ok gunsmiths whats the best way to true up a rem 700 for a varmint rig. Single point or in a jig? Remember if i go with a rem 700 it will only be used for coyotes. The chambering will be a 22-250AI with shilen match grade chrome moly barrel. Is the jig method good enough? I have discussed this topic before but it always intrests me. I guess im still undecided as to what method to have Jon do for me. Jon being the perfectionist he is, prefers single point, but he said he really cant compare because he hasn't ever used his jig to true one yet, so im leaving it up to you fellas. I have a 1968 rem 700 short action so hopefully its better than average already but probably not. I even thought about no even truing it at all but im past that idea. I will either have this action trued or im going to sell it and buy a custom, just not sure, what your opinions on truing a rem 700 with a jig? Lee
Gunsmithing rem 700 action truing method??
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Lots of opinions out there on this. I guess I am kinda simple in the head, as I cannot see one being much better than the other. IMO As long as you get the shoulder on your barrel, the face of the action, and the bolt face square to each other, you are GTG. I have shot too many great shooting rifles with crooked/untrued actions to put too much stock in the process.
Lots of opinions out there on this. I guess I am kinda simple in the head, as I cannot see one being much better than the other. IMO As long as you get the shoulder on your barrel, the face of the action, and the bolt face square to each other, you are GTG. I have shot too many great shooting rifles with crooked/untrued actions to put too much stock in the process.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
anyone else have an opinion? lee
anyone else have an opinion? lee
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many use the manson mandrel setup I think? </div></div>
Is that similar to this one or the Receiver Truing Kit that PTG sells? http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/reamers/action.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">many use the manson mandrel setup I think? </div></div>
Is that similar to this one or the Receiver Truing Kit that PTG sells? http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/reamers/action.htm
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
The one you have photed is for the bolt. It reams the bolt out larger so you can sleeve the bolt or use an oversize bolt. The facing tool cuts the action face and the threads within the action are also cut oversize while useing bushings to hold the bar throught the action then the cutter head and tap follow the bushinged bar to hold it on center. I agree with EDDIEBO as long as its true ive seen both ways shoot well and ive seen some with nothing done shoot lights out. You can even do it all and still might not shoot well but it does give it a better chance to do so.
The one you have photed is for the bolt. It reams the bolt out larger so you can sleeve the bolt or use an oversize bolt. The facing tool cuts the action face and the threads within the action are also cut oversize while useing bushings to hold the bar throught the action then the cutter head and tap follow the bushinged bar to hold it on center. I agree with EDDIEBO as long as its true ive seen both ways shoot well and ive seen some with nothing done shoot lights out. You can even do it all and still might not shoot well but it does give it a better chance to do so.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today.
Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
skeetlee, I have a Remington PSS that wears a 19'' Bartlein barrel. I had Bartlein handle the install, and it was not trued to the best of my knowledge.
I've shot it out to 1200meters at about 350ASL and 1100 yards at ~5600ASL. Both times I have had it out that far, it hits with boring reliability. When I did load development, it shot everything into little holes, some smaller than the rest. After being re-barreled, the rifle also shoots about 4MOA flatter than it did with the 26'' Remington barrel.
I don't think that you can go wrong with either set-up, but I'm not sure you will be able to the difference anyway. I researched this just as you are now, and more than one gunsmith told me "The barrel is the last thing that touches the bullet." These where guys that I trust and did not need or want my money. One guy said he was too busy filling his government contract to even do it for me, but he gave me that advice.
Best of luck.
skeetlee, I have a Remington PSS that wears a 19'' Bartlein barrel. I had Bartlein handle the install, and it was not trued to the best of my knowledge.
I've shot it out to 1200meters at about 350ASL and 1100 yards at ~5600ASL. Both times I have had it out that far, it hits with boring reliability. When I did load development, it shot everything into little holes, some smaller than the rest. After being re-barreled, the rifle also shoots about 4MOA flatter than it did with the 26'' Remington barrel.
I don't think that you can go wrong with either set-up, but I'm not sure you will be able to the difference anyway. I researched this just as you are now, and more than one gunsmith told me "The barrel is the last thing that touches the bullet." These where guys that I trust and did not need or want my money. One guy said he was too busy filling his government contract to even do it for me, but he gave me that advice.
Best of luck.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Dave,
<span style="font-weight: bold">mine in bold</span>
thanks,
Mark
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I've only seen the PTG receiver reaming tools but haven't actually used them my self so I really don't have any basis for comparison or an opinion yet.
Thanks for the input.
</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">I have my own views on what's important</span> and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm always interested in hearing input from others to assist my learning.
So, would it be too strong to say that you see no actual improvement by accurizing a factory Remington (or other mfg.) action?
</span>
There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today.
<span style="font-weight: bold">That makes perfect sense, as the overall tolerance control is likely better in an action not being mass produced.</span></div></div>
Dave,
<span style="font-weight: bold">mine in bold</span>
thanks,
Mark
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I've only seen the PTG receiver reaming tools but haven't actually used them my self so I really don't have any basis for comparison or an opinion yet.
Thanks for the input.
</span>
<span style="font-style: italic">I have my own views on what's important</span> and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm always interested in hearing input from others to assist my learning.
So, would it be too strong to say that you see no actual improvement by accurizing a factory Remington (or other mfg.) action?
</span>
There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today.
<span style="font-weight: bold">That makes perfect sense, as the overall tolerance control is likely better in an action not being mass produced.</span></div></div>
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today. </div></div>
I know it's a figure of speech but; the 700 a turd? What's your definition of "accuracy level"?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today. </div></div>
I know it's a figure of speech but; the 700 a turd? What's your definition of "accuracy level"?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today. </div></div>
I know it's a figure of speech but; the 700 a turd? What's your definition of "accuracy level"? </div></div>
I'd check what Dave has done historically and continues to do to understand what he considers acceptable accuracy. There are standards and then there are standards.
Cheers,
Doc
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both ways work well. It's all about craftsmanship. I use Manson's. I have my own views on what's important and what isn't but no matter what's done we're still polishing a turd. There is no way to bring a 700 to the same accuracy level as one of the good custom actions available today. </div></div>
I know it's a figure of speech but; the 700 a turd? What's your definition of "accuracy level"? </div></div>
I'd check what Dave has done historically and continues to do to understand what he considers acceptable accuracy. There are standards and then there are standards.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I know that Dave is one of the most respected builders in the country; if not the most! That's why I asked.
I know that Dave is one of the most respected builders in the country; if not the most! That's why I asked.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I've got 2 custom rifles on 700 actions, but there still 700 actions. I got on the Stiller group buy. I have a 700 ADL 243 and I can sell it for $400. Smith I'm gonna use charges $250 to true up action. I want a tactical bolt handle, $100. I got a Stiller Tac-30 action for $775, and if I get ready to sell it its a custom action that will hold its value lots better.
I've got 2 custom rifles on 700 actions, but there still 700 actions. I got on the Stiller group buy. I have a 700 ADL 243 and I can sell it for $400. Smith I'm gonna use charges $250 to true up action. I want a tactical bolt handle, $100. I got a Stiller Tac-30 action for $775, and if I get ready to sell it its a custom action that will hold its value lots better.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I had a contract with a Manf. to barrel 30 actions with #5 Broughtons. The specs included using the PTG .010+ tooling to "Blueprint the reciever" I have always Single Point BP remy and sav actions so the tooling was new to me for this project.
Reportedly all these rifles were sub 3/4 MOA which was within what the Guy was looking for, he said one was a legit 1/4moa gun.
I used the tooling on one of my actions to garner a little bit of experience with it. Building a 308 with a well respected Rock MTU tube with a 11.25 twist. That gun was a solid 3/4 moa gun and would give 1/2 moa a good portion of the time.
I eventually pulled the barrel and Single pointed the reciever, The results were the concentricity of the threads was still out, needing the removal of aprox .007" of material from the internal threads to get them "true".
My asumption is with tight bushings, the piloted tap still has a tendency to follow the existing threads, correcting them to a point but not making them truely concentric and parrallel with the bolt bore. The worst remy I ever found needed aprox .017 of thread removal to be true.
By the way that 308 now shoots consistently under 1/2 moa and will stay under 1/4 moa if the shooter is up to it. Last outing a member here put the first 5 out of the gun into 3/8" and I added another 7 that wallowed the hole to 1/2".
I still have a slightly used Reamer(carbide) and tap(HSS) for sale.$150 to your door.
I had a contract with a Manf. to barrel 30 actions with #5 Broughtons. The specs included using the PTG .010+ tooling to "Blueprint the reciever" I have always Single Point BP remy and sav actions so the tooling was new to me for this project.
Reportedly all these rifles were sub 3/4 MOA which was within what the Guy was looking for, he said one was a legit 1/4moa gun.
I used the tooling on one of my actions to garner a little bit of experience with it. Building a 308 with a well respected Rock MTU tube with a 11.25 twist. That gun was a solid 3/4 moa gun and would give 1/2 moa a good portion of the time.
I eventually pulled the barrel and Single pointed the reciever, The results were the concentricity of the threads was still out, needing the removal of aprox .007" of material from the internal threads to get them "true".
My asumption is with tight bushings, the piloted tap still has a tendency to follow the existing threads, correcting them to a point but not making them truely concentric and parrallel with the bolt bore. The worst remy I ever found needed aprox .017 of thread removal to be true.
By the way that 308 now shoots consistently under 1/2 moa and will stay under 1/4 moa if the shooter is up to it. Last outing a member here put the first 5 out of the gun into 3/8" and I added another 7 that wallowed the hole to 1/2".
I still have a slightly used Reamer(carbide) and tap(HSS) for sale.$150 to your door.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I kind of go along with JimSee. The one thing that bothers me, and I have done a number of 700's, is if using the tooling, it only takes into account of usually .010" or so of runout in the action threads. I have personally seen some runout as much as .028". It boils down to setup, you need to know what you are doing.
I kind of go along with JimSee. The one thing that bothers me, and I have done a number of 700's, is if using the tooling, it only takes into account of usually .010" or so of runout in the action threads. I have personally seen some runout as much as .028". It boils down to setup, you need to know what you are doing.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
OK since I've made a career out of truing Remingtons maybe turd is to strong a word but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
I don't look at one rifle or even 20 rifles. I look at a body of work that covers hundreds of rifles and the feed back or even better the lack of feedback from my customers. I can dry fire a rifle here in the shop and tell you something about it's personality. All will shoot accurately with the right load but some do it kicking and screaming while others digest everything you put in them. There's a reason for that.
You can debate all you want to about which way is the best to work on the action body but look at the fire control system in a Remington. Start with the firing pin and work your way out. Shape of the tip, fit of the tip in the bolt nose, fit of the pin in the shroud, the shroud itself, the fit of the shroud in the bolt body, the angle on the cocking piece, the angle of the top sear in the trigger. The concentricity of the action threads is way down the list of importance. For the record I have checked the runout under the rear receiver bridge of several actions when screwed on an accurately cut barrel tenon, before cutting the threads and after, no shoulder contact. All were +.010" to .015"TIR before and less than.003" TIR after using a piloted tap. Big improvement.
OK since I've made a career out of truing Remingtons maybe turd is to strong a word but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
I don't look at one rifle or even 20 rifles. I look at a body of work that covers hundreds of rifles and the feed back or even better the lack of feedback from my customers. I can dry fire a rifle here in the shop and tell you something about it's personality. All will shoot accurately with the right load but some do it kicking and screaming while others digest everything you put in them. There's a reason for that.
You can debate all you want to about which way is the best to work on the action body but look at the fire control system in a Remington. Start with the firing pin and work your way out. Shape of the tip, fit of the tip in the bolt nose, fit of the pin in the shroud, the shroud itself, the fit of the shroud in the bolt body, the angle on the cocking piece, the angle of the top sear in the trigger. The concentricity of the action threads is way down the list of importance. For the record I have checked the runout under the rear receiver bridge of several actions when screwed on an accurately cut barrel tenon, before cutting the threads and after, no shoulder contact. All were +.010" to .015"TIR before and less than.003" TIR after using a piloted tap. Big improvement.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
</div></div>
Thank you for <span style="font-weight: bold">taking</span> the time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
</div></div>
Thank you for <span style="font-weight: bold">taking</span> the time.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I had a 260 rem hunting rifle built last year. I was in a hurry and had a respected local smith do the work. He uses the Manson method/tooling.Which I didn't know until I dropped the action off. From my end I can not tell it from the 2 other single point cut 700's I have. All shoot very well. I don't think you can go wrong with having a field gun done this way. If it were a comp gun you would be using a BAT anyway.
I had a 260 rem hunting rifle built last year. I was in a hurry and had a respected local smith do the work. He uses the Manson method/tooling.Which I didn't know until I dropped the action off. From my end I can not tell it from the 2 other single point cut 700's I have. All shoot very well. I don't think you can go wrong with having a field gun done this way. If it were a comp gun you would be using a BAT anyway.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee!
And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee!
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee! </div></div>
It allowed me to learn something, so it wasn't a complete loss.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee! </div></div>
It allowed me to learn something, so it wasn't a complete loss.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee!</div></div>
Yeah, but there's usually a post or 2 in these types of threads that are worth reading. I skim thru the BS and pay attention to the people who have done it their whole lives.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocEd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And ol' Skeetlee duped you guys into biting on a thread that was started, by him, on 27 Aug. 2010, and was dead until he resuected it yesterday. Great job Lee!</div></div>
Yeah, but there's usually a post or 2 in these types of threads that are worth reading. I skim thru the BS and pay attention to the people who have done it their whole lives.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Single point is the best for me. Done it both ways and i get better results taking the extra time to single point cut everything. Most of the time i can hold .001 to .003 (t.i.r.) on a tight fitting mandrel in the bolt raceway of an action screwed onto the barrel stub (hand tight) at time of chambering. I feel the is the best that i can do taking into account that where i am measuring on the mandrel hanging out of the back of the action is magnified a bunch.
Single point is the best for me. Done it both ways and i get better results taking the extra time to single point cut everything. Most of the time i can hold .001 to .003 (t.i.r.) on a tight fitting mandrel in the bolt raceway of an action screwed onto the barrel stub (hand tight) at time of chambering. I feel the is the best that i can do taking into account that where i am measuring on the mandrel hanging out of the back of the action is magnified a bunch.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim See</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a contract with a Manf. to barrel 30 actions with #5 Broughtons. The specs included using the PTG .010+ tooling to "Blueprint the reciever" I have always Single Point BP remy and sav actions so the tooling was new to me for this project.
Reportedly all these rifles were sub 3/4 MOA which was within what the Guy was looking for, he said one was a legit 1/4moa gun.
I used the tooling on one of my actions to garner a little bit of experience with it. Building a 308 with a well respected Rock MTU tube with a 11.25 twist. That gun was a solid 3/4 moa gun and would give 1/2 moa a good portion of the time.
I eventually pulled the barrel and Single pointed the reciever, The results were the concentricity of the threads was still out, needing the removal of aprox .007" of material from the internal threads to get them "true".
My asumption is with tight bushings, the piloted tap still has a tendency to follow the existing threads, correcting them to a point but not making them truely concentric and parrallel with the bolt bore. The worst remy I ever found needed aprox .017 of thread removal to be true.
By the way that 308 now shoots consistently under 1/2 moa and will stay under 1/4 moa if the shooter is up to it. Last outing a member here put the first 5 out of the gun into 3/8" and I added another 7 that wallowed the hole to 1/2".
I still have a slightly used Reamer(carbide) and tap(HSS) for sale.$150 to your door. </div></div>
I have personally used the Manson tooling on a few personal rifles in the past and just at a later point went back and trued up them again with the single point method. I feel that out of all the action work done during normal truing with reamers and taps, the only real benefit is truing the action face, because you still have plenty of run out on the threads, they are just cleaner and look pretty. With the Manson set up your still truing the action face on a lathe with a single point tool, its just not as accurately dialed in as it would be in a truing fixture. I would put most stress on truing the action face over any other action service.
Yesterday I was single point truing a bunch of Remingtons and Winchesters. One Remington was a custom rifle built by a "local reputable smith" but would not shoot and the builder told the customer "too bad, its not my fault". I know this customer can shoot, anyway, I measured the run out on the receiver face after indicating it and it measured around .001" runout. The action threads also had a decent amount of runout as well, and that was cut out. Everything looked nice inside and I suspect that the builder used some kind of piloted tooling.
For actions, my main concern is to ensure that there is a solid, even, stress free junction at the recoil lug and barrel shoulder. I feel single point cutting is the best way to get there and having straight, true threads helps also. Just my opinion.
Mark
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim See</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a contract with a Manf. to barrel 30 actions with #5 Broughtons. The specs included using the PTG .010+ tooling to "Blueprint the reciever" I have always Single Point BP remy and sav actions so the tooling was new to me for this project.
Reportedly all these rifles were sub 3/4 MOA which was within what the Guy was looking for, he said one was a legit 1/4moa gun.
I used the tooling on one of my actions to garner a little bit of experience with it. Building a 308 with a well respected Rock MTU tube with a 11.25 twist. That gun was a solid 3/4 moa gun and would give 1/2 moa a good portion of the time.
I eventually pulled the barrel and Single pointed the reciever, The results were the concentricity of the threads was still out, needing the removal of aprox .007" of material from the internal threads to get them "true".
My asumption is with tight bushings, the piloted tap still has a tendency to follow the existing threads, correcting them to a point but not making them truely concentric and parrallel with the bolt bore. The worst remy I ever found needed aprox .017 of thread removal to be true.
By the way that 308 now shoots consistently under 1/2 moa and will stay under 1/4 moa if the shooter is up to it. Last outing a member here put the first 5 out of the gun into 3/8" and I added another 7 that wallowed the hole to 1/2".
I still have a slightly used Reamer(carbide) and tap(HSS) for sale.$150 to your door. </div></div>
I have personally used the Manson tooling on a few personal rifles in the past and just at a later point went back and trued up them again with the single point method. I feel that out of all the action work done during normal truing with reamers and taps, the only real benefit is truing the action face, because you still have plenty of run out on the threads, they are just cleaner and look pretty. With the Manson set up your still truing the action face on a lathe with a single point tool, its just not as accurately dialed in as it would be in a truing fixture. I would put most stress on truing the action face over any other action service.
Yesterday I was single point truing a bunch of Remingtons and Winchesters. One Remington was a custom rifle built by a "local reputable smith" but would not shoot and the builder told the customer "too bad, its not my fault". I know this customer can shoot, anyway, I measured the run out on the receiver face after indicating it and it measured around .001" runout. The action threads also had a decent amount of runout as well, and that was cut out. Everything looked nice inside and I suspect that the builder used some kind of piloted tooling.
For actions, my main concern is to ensure that there is a solid, even, stress free junction at the recoil lug and barrel shoulder. I feel single point cutting is the best way to get there and having straight, true threads helps also. Just my opinion.
Mark
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
FWIW the time I spent in manufacturing taught me that tapped holes do one thing. They make "wrinkles" that bolts can screw into.
Anything requiring location depends on a single point tool. Be it in a lathe or a milling center. I just don't see a mandrel holding location. I don't care what it's made out of. There's too much tooling in contact with the part. It'll take the path of least resistance.
I have to agree with Mr. Tooley's (sharp guy!) post for the most part. The threads are an important component, but pale in comparison to other items. Be that as it is, if a guy ignores it I think it does affect things. (sometimes significantly)
FWIW the time I spent in manufacturing taught me that tapped holes do one thing. They make "wrinkles" that bolts can screw into.
Anything requiring location depends on a single point tool. Be it in a lathe or a milling center. I just don't see a mandrel holding location. I don't care what it's made out of. There's too much tooling in contact with the part. It'll take the path of least resistance.
I have to agree with Mr. Tooley's (sharp guy!) post for the most part. The threads are an important component, but pale in comparison to other items. Be that as it is, if a guy ignores it I think it does affect things. (sometimes significantly)
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Hey Chad
You going to the Shot Show? Would like to sit down and swap some lies with you. I'll be in and out of AI's booth. PM me.
Hey Chad
You going to the Shot Show? Would like to sit down and swap some lies with you. I'll be in and out of AI's booth. PM me.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
To go through the trouble of single pointing a Rem action with the intention of reusing the factory bolt, is wasting time and effort. Without a tighter fitting bolt the "turd" analogy is pretty appropriate.
To go through the trouble of single pointing a Rem action with the intention of reusing the factory bolt, is wasting time and effort. Without a tighter fitting bolt the "turd" analogy is pretty appropriate.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Dave I'm skipping out this year. The volume of work in here just doesn't justify the week+ away from here. Palma worlds are this summer and I have some guns to tune up since the team made a change on chambers and barrel requirements.
I'm also using the time to put a makeover on my Haas mill. New keypad arriving today (woo hoo!) and I'm determined to stuff an 18" flatscreen LCD screen in the dern thing. The bubble screen just bugs me.
Bummed me out cause David (Kiff) offered up a little booth space on his plot for me to spread my propaganda.
If you get a chance, stop by the Sturgis Economic Development Booth. The "ol man" than I'm in cahoots with (sorta) will be there. Just look for a guy that looks like an "old crook."
Be warned, he's a silver tongue and will likely try to talk you into moving up here to experience our winters!
Next year for sure.
Have a great time.
C
Dave I'm skipping out this year. The volume of work in here just doesn't justify the week+ away from here. Palma worlds are this summer and I have some guns to tune up since the team made a change on chambers and barrel requirements.
I'm also using the time to put a makeover on my Haas mill. New keypad arriving today (woo hoo!) and I'm determined to stuff an 18" flatscreen LCD screen in the dern thing. The bubble screen just bugs me.
Bummed me out cause David (Kiff) offered up a little booth space on his plot for me to spread my propaganda.
If you get a chance, stop by the Sturgis Economic Development Booth. The "ol man" than I'm in cahoots with (sorta) will be there. Just look for a guy that looks like an "old crook."
Be warned, he's a silver tongue and will likely try to talk you into moving up here to experience our winters!
Next year for sure.
Have a great time.
C
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I disagree on the bolt fit.
I'm fortunate to have some pretty good software. I once sat and modeled a 700 short action and played with different bore clearances just to see what the angular deviation is.
with .005 (.01 diameter) clearance its .054 degrees and results in the 12/clock position lug tipping away from the receiver .00124".
I'm not by any means advocating everyone run around with "hot dog in a hallway" actions, however in 10+ years I've yet to have anyone conclusively demonstrate to me that it's the difference between good and exceptional. I have two folks I call friends who have both shot exceptional scores in 1K and international Palma with "loosey goosey" actions. One was a TN state LR champion and the other was on the 03 US Palma Team.
It should be heavily based on application IMO. A "trohpy wife" bench gun shot in a controlled (sterile) environment is one thing. Make it so tight she squeaks. What the hell right?
A field gun hauled through a patch northern New Mexico desert or a DDM rifle in the middle east is quite another story altogether.
I disagree on the bolt fit.
I'm fortunate to have some pretty good software. I once sat and modeled a 700 short action and played with different bore clearances just to see what the angular deviation is.
with .005 (.01 diameter) clearance its .054 degrees and results in the 12/clock position lug tipping away from the receiver .00124".
I'm not by any means advocating everyone run around with "hot dog in a hallway" actions, however in 10+ years I've yet to have anyone conclusively demonstrate to me that it's the difference between good and exceptional. I have two folks I call friends who have both shot exceptional scores in 1K and international Palma with "loosey goosey" actions. One was a TN state LR champion and the other was on the 03 US Palma Team.
It should be heavily based on application IMO. A "trohpy wife" bench gun shot in a controlled (sterile) environment is one thing. Make it so tight she squeaks. What the hell right?
A field gun hauled through a patch northern New Mexico desert or a DDM rifle in the middle east is quite another story altogether.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with .005 (.01 diameter) clearance its .054 degrees and results in the 12/clock position lug tipping away from the receiver .00124". </div></div>
Mr.Dixon, with all due respect... .00124" clearance is still a bolt with one lug not touching the lug abutment and the one that is... isnt in full contact. Clearance is clearance and if its not touching by a thousanth it might as well not be touching by ten.
I would also assert that you've never seen truly conclusive evidence that single pointing an action produces a product demonstrably more accurate than a mandrel trued action...as long as your making comparisons....and its not that I disagree with single pointing, its that I believe it to be wasted effort unless the factory bolt is replaced.
Using the two palma shooters scores and the .168" screamer group I shot with a worn out Savage 22-250 as empirical evidence...we'd have to conclude ANY action work is a useless waste of money.
Finding the exception to commonly held beliefs and practices is considerably easier than proving their viability.
Going back to that .005" bolt body clearance...even if a properly sized case is cammed into battery on even an action thats been trued ,it still has .00124" of air behind the top lug by virtue of the "weight" of the firing pin spring and the angle of the top sear in the trigger in relationship to the angle on the cocking piece....driving the rear of the bolt body upward...UNLESS bolt clearance is minimized.
The software that I was downloaded with tells me the consequence of that tolerance is going to be brass with bases that are "unsquare" to the axial centerline of the cartridge body when the powder charge gets ignited.
I really enjoyed your "hotdog in a hallway" analogy and I hope you wont mind me using it on occasion.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with .005 (.01 diameter) clearance its .054 degrees and results in the 12/clock position lug tipping away from the receiver .00124". </div></div>
Mr.Dixon, with all due respect... .00124" clearance is still a bolt with one lug not touching the lug abutment and the one that is... isnt in full contact. Clearance is clearance and if its not touching by a thousanth it might as well not be touching by ten.
I would also assert that you've never seen truly conclusive evidence that single pointing an action produces a product demonstrably more accurate than a mandrel trued action...as long as your making comparisons....and its not that I disagree with single pointing, its that I believe it to be wasted effort unless the factory bolt is replaced.
Using the two palma shooters scores and the .168" screamer group I shot with a worn out Savage 22-250 as empirical evidence...we'd have to conclude ANY action work is a useless waste of money.
Finding the exception to commonly held beliefs and practices is considerably easier than proving their viability.
Going back to that .005" bolt body clearance...even if a properly sized case is cammed into battery on even an action thats been trued ,it still has .00124" of air behind the top lug by virtue of the "weight" of the firing pin spring and the angle of the top sear in the trigger in relationship to the angle on the cocking piece....driving the rear of the bolt body upward...UNLESS bolt clearance is minimized.
The software that I was downloaded with tells me the consequence of that tolerance is going to be brass with bases that are "unsquare" to the axial centerline of the cartridge body when the powder charge gets ignited.
I really enjoyed your "hotdog in a hallway" analogy and I hope you wont mind me using it on occasion.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
i've come up with a similar number as chad has when i drew it up in cad. the .00124" (i can't remember my exact number off the top of my head but i believe it was real close), is at the extreme end of the lug. it is much less near the bolt body.
<span style="font-style: italic">my theory</span> is once the upward sear pressure is gone, there is 60,000+ psi pushing back on the bolt face. as long as there is enough clearance between the bolt body and receiver to allow it, both bolt lugs are going to be making contact almost instantly. at that point, as long as the rear of the lugs and bolt face are parallel and concentric to the chamber, the fired brass should stay square.
now you also mention camming a fresh round into the chamber. as long as the bolt body to receiver clearance allows it, will the force of the case against the bolt face counteract the upward sear pressure?
i've come up with a similar number as chad has when i drew it up in cad. the .00124" (i can't remember my exact number off the top of my head but i believe it was real close), is at the extreme end of the lug. it is much less near the bolt body.
<span style="font-style: italic">my theory</span> is once the upward sear pressure is gone, there is 60,000+ psi pushing back on the bolt face. as long as there is enough clearance between the bolt body and receiver to allow it, both bolt lugs are going to be making contact almost instantly. at that point, as long as the rear of the lugs and bolt face are parallel and concentric to the chamber, the fired brass should stay square.
now you also mention camming a fresh round into the chamber. as long as the bolt body to receiver clearance allows it, will the force of the case against the bolt face counteract the upward sear pressure?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
300,
Robert, yer a smert cookie!
As for clearances:
This may be a little off track, but hopefully it helps to support the conversation.
In 20+ years of being around this stuff there's only one bolt action rifle that I've encountered that essentially has zero play between the bolt and the receiver. The Grunig and Elmiger FT300 CISM rifle. (I'm a US service center and non stocking dealer for G/E btw)
That being said the action that comes to mind that offers a complete and total solution to these kinds of questions is the Miller Arms line of falling blocks designed by Cyle Miller in St. Onge, SD. Pretty much THE rifle to have if your a Schutzen addict.
Now, if that is indeed the case then why isn't everyone using guns along these lines for extreme accuracy? The bench rest boys are about as obsessive as it gets.
The truth is neither of these two rifles shoot any better or any worse than a bolt gun with a good barrel and a sharp nut on the trigger.
I don't mean to undermine the importance of tolerances. I take a great deal of time when blueprinting an action to ensure the numbers are right when its all done. However my motives are a bit different and I'll use a simple comparison to explain why.
Take a stock camaro and a stock "supercar" of your choice.
The camaro is manufactured as fast as GM can produce it. It starts, goes reasonably fast, stops, and turns better than most other cars.
It's still a camaro.
Now the supercar. It's hand fitted. Everything is touched, fluffed, polished, rubbed on, and loved from the headlights to the screws that hold the rear license plate.
There does exist a percentage of folks who want that kind of individual attention when they fork over their 40 hours a week.
That is part of why I blueprint an action.
The other aspect that's often underscored are the threads. Concentric threads are one thing. What I am really interested in is a threaded receiver ring that has a bright, shiny, cleanly machined thread.
When I machine my tennons they too are bright, shiny, and free of <span style="font-style: italic">surface inclusions.</span>
The reason is when you get a barreled action from me you will immediately know something is different if you take the barrel off. The thread fit mimics the feel of a thimble on a micrometer. I obsess over it.
We can sit for hours and debate a hundred different subjects when it comes to gun making. An indisputable fact however is that ALL the energy a cartridge generates has to be managed in some way at the threaded union between action and receiver.
Take the worlds strongest man and have him hold a barrel with all his might. Now get a preschooler and have her grab the muzzle. With one finger that little kid will steer that barrel wherever she wants.
The fact that an action does as good a job as it does amazes me. In my mind it's vital to have a thread fit with as close to zero tolerance as possible. The only way to mitigate a seizure between tennon/receiver is to make improvements upon the surface finish so that inclusions aren't snagged and peeled-which consequently contaminates the threads between the flanks and causes galling/seizure.
FWIW I don't use an anti-seize compound during assembly either.
What this dissertation is trying to say is I have a very difficult time accepting that a tap will get me what I deem as important.
I also don't buy the notion that a tap centering on a mandrel will cut a path independent of what is already there. The tap wants to follow the hole. There's a bunch of tool engagement so the part will win and the tool will take the path of least resistance.
If it will then by the same argument a guy should be able to buy a die and stuff a mandrel in the bore and cut his barrel tennon the same way.
I have two CNC slant bed turning centers here. Both are several thousands of pounds in weight. If I were to rigidly mount a tap in my turret and then intentionally bump the X offset by say .005" I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the tap would not cut a concentric thread. It would end up having some sort of funky taper.
This is why I don't buy the mandrel trick.
That being said I'd be willing to speculate that if we took 10 actions single pointed and 10 cut with a tap we'd see no change in accuracy if all other things were equal. (barrels, cartridges, bedding, etc)
Improve the quality of the thread fit however and I do think (and experience has taught me this to be true) accuracy will improve. Leaps and bounds? No, but it is there and it's enough to justify me devoting the programming time and effort to make sure I get it.
In my "6mm Remix" thread on here I made the decision to ditch the factory bolt that another smith ruined. We got a new PTG bolt instead and it was fitted to a minimal tolerance. (monkey see monkey do) I did not touch the barrel other than to neatly engrave the caliber on the side. No other work was done.
I've bedded the stock and put my "fluff" on things, but the action is an untouched 700. Both bolts headspace (thank god!) which presents me with a unique opportunity. The only difference with the PTG bolt is I have one of my fire control setups in it. I can't say conclusively but the feedback I'm getting from the customers that have them are that they do see a small improvement when they switch over to it. It may be them justifying the expense, but it's been overwhelmingly positive so I like to think it's not just "fluff".
The customer and I are going to shoot the dickens out of this thing with both bolts. One is the supercar bolt and the other a rusted out trailer park camaro.
It'll be interesting the see the difference on paper.
Hope this helps.
C
300,
Robert, yer a smert cookie!
As for clearances:
This may be a little off track, but hopefully it helps to support the conversation.
In 20+ years of being around this stuff there's only one bolt action rifle that I've encountered that essentially has zero play between the bolt and the receiver. The Grunig and Elmiger FT300 CISM rifle. (I'm a US service center and non stocking dealer for G/E btw)
That being said the action that comes to mind that offers a complete and total solution to these kinds of questions is the Miller Arms line of falling blocks designed by Cyle Miller in St. Onge, SD. Pretty much THE rifle to have if your a Schutzen addict.
Now, if that is indeed the case then why isn't everyone using guns along these lines for extreme accuracy? The bench rest boys are about as obsessive as it gets.
The truth is neither of these two rifles shoot any better or any worse than a bolt gun with a good barrel and a sharp nut on the trigger.
I don't mean to undermine the importance of tolerances. I take a great deal of time when blueprinting an action to ensure the numbers are right when its all done. However my motives are a bit different and I'll use a simple comparison to explain why.
Take a stock camaro and a stock "supercar" of your choice.
The camaro is manufactured as fast as GM can produce it. It starts, goes reasonably fast, stops, and turns better than most other cars.
It's still a camaro.
Now the supercar. It's hand fitted. Everything is touched, fluffed, polished, rubbed on, and loved from the headlights to the screws that hold the rear license plate.
There does exist a percentage of folks who want that kind of individual attention when they fork over their 40 hours a week.
That is part of why I blueprint an action.
The other aspect that's often underscored are the threads. Concentric threads are one thing. What I am really interested in is a threaded receiver ring that has a bright, shiny, cleanly machined thread.
When I machine my tennons they too are bright, shiny, and free of <span style="font-style: italic">surface inclusions.</span>
The reason is when you get a barreled action from me you will immediately know something is different if you take the barrel off. The thread fit mimics the feel of a thimble on a micrometer. I obsess over it.
We can sit for hours and debate a hundred different subjects when it comes to gun making. An indisputable fact however is that ALL the energy a cartridge generates has to be managed in some way at the threaded union between action and receiver.
Take the worlds strongest man and have him hold a barrel with all his might. Now get a preschooler and have her grab the muzzle. With one finger that little kid will steer that barrel wherever she wants.
The fact that an action does as good a job as it does amazes me. In my mind it's vital to have a thread fit with as close to zero tolerance as possible. The only way to mitigate a seizure between tennon/receiver is to make improvements upon the surface finish so that inclusions aren't snagged and peeled-which consequently contaminates the threads between the flanks and causes galling/seizure.
FWIW I don't use an anti-seize compound during assembly either.
What this dissertation is trying to say is I have a very difficult time accepting that a tap will get me what I deem as important.
I also don't buy the notion that a tap centering on a mandrel will cut a path independent of what is already there. The tap wants to follow the hole. There's a bunch of tool engagement so the part will win and the tool will take the path of least resistance.
If it will then by the same argument a guy should be able to buy a die and stuff a mandrel in the bore and cut his barrel tennon the same way.
I have two CNC slant bed turning centers here. Both are several thousands of pounds in weight. If I were to rigidly mount a tap in my turret and then intentionally bump the X offset by say .005" I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the tap would not cut a concentric thread. It would end up having some sort of funky taper.
This is why I don't buy the mandrel trick.
That being said I'd be willing to speculate that if we took 10 actions single pointed and 10 cut with a tap we'd see no change in accuracy if all other things were equal. (barrels, cartridges, bedding, etc)
Improve the quality of the thread fit however and I do think (and experience has taught me this to be true) accuracy will improve. Leaps and bounds? No, but it is there and it's enough to justify me devoting the programming time and effort to make sure I get it.
In my "6mm Remix" thread on here I made the decision to ditch the factory bolt that another smith ruined. We got a new PTG bolt instead and it was fitted to a minimal tolerance. (monkey see monkey do) I did not touch the barrel other than to neatly engrave the caliber on the side. No other work was done.
I've bedded the stock and put my "fluff" on things, but the action is an untouched 700. Both bolts headspace (thank god!) which presents me with a unique opportunity. The only difference with the PTG bolt is I have one of my fire control setups in it. I can't say conclusively but the feedback I'm getting from the customers that have them are that they do see a small improvement when they switch over to it. It may be them justifying the expense, but it's been overwhelmingly positive so I like to think it's not just "fluff".
The customer and I are going to shoot the dickens out of this thing with both bolts. One is the supercar bolt and the other a rusted out trailer park camaro.
It'll be interesting the see the difference on paper.
Hope this helps.
C
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
off topic a bit. chad, are you programming a radius between the tennon and shoulder or is that just the radius of the tool?
off topic a bit. chad, are you programming a radius between the tennon and shoulder or is that just the radius of the tool?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Depends on the action.
I'll take as much as I can get provided there's enough material in the receiver (and barrel cylinder OD) to still adequately clam up against the shoulder.
A 1.47 Nesika with big ol fatty BR barrel for instance would get more radius than a 1.35 action on a 1.15 cylinder sporter. For the small stuff I just let the .015"R of the tool do the work for me.
Depends on the action.
I'll take as much as I can get provided there's enough material in the receiver (and barrel cylinder OD) to still adequately clam up against the shoulder.
A 1.47 Nesika with big ol fatty BR barrel for instance would get more radius than a 1.35 action on a 1.15 cylinder sporter. For the small stuff I just let the .015"R of the tool do the work for me.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">now you also mention camming a fresh round into the chamber. as long as the bolt body to receiver clearance allows it, will the force of the case against the bolt face counteract the upward sear pressure? </div></div>
Good question, does it overcome the 28# or 32# or super-lock-time accelerator kit spring?
In theory it would seem like it has to but when I've experimented with an empty case... most every factory Rem..the rear of the bolt drops. Can the momentary pressure suspend the bolt "stiff as a pointing dogs tail" through the ignition phase?
A lot of discussion has been had about bolt handles jumping ..in the ignition phase ,due to the cocking piece dropping onto the cocking ramp and the effect it has on accuracy.... and we reshape cocking ramps to do what we can to mitigate it.
Sooo when the 60,000 pressure units do what they do....is the rear end of the bolt in a perfectly concentric position under the rear receiver bridge? does the few ounces of weight of the bolt... make the bolt droop the other direction immediately upon the sear dropping? Does .005 clearance have the rear of the bolt dancing with the same harmonic wave the barrel does?
Heres how to prove/disprove your theory: Sharpie a vertical line down the side of ten cartridges. Put that line in the 12 oclock position when you fire it. Put the fired cartridges in a lathe and turn the bases square. Repeat the procedure with the black line in the 6 oclock position and check the cartridge bases for runout.
The term "stacking tolerances" will become evident.
Going back to the upward pressure created by the angles of the sear,cocking piece and fp spring...You've got (in theory) two lugs flat to the abutment in the cocked phase.
With the rear of the bolt elevated .005 and the top lug unsupported (by .00124) there also has to be air on the body side of the lower lug so that the entire mechanism's "weight" is being drug across the abutment surface on the lower edge of the lower lug. You can check it with carefully applied Dykem.
Sounds like a formula for accelerated wear and I've heard it said that Rem actions dont "stay squared" more than once.
I've built several CZ 527's that with no receiver work, hit '06 cartriges with boring regularity @ 100 yds. ....makes me wonder about the value of truing at all?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">now you also mention camming a fresh round into the chamber. as long as the bolt body to receiver clearance allows it, will the force of the case against the bolt face counteract the upward sear pressure? </div></div>
Good question, does it overcome the 28# or 32# or super-lock-time accelerator kit spring?
In theory it would seem like it has to but when I've experimented with an empty case... most every factory Rem..the rear of the bolt drops. Can the momentary pressure suspend the bolt "stiff as a pointing dogs tail" through the ignition phase?
A lot of discussion has been had about bolt handles jumping ..in the ignition phase ,due to the cocking piece dropping onto the cocking ramp and the effect it has on accuracy.... and we reshape cocking ramps to do what we can to mitigate it.
Sooo when the 60,000 pressure units do what they do....is the rear end of the bolt in a perfectly concentric position under the rear receiver bridge? does the few ounces of weight of the bolt... make the bolt droop the other direction immediately upon the sear dropping? Does .005 clearance have the rear of the bolt dancing with the same harmonic wave the barrel does?
Heres how to prove/disprove your theory: Sharpie a vertical line down the side of ten cartridges. Put that line in the 12 oclock position when you fire it. Put the fired cartridges in a lathe and turn the bases square. Repeat the procedure with the black line in the 6 oclock position and check the cartridge bases for runout.
The term "stacking tolerances" will become evident.
Going back to the upward pressure created by the angles of the sear,cocking piece and fp spring...You've got (in theory) two lugs flat to the abutment in the cocked phase.
With the rear of the bolt elevated .005 and the top lug unsupported (by .00124) there also has to be air on the body side of the lower lug so that the entire mechanism's "weight" is being drug across the abutment surface on the lower edge of the lower lug. You can check it with carefully applied Dykem.
Sounds like a formula for accelerated wear and I've heard it said that Rem actions dont "stay squared" more than once.
I've built several CZ 527's that with no receiver work, hit '06 cartriges with boring regularity @ 100 yds. ....makes me wonder about the value of truing at all?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
How much of the truing do you think is the person doing the work?
I have been working in auto body for almost 20 years now, and I have seen guys using the same tools do great work and some that would scare you. Do you think the same thing translates into gunsmithing, that you can have the "best tools" and a poor work ethic or what ever you want to call it, and do bad work with the "best tools" or great work with good tools? If you had the same smith who does awesome work use both methods/tools would one job turn out better than the other based on just the tools?
How much of the truing do you think is the person doing the work?
I have been working in auto body for almost 20 years now, and I have seen guys using the same tools do great work and some that would scare you. Do you think the same thing translates into gunsmithing, that you can have the "best tools" and a poor work ethic or what ever you want to call it, and do bad work with the "best tools" or great work with good tools? If you had the same smith who does awesome work use both methods/tools would one job turn out better than the other based on just the tools?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this.
ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful. </div></div>
So if the base of the case is perfectly perpendicular and there's .0006 variance in say the bolt face or the lug abutments that wont force the cartridge to one side either?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful. </div></div>
So if the base of the case is perfectly perpendicular and there's .0006 variance in say the bolt face or the lug abutments that wont force the cartridge to one side either?
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful. </div></div>
So if the base of the case is perfectly perpendicular and there's .0006 variance in say the bolt face or the lug abutments that wont force the cartridge to one side either? </div></div>
we're talking about .05° to .08° from perpendicular, and again that is assuming the bolt stays canted during firing. i wouldn't go out of my way to create that situation on purpose but i really don't think that is going to push the rear of the cartridge one way or the other.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, a quick cad drawing shows that if the rear of the bolt stays at the extreme top or extreme bottom of the raceway during firing with .005 body to raceway clearance, even with a magnum bolt face, there would be a maximum of about 6 tenths of runout at the outer edge of the case base. how good is your press/reloading dies/case holders? i have never measured mine but i bet most people's reloading practices will not net brass better than this. </div></div>
I think the bigger question is if in a chamber that has .002 clearance in the neck does the 6 tenths deviance in the base,leverage the case and force the bullet to enter the throat off center? </div></div>
doubtful. </div></div>
So if the base of the case is perfectly perpendicular and there's .0006 variance in say the bolt face or the lug abutments that wont force the cartridge to one side either? </div></div>
we're talking about .05° to .08° from perpendicular, and again that is assuming the bolt stays canted during firing. i wouldn't go out of my way to create that situation on purpose but i really don't think that is going to push the rear of the cartridge one way or the other.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
I'm not trying to be cynical or rude.
Do you guys understand just how small .0006" is?
I just plucked a hair out of my skull and put a mic to it.
It's .0026".
Divide that by .0006" and you get 4.3
Anyone here care to take a razorblade and slice a hair into four sections?
That's what were dealing with.
The ultimate answer to this is:
You could build a theoretical test rig where the bolt/block, whatever was exactly square to the bore centerline. Perfectly ground, etc.
The minute you stuff a case in there all bets are off. The neck must have room to expand to release the bullet. The cartridge body must have clearance to chamber and extract.
Real world example.
I just finished a 22-250 AI recently. Customer is coyote hunting fool (obsessive!) around these parts. He loaded up a whole pile of winny brass and it shot really well for him. Sub 1/3moa groups at 200 yards.
Then he had some extraction issues because Winchester brass has a smaller base than Remmy. With an Ackley it just didn't want to extract reliably and that's pure poison on any rifle. We switched to Remington brass and duplicated the load. "Mysteriously" all the problems went away regarding function plus the added benefit that the case webs don't look like they're about to pop like a wood tick from the base circle of the case being too small.
Accuracy didn't change one bit. Still holding 1/3rd moa groups at 200. The Remmy stuff is bigger than the winchester, meaning the case has less wiggle room in the chamber.
So with all that "slop" in the chamber running Winny brass how come the gun didn't improved by leaps and bounds when we switched over to Remington brass?
Because it didn't. That's why.
I'm not trying to be cynical or rude.
Do you guys understand just how small .0006" is?
I just plucked a hair out of my skull and put a mic to it.
It's .0026".
Divide that by .0006" and you get 4.3
Anyone here care to take a razorblade and slice a hair into four sections?
That's what were dealing with.
The ultimate answer to this is:
You could build a theoretical test rig where the bolt/block, whatever was exactly square to the bore centerline. Perfectly ground, etc.
The minute you stuff a case in there all bets are off. The neck must have room to expand to release the bullet. The cartridge body must have clearance to chamber and extract.
Real world example.
I just finished a 22-250 AI recently. Customer is coyote hunting fool (obsessive!) around these parts. He loaded up a whole pile of winny brass and it shot really well for him. Sub 1/3moa groups at 200 yards.
Then he had some extraction issues because Winchester brass has a smaller base than Remmy. With an Ackley it just didn't want to extract reliably and that's pure poison on any rifle. We switched to Remington brass and duplicated the load. "Mysteriously" all the problems went away regarding function plus the added benefit that the case webs don't look like they're about to pop like a wood tick from the base circle of the case being too small.
Accuracy didn't change one bit. Still holding 1/3rd moa groups at 200. The Remmy stuff is bigger than the winchester, meaning the case has less wiggle room in the chamber.
So with all that "slop" in the chamber running Winny brass how come the gun didn't improved by leaps and bounds when we switched over to Remington brass?
Because it didn't. That's why.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Most, if not all of the 700's I tune have a rear bolt raceway opening of .701-.703" and a bolt body rear diameter of .699-.700". That’s only a difference of .002-.004" max.
With the rear of the bolt body deflecting <.005", the bolt face to cartridge case head relationship is what changes. With firing pin spring and ejector spring tension against the bolt body and case head I think actual deflection is absolutely minimal at best. Crunch the numbers for the length to diameter TIR ratio and you'll be surprised at how small/low the final movement is. I doubt you'd be able to measure any appreciable accuracy difference between .000" deflection and .0006" deflection at the case head.
As far as receiver truing being a waste of money, that’s total BS for one to think so. What about the receiver threads and receiver face being perpendicular to the chamber/bore/raceway. Does that not account for any gain in accuracy, I think it does. Start the bullet straight and have it leave straight........... that’s good juju for accuracy.
Most, if not all of the 700's I tune have a rear bolt raceway opening of .701-.703" and a bolt body rear diameter of .699-.700". That’s only a difference of .002-.004" max.
With the rear of the bolt body deflecting <.005", the bolt face to cartridge case head relationship is what changes. With firing pin spring and ejector spring tension against the bolt body and case head I think actual deflection is absolutely minimal at best. Crunch the numbers for the length to diameter TIR ratio and you'll be surprised at how small/low the final movement is. I doubt you'd be able to measure any appreciable accuracy difference between .000" deflection and .0006" deflection at the case head.
As far as receiver truing being a waste of money, that’s total BS for one to think so. What about the receiver threads and receiver face being perpendicular to the chamber/bore/raceway. Does that not account for any gain in accuracy, I think it does. Start the bullet straight and have it leave straight........... that’s good juju for accuracy.
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
</div></div>
Thank you for <span style="font-weight: bold">taking</span> the time. </div></div>
Yeah, Dave, thanks for your invaluable input. As Nobody used to say, "consider the source". Doesn't come any higher than you.
Cheers,
Neil
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have stayed out of this as this topic is a blackhole that sucks time.
</div></div>
Thank you for <span style="font-weight: bold">taking</span> the time. </div></div>
Yeah, Dave, thanks for your invaluable input. As Nobody used to say, "consider the source". Doesn't come any higher than you.
Cheers,
Neil
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Damned impressive thread. Thanks for the insight!
Damned impressive thread. Thanks for the insight!
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
looks like i will be attempting to true up a remington 700 receiver vertically on the cnc mill in the near future. i just ordered the thread mill today. to me, it seems like a great way to go about it. once i have done it, i will have an honest opinion on the time involved and the quality of the results. or i may be scrapping the receiver
looks like i will be attempting to true up a remington 700 receiver vertically on the cnc mill in the near future. i just ordered the thread mill today. to me, it seems like a great way to go about it. once i have done it, i will have an honest opinion on the time involved and the quality of the results. or i may be scrapping the receiver
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
Robert,
Machinable wax is your friend buddy!
Buy a chunk of that or delrin to proof out your process before going to an actual receiver.
Measure twice, cut once!
Robert,
Machinable wax is your friend buddy!
Buy a chunk of that or delrin to proof out your process before going to an actual receiver.
Measure twice, cut once!
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Measure twice, cut once! </div></div>
"i cut it three times and it's still too short."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Measure twice, cut once! </div></div>
"i cut it three times and it's still too short."
Re: rem 700 action truing method??
hey fellas thanks for all the info. This post has turned golden. Lots of good info offered by the top guys in the business. you cant get that kind of info anywhere else. I apologies for DocED he likes to follow my post and throw jabs in everywhere he can. I used to think it was funny but it just doesn't stop. Im not sure what to think any more about it. Sad really! I have offered my friendship to him many many times with no avail, and thats fine. As long as my side of the street is clean thats all that matters. heck Doc is a heck of a shooter and a pretty dam good smith especailly with rem 700, he actually has a lot he can offer to this post but he is more worried about what i am doing i guess. the dude just doesnt like me! LOL!! No worries, like i said my side of the street is clean.
Anyway I was really on the fence about what method to use for truing a rem 700 if i so choose this route. I have been putting ideas together for a 22-250Ai coyote rig for about a year now so thats what sparked my interest in all this. I noticed i could save about 100 bucks by going with the jig method and i must admit it seemed like the way to go for what i was wanting. On the flip side i like nice rifles as i work hard just like we all do to afford this stuff and i want to know everything is done the best it can be. I am convene that single point is the best method but what i am still not sure is if a rem 700 is the best option. You sure can rap up a lot of money in a rem 700 but thats another subject all its own.
Im glad everyone has enjoyed this post. these are just the types of things i think about everyday. Thanks again! Lee
hey fellas thanks for all the info. This post has turned golden. Lots of good info offered by the top guys in the business. you cant get that kind of info anywhere else. I apologies for DocED he likes to follow my post and throw jabs in everywhere he can. I used to think it was funny but it just doesn't stop. Im not sure what to think any more about it. Sad really! I have offered my friendship to him many many times with no avail, and thats fine. As long as my side of the street is clean thats all that matters. heck Doc is a heck of a shooter and a pretty dam good smith especailly with rem 700, he actually has a lot he can offer to this post but he is more worried about what i am doing i guess. the dude just doesnt like me! LOL!! No worries, like i said my side of the street is clean.
Anyway I was really on the fence about what method to use for truing a rem 700 if i so choose this route. I have been putting ideas together for a 22-250Ai coyote rig for about a year now so thats what sparked my interest in all this. I noticed i could save about 100 bucks by going with the jig method and i must admit it seemed like the way to go for what i was wanting. On the flip side i like nice rifles as i work hard just like we all do to afford this stuff and i want to know everything is done the best it can be. I am convene that single point is the best method but what i am still not sure is if a rem 700 is the best option. You sure can rap up a lot of money in a rem 700 but thats another subject all its own.
Im glad everyone has enjoyed this post. these are just the types of things i think about everyday. Thanks again! Lee
