• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Explaining The Awlaki Strike

Mr Silverman

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 30, 2011
2
0
50
Little Washington, VA
From the Washington Post...


Ive highlighted something that concerns me.

Explaining The Awlaki Strike

The administration should disclose why its attack was legal.


"Killing Awlaki was illegal, immoral and dangerous," read the headline of an essay by University of Notre Dame Law School professor Mary Ellen O'Connell. The piece, published over the weekend on CNN.com, criticized the Sept. 30 drone strike in Yemen that took the life of two U.S. citizens affiliated with al-Qaeda, including Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical Muslim cleric who was a leader of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

"The president and his officials know that it is unlawful to kill persons in this way outside of armed conflict hostilities," asserted Ms. O'Connell, a specialist in international law.

We disagree with this claim of illegality, but it is not easily or intuitively dismissed. <span style="color: #FF0000">After all, should not all American citizens be afforded due process of law before being summarily executed,</span> as some critics might put it? The administration should respond quickly and definitively, and there is no better way to do that than by making public a memorandum from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) that lays out the specific legal grounds and standards for the attack.

The outlines of the administration's justification for targeting an enemy outside of the battlefield are well known. In a speech last year, State Department legal adviser Harold Koh noted that the United States is at war with al-Qaeda and its affiliates and that Congress authorized the use of military force against these enemies. He also cited the right of national self-defense under international law, which allows a country to strike at enemies who pose an imminent threat. Such strikes may be carried out beyond a recognized war zone if the enemy is hiding in a country that is unwilling or unable to take action. <span style="color: #FF0000">John Brennan, a senior counterterrorism adviser to the president, reiterated these principles last month in a speech at Harvard Law School. But neither man delved into specific legal authorities nor addressed the legality of targeting an American citizen.</span>
Releasing the OLC opinion would shed light on the issues that touch on such a strike, including how the administration balanced the due-process rights of U.S. citizens with Mr. Awlaki's decision to become a belligerent. The appropriate congressional overseers should be given the opportunity to read the opinion in a classified setting; the administration could redact portions of the memo that deal with sensitive national security information, including sources and methods, and then release the memo to the public.

Refusal to do so could fuel inaccurate criticism that this president is acting no differently than his predecessor, who justified dubious enhanced-interrogation techniques through secret and now discredited "torture memos." The Bush administration used the deeply flawed torture memos as a pretext to thumb its nose at domestic laws and international strictures that prohibit cruel and inhumane treatment. Mr. Obama is acting in sync with international law in defending the country against an enemy belligerent who forfeited constitutional protections by directing hostile forces against his homeland.


At what point can the Government decide someone is a threat? Will the 'protesters' (Hippy f*cks) on Wall Street become them at some point? Just a thought that I feel a discussion should be brought up about.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Giles.S.Silverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From the Washington Post...


Ive highlighted something that concerns me.

Explaining The Awlaki Strike

The administration should disclose why its attack was legal.


"Killing Awlaki was illegal, immoral and dangerous," read the headline of an essay by University of Notre Dame Law School professor Mary Ellen O'Connell. The piece, published over the weekend on CNN.com, criticized the Sept. 30 drone strike in Yemen that took the life of two U.S. citizens affiliated with al-Qaeda, including Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical Muslim cleric who was a leader of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

"The president and his officials know that it is unlawful to kill persons in this way outside of armed conflict hostilities," asserted Ms. O'Connell, a specialist in international law.

We disagree with this claim of illegality, but it is not easily or intuitively dismissed. <span style="color: #FF0000">After all, should not all American citizens be afforded due process of law before being summarily executed,</span> as some critics might put it? The administration should respond quickly and definitively, and there is no better way to do that than by making public a memorandum from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) that lays out the specific legal grounds and standards for the attack.

The outlines of the administration's justification for targeting an enemy outside of the battlefield are well known. In a speech last year, State Department legal adviser Harold Koh noted that the United States is at war with al-Qaeda and its affiliates and that Congress authorized the use of military force against these enemies. He also cited the right of national self-defense under international law, which allows a country to strike at enemies who pose an imminent threat. Such strikes may be carried out beyond a recognized war zone if the enemy is hiding in a country that is unwilling or unable to take action. <span style="color: #FF0000">John Brennan, a senior counterterrorism adviser to the president, reiterated these principles last month in a speech at Harvard Law School. But neither man delved into specific legal authorities nor addressed the legality of targeting an American citizen.</span>
Releasing the OLC opinion would shed light on the issues that touch on such a strike, including how the administration balanced the due-process rights of U.S. citizens with Mr. Awlaki's decision to become a belligerent. The appropriate congressional overseers should be given the opportunity to read the opinion in a classified setting; the administration could redact portions of the memo that deal with sensitive national security information, including sources and methods, and then release the memo to the public.

Refusal to do so could fuel inaccurate criticism that this president is acting no differently than his predecessor, who justified dubious enhanced-interrogation techniques through secret and now discredited "torture memos." The Bush administration used the deeply flawed torture memos as a pretext to thumb its nose at domestic laws and international strictures that prohibit cruel and inhumane treatment. Mr. Obama is acting in sync with international law in defending the country against an enemy belligerent who forfeited constitutional protections by directing hostile forces against his homeland.


At what point can the Government decide someone is a threat? Will the 'protesters' (Hippy f*cks) on Wall Street become them at some point? Just a thought that I feel a discussion should be brought up about. </div></div>

An interesting post, Giles, and certainly a valid question. Unfortunately, much as my post on "Illegals children going to state funded schools" I fear that this post will rapidly deteriorate into politics and racism, and thus best deleted.

but valid question.

On a different note, how are things in Little Washington? Ive been wanting to get up to "The Inn" for supper, but hate the drive back to charlottesville after dark.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

I am going to address this from a Strategist position as opposed to a Legal one.

How do you fight an enemy that isn't a Nation State and in fact hides inside the borders of Nations that we are not at war with?

Aren't we are fighting a "Global War on Terrorism" (GWOT)? But is terrorism a person or is it an idea or is it an action? I would argue that it an action that some groups use to press their ideas home (terrorism vs terrorist). So the root problem is how do you change the people (terrorist) that have the ideas (radical Islam) that are willing to use violence and action (terrorism) to change the system (esatablish a Caliph state that embraces radical Islam).

One way to change the terrorist is to open a dialouge with them and convince them that we can all just get along in our own little worlds. We will recognize that they have the right to express their beliefs if they will allow us the same rights. But, the hard core leaders of the terrorist organizations will never switch side with the use of such soft power. They will continue to produce hatred filled propaganda to fill their ranks with poor and impressionable fighters while staying safely behind the scenes.

Another techinque is to target those terrorist organization leaders and kill them. (I know it isn't very PC to kill people, but sometime bad people need to be taken off of the battlefield) Killing a few key leaders will ultimately reduce the risk to us (and our way of life) and the foot soldiers of the terrorist organizations.

It seems pretty clear to me that Awlaki was a leader in the Al-Qada organization. An organization that declared war on the US by crashing a few planes into the Pentagon, the World Trade Center, and attempted to hit a target in Washington DC. He chose a side after war was declared. It looks like he chose poorly.

Also, if his family is so concerned with recovering his body, then I encourage them to get on a plane and fly to Yeman and go get it for themselves.

I hope that this wasn't taken as a political posting. It was meant as an opportunity to discuss the roles of good guys (US and her Allies) against the bad guys (international terrorist organizations)

Tom
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

I don't care if our drones kills POS clerics/terrorists, but 2 citizens of our country are in fact entitled to due process under our Bill of Rights, POS or not, the Liberal Bitch is correct there.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

How is he still a citizen? Because he was born here?


American by the grace of Allah, but Al-Qada by choice? Wait, that doesn't make sense to me.


If a "citizen" decides to leave the country and take up the cause of our enemy, does that citizen still have the right to the freedoms of our country? Or does that make him an enemy combatant? By definition he became a terrorist when he joined Al-Qada.

"...To support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic."

That is part of the oath that all Soliders take when they enlist in the Service. They also have to take the same oath when they re-list. It is a Federal Law that we have to swear this oath. That is our promise to the American people and we always keep our promises.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a "citizen" decides to leave the country and take up the cause of our enemy, does that citizen still have the right to the freedoms of our country? Or does that make him an enemy combatant?</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the military you join is engaged, or likely to engage, in hostilities against the U.S., your service may be viewed as an ipso facto indication of your desire to relinquish U.S. citizenship. </div></div>

Read more: How to Join the Foreign Military | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_5785771_join-foreign-military.html#ixzz1aEhdsYNA

They're dead. Next.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

What did this guy do besides speak his mind about hating his country?

Did he actively PLAN and carry out strikes against the country?

Is there evidence of such? If so why was it not presented in a court of law.

I think it does open a dangerous precedent.

I'm glad the guy is gone but what if it's a Christian next time that is unhappy with the current or future administration?

What if it was an Israeli?

It does open up a lot of questions and I don't hear a lot on the news about it...(God forbid someone loses any chance at reelection).
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Three Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is he still a citizen? Because he was born here?


American by the grace of Allah, but Al-Qada by choice? Wait, that doesn't make sense to me.


If a "citizen" decides to leave the country and take up the cause of our enemy, does that citizen still have the right to the freedoms of our country? Or does that make him an enemy combatant? By definition he became a terrorist when he joined Al-Qada.

"...To support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic."

That is part of the oath that all Soliders take when they enlist in the Service. They also have to take the same oath when they re-list. It is a Federal Law that we have to swear this oath. That is our promise to the American people and we always keep our promises. </div></div>

There was a time in this country when Treason was an offense punishable by death.

I'm with you fuck that scumbag !
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

To the gentleman that are so pleased with this assface getting the drone treatment, you are looking into the specifics of this and not as the slippery slope that it is.

First, let me explain that I'm not totally head over heels about the logic that I'm about to use but like the OP mentioned, this topic does deserve some well thought out discussion.

This man is a US citizen that has allegedly taken part in terrorist activities. You or I have no idea what exactly he did. I'm not saying what he was accused of, rather what he actaully did. I know that there are vids of the guy but what else do we, as you and I, know that he has done. In other words he has been accused by our intelligence agencies and our government without being able to refute those claims. Am I saying that he isnt' guilty........NO! I'm just saying that he was not able to defend himself against these claims in a court of law. Just some fat to chew on.

Next, and this is what really worries me.......much more than him not recieving a trial by jury. Is the fact that what is a terrorist? Appearantly it's not too hard to make it onto the terror watchlist these days. Are pro-second amendment conservatives that stash guns/ammo/food and don't have faith in our government terrorists......No. Well what if the government tells you that the quite guy from the edge of the county was plotting to attack some government facility. Does he deserve a trial?

All I'm saying is that this is a VERY slippery slope and that this topic should be discussed by Americans and not jsut be dismissed as some terrorist getting what he deserved.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To the gentleman that are so pleased with this assface getting the drone treatment, you are looking into the specifics of this and not as the slippery slope that it is.

First, let me explain that I'm not totally head over heels about the logic that I'm about to use but like the OP mentioned, this topic does deserve some well thought out discussion.

This man is a US citizen that has allegedly taken part in terrorist activities. You or I have no idea what exactly he did. I'm not saying what he was accused of, rather what he actaully did. I know that there are vids of the guy but what else do we, as you and I, know that he has done. In other words he has been accused by our intelligence agencies and our government without being able to refute those claims. Am I saying that he isnt' guilty........NO! I'm just saying that he was not able to defend himself against these claims in a court of law. Just some fat to chew on.

Next, and this is what really worries me.......much more than him not recieving a trial by jury. Is the fact that what is a terrorist? Appearantly it's not too hard to make it onto the terror watchlist these days. Are pro-second amendment conservatives that stash guns/ammo/food and don't have faith in our government terrorists......No. Well what if the government tells you that the quite guy from the edge of the county was plotting to attack some government facility. Does he deserve a trial?

All I'm saying is that this is a VERY slippery slope and that this topic should be discussed by Americans and not jsut be dismissed as some terrorist getting what he deserved. </div></div>

Some very chewable fat.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

I took an oath to support and defend the constitution against all <span style="text-decoration: underline">enemies</span> foreign and domestic. He declared war on america, and was willing to kill innocent civilians including women and children. (listen to his speeches) we're not talking about some one protesting against a government he feels is unjust we're talking about someone who endorses terrorism. He is there for a traitor and by definition an enemy.

next question.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

While some may wring their hands and ponder the technical definition of "terrorist", I'm quite proud of the fact that (in this case) our Gov didn't suffer from paralyzing indecision.

Had these individuals been content to remain in the US and engage in their terror-promoting ways, they most certainly would have had their day in court. But they chose to hook up with the enemy on foreign soil. Bad decision.

A missile strike is certainly a more humane end than they deserved.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

Let’s keep this simple. The concept and treatment of the illegal combatant has been with us for millennia or two depending on how you interpret things.

Illegal combatants have been subject to summary execution and any other treatment deemed by the capturing power. I have asked the question of many but have yet to find a case of any WWII Axis that were brought to trial etc. for their treatment of illegal combatants.

During WWII there was no question as to what was to happen to U.S. citizens encountered on the battlefield fighting for the Axis, they were killed/captured/interned as any other Axis combatant. During the 2nd battle of the Ardennes (Battle of the Bulge) the U.S. citizens fighting for the Germans in U.S. uniforms were summarily executed.

Awlaki was a self declared enemy combatant, an illegal combatant as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

Awlaki had many opportunities to turn himself in.

Awlaki was a legitimate target.

S/F, FOG
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let’s keep this simple. The concept and treatment of the illegal combatant has been with us for millennia or two depending on how you interpret things.

Illegal combatants have been subject to summary execution and any other treatment deemed by the capturing power. I have asked the question of many but have yet to find a case of any WWII Axis that were brought to trial etc. for their treatment of illegal combatants.

During WWII there was no question as to what was to happen to U.S. citizens encountered on the battlefield fighting for the Axis, they were killed/captured/interned as any other Axis combatant. During the 2nd battle of the Ardennes (Battle of the Bulge) the U.S. citizens fighting for the Germans in U.S. uniforms were summarily executed.

Awlaki was a self declared enemy combatant, an illegal combatant as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

Awlaki had many opportunities to turn himself in.

Awlaki was a legitimate target.

S/F, FOG </div></div>

Good points Fog.....guess that I really never looked at it that way. Like I mentioned in my earlier post I just think its something that we should have some good rational conversation about. I appreciate your point of view on the topic.
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

Jeo556,

The slippery slope was/is in having politicians (to include professional staff officers and JAGs) who have not actually read the Geneva and Hague conventions but just made/make stuff up to claim that illegal combatants were legal enemy combatants.

Not id’ing and dealing with illegal combatants has lead to far worse situations for over two thousand years, it was an old problem for Cicero.

S/F, FOG
 
Re: Explaining The Awlaki Strike

I dont have issue with the act of bringing him down but as others have stated where is the line drawn.

The goverment can revoke citizenship in which case this would not have been an issue. That simple act would have changed the entire view I have on this.