC, Peterson’s, Hornady, FC, RP, and Winchester. ALL of them still require some level of neck turning but only the Hornady and RP that I know of, some can get away without doing it.
That’s the 1:6.5 at 80y indoor range. The red target was at 50y with same load but in the 1:3. Two separate days.Which target is which barrel? What distance, load etc? Come’on man!
snark·yGreat job dredging up something that was already dropped by both parties, to tell me to drop it.
It's pathetic when people start treating their favorite cartridge or caliber like a religion; all logic and common sense goes up in smoke.
That's twice now you've defended a guy who got snarky and then flat out insulted me, several times, all for mentioning a different caliber and daring to disagree with him. You think that's justified, but responding to insults with some measured but pointed remarks to him insulted you? You're right that we're all allowed to have an opinion, but you're a class A hypocrite for acting like that doesn't go both ways.
Go kick rocks.
/ˈsnärkē/
critical or mocking in an indirect or sarcastic way.
"snarky remarks"
I think you were guilty of that before I started on with you so please…stop playing the victim, follow your own advice and “be the bigger person and let it go” like you say.
Thanks for the info, and advice. I have a mixed bag of brass. I bought some off the internet. I have neck turned all that I have worked on. The Hornady is the only one I have that did not require turning. All the specs you listed are on par. I am hesitant to get into the shoulder, due to some having the case separate there! I was doing some checking and marked a few pieces of brass with black marker. I put them in the chamber and turned them back and forth. They all left marks where the shoulder meets the neck! So I believe that getting into the shoulder may be the ticket. I also checked the depth of different cases in the chamber, and found them as much as .025” difference. I am measuring off the end of the chamber to a straight edge across the top of the barrel. The brass seems to be very inconsistent. I am using Lee dies to do a final sizing after neck turning and aneling. Not sure why the depth is so different!?!
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.359 before loading.
Which 8.6 dies do you have? I have both the Hornady and the Lee’s. (long story) but I find that the Lee Factory Crimp die is excellent and it compliments the Hornady Sizer and Seater well. I like the Lee sizer but their expander is soft and when I use it to convert brass I’ve noticed that it has a lot of small rough surface scratches on the widest part of the expander. I’ve sent a few of their EZ Expanders to get nitride surface treatment to see if this helps harden enough to prevent this. If anyone’s interested I can get a group together to purchase these to send out additionally. The cost to doing 2 or 20 is the same so this would probably be a great solution for these.
I have a related question for you guys. I need to turn the necks on a bunch of brass, and was just going to order a mandrel for my Lyman neck turner, well come to find out the neck turner I have been using for the last 20 years is no longer made.... Does anyone know if there is another brand mandrel that will fit the Lyman turner? The tail of the mandrel where it is held in the turner is 0.185 diameter, and 0.425 long. If anyone could measure what they have so I can find new mandrels I would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Greg
Thanks,
Greg
Thank you, sir. I wish I would have done some research before I bought the brass. All of the rounds I have loaded pass the gauge test and slide all the way in and out. The Hornaday turning too has a cutter with the same angle as the shoulder taper. I am going to try bumping the necks a bit, and then checking the durability of them before loading. If that doesn't help, I am going to send the barrel back and have them look at it.
You can get the barrel throated from .366” to .368 and you’ll fine. Very little cost for that. The Gorilla factory brass is negative .005” - .006” from a go-gauge…You’d be fine bumping .003” - .004” if durable is a concern.
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I think for converting the LEE sizer is the best option because of the stronger expander ball. So I got in touch with H&M black nitride and they’re going to nitride several LEE sizer dies and I have 4 EZ expanders being nitrided as well. I can do
Yes true, i manufacture 8.6 for resale so i have to use a spray lube and i do large quantities of conversions. It’s common for me to do 500 - 600 cases in a day so the dies get used hard.
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Then you haven't tried brass juice yet. Its amazing! I think you’d like it.
New to this group and love all the information. Took me all day to get through 12 pages of great info. I am seeing lots of info on gas guns and just a little bit on bolt guns, especially shorter ones like my 12.5". I have built a list of load recipes based off all 12 pages in this thread and that has provided me with what I feel like is a good starting point for next steps. To date I have only shot Gorilla and then attempted to shoot Firehole Arms (I'll explain that later). The Gorilla performs great out of my rifle true MOA or better. Little bit about the gun and my experience
Project Gun: Savage model 10 youth 7-08 (my sons old rifle he grew out of). Mos-Tek 12.5" Savage Prefit Nut with 5/8x24 threading and an 11-degree crown. I have it sitting in an MDT LSS Chasis with an Arken EPL4 4-16 on it for now.
Experiences with different factory ammo:
Gorilla ammo has been great:
I started with the 300 SMK subs and I am getting 978fps with single digit SDs and very tight groups at 100
For hunting, I am using Gorilla 285 Fracturing subs. I am averaging 986fps and able to shoot just shy of 1 moa SDs were not as good as the SMK but for hunting out to 200 yards it does not matter.
Firehole Amrs:
I started with their 300 grain solid copper subs for barrels shorter than 16". 1st shot had significantly more recoil and was much louder than the 300 grain Gorilla. pulling the bolt back was tough and the primer popped a little and the base was flattened. I did not shoot those again that day
Next I shot the 338 grain fracturing and pretty much similar results only the primer completely fell out and unburnt powder was everywhere. did not shoot again that day
Took the rifle home and reverified the headspace with go no go gauges. Everything seemed fine but I went ahead and pulled the ejection pen/spring and extractor and checked head space again and still everything was in spec.
Back to the range with my Mangeto Speed v3. Both of the Firehole ammos were over 1150 fps and I had the exact same issue 1 flattened primer and one blown primer. I had to use a cleaning rod and block of wood to tap the spent fracturing round case out.
I ordered a Sheridan Case gauge and you can see from the picture that the Firehole ammo does not even come close to fitting.
Ok on to my questions:
1. I am loading Maker Rex 350 expanding in new Gorilla brass with federal LRP and h110. I am starting at 15.1 grains and going to 16.3. Does the collective think this is a good start for a bolt 12.5" gun?
2. I only have a little bit of H110 and A1680 but lots of CFE BLK. Does anyone have a good sub or super recipe to start with for CFE BLK
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Project Gun: Savage model 10 youth 7-08 (my sons old rifle he grew out of). Mos-Tek 12.5" Savage Prefit Nut with 5/8x24 threading and an 11-degree crown. I have it sitting in an MDT LSS Chasis with an Arken EPL4 4-16 on it for now.
Experiences with different factory ammo:
Gorilla ammo has been great:
I started with the 300 SMK subs and I am getting 978fps with single digit SDs and very tight groups at 100
For hunting, I am using Gorilla 285 Fracturing subs. I am averaging 986fps and able to shoot just shy of 1 moa SDs were not as good as the SMK but for hunting out to 200 yards it does not matter.
Firehole Amrs:
I started with their 300 grain solid copper subs for barrels shorter than 16". 1st shot had significantly more recoil and was much louder than the 300 grain Gorilla. pulling the bolt back was tough and the primer popped a little and the base was flattened. I did not shoot those again that day
Next I shot the 338 grain fracturing and pretty much similar results only the primer completely fell out and unburnt powder was everywhere. did not shoot again that day
Took the rifle home and reverified the headspace with go no go gauges. Everything seemed fine but I went ahead and pulled the ejection pen/spring and extractor and checked head space again and still everything was in spec.
Back to the range with my Mangeto Speed v3. Both of the Firehole ammos were over 1150 fps and I had the exact same issue 1 flattened primer and one blown primer. I had to use a cleaning rod and block of wood to tap the spent fracturing round case out.
I ordered a Sheridan Case gauge and you can see from the picture that the Firehole ammo does not even come close to fitting.
Ok on to my questions:
1. I am loading Maker Rex 350 expanding in new Gorilla brass with federal LRP and h110. I am starting at 15.1 grains and going to 16.3. Does the collective think this is a good start for a bolt 12.5" gun?
2. I only have a little bit of H110 and A1680 but lots of CFE BLK. Does anyone have a good sub or super recipe to start with for CFE BLK
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