I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension?
- Thread starter Sgt_Jamez
- Start date
Re: Case neck turning?
Buy a case neck thickness indicator / ball micrometer. It will tell you more than the soot pattern will and you will need it if you turn necks anyway.
Buy a case neck thickness indicator / ball micrometer. It will tell you more than the soot pattern will and you will need it if you turn necks anyway.
Re: Case neck turning?
Yes, turning necks helps with consistent neck tension.
Terry
Yes, turning necks helps with consistent neck tension.
Terry
Re: Case neck turning?
Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
</div></div>
Better concentricity and less variation in neck tension. You can take too much off, but with Lapua, you can turn and end up thicker than WIN brass out of the box.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
</div></div>
Better concentricity and less variation in neck tension. You can take too much off, but with Lapua, you can turn and end up thicker than WIN brass out of the box.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
</div></div>
Better concentricity and less variation in neck tension. You can take too much off, but with Lapua, you can turn and end up thicker than WIN brass out of the box. </div></div>
OP did not specify Lapua. What if he wants to turn WW? It will get too thin way before it gets uniform, IMHO.
I do agree that a light turn on Lapua will be more than acceptable, but I don't usually find it necessary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why turn necks if you don't have a tight neck?
If you turn enough to clean them up completely I think you will take too much off.
Just my .02
</div></div>
Better concentricity and less variation in neck tension. You can take too much off, but with Lapua, you can turn and end up thicker than WIN brass out of the box. </div></div>
OP did not specify Lapua. What if he wants to turn WW? It will get too thin way before it gets uniform, IMHO.
I do agree that a light turn on Lapua will be more than acceptable, but I don't usually find it necessary.
Re: Case neck turning?
Some of my .308 brass is Lapua but most of it is Win. Is Winchester brass too thin to be turned?
Some of my .308 brass is Lapua but most of it is Win. Is Winchester brass too thin to be turned?
Re: Case neck turning?
427...please explain why turning is recommended especially for thin walled necks in a large chamber. Thanks.
427...please explain why turning is recommended especially for thin walled necks in a large chamber. Thanks.
Re: Case neck turning?
I think he made a typo. I think he meant to say that he does not recommend turning 308 WIN brass.
I think he made a typo. I think he meant to say that he does not recommend turning 308 WIN brass.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do agree that a light turn on Lapua will be more than acceptable, but I don't usually find it necessary.</div></div>
Lapua is usually pretty consistent, but not all lots. In the time it takes me to measure and see how consistent my lot of Lapua is, I can just skim turn them. My turner is all set up to do it, and really, turning doesn't take so much time when you look at it as something that needs to be done once over the life of a case. At the time, it sucks, and might result in a missed shooting session that week.
It really only takes part of an evening to turn 100 cases.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do agree that a light turn on Lapua will be more than acceptable, but I don't usually find it necessary.</div></div>
Lapua is usually pretty consistent, but not all lots. In the time it takes me to measure and see how consistent my lot of Lapua is, I can just skim turn them. My turner is all set up to do it, and really, turning doesn't take so much time when you look at it as something that needs to be done once over the life of a case. At the time, it sucks, and might result in a missed shooting session that week.
It really only takes part of an evening to turn 100 cases.
Re: Case neck turning?
Good info. If Win brass is too thin to be neck turned... it makes me wonder how thin is too thin? If Win brass can't be fully turned, would it benefit from a skim turn as mentioned?
Good info. If Win brass is too thin to be neck turned... it makes me wonder how thin is too thin? If Win brass can't be fully turned, would it benefit from a skim turn as mentioned?
Re: Case neck turning?
I think the only possible reason to neck turn thin wall cases would be if you were using a bushing neck sizer and no expander ball. A clean up turn (about 60%) would keep the ID more concentric.
I think the only possible reason to neck turn thin wall cases would be if you were using a bushing neck sizer and no expander ball. A clean up turn (about 60%) would keep the ID more concentric.
Re: Case neck turning?
Win brass can be turned, but in a factory barrel, it will leave too much neck clearance. In a custom barrel, you can spec a tighter neck that is still technically a no turn neck... like a minimum SAAMI neck.
Lapua, Federal, Lake City, and Norma brass is so thick, you can hit 100% of the neck and still be thicker than Win brass. Win brass is incredibly thin. The nice thing about that is more case capacity. The negative is that thinner is not quite as strong and you don't have room to turn necks without leaving excessive clearance.
Win brass can be turned, but in a factory barrel, it will leave too much neck clearance. In a custom barrel, you can spec a tighter neck that is still technically a no turn neck... like a minimum SAAMI neck.
Lapua, Federal, Lake City, and Norma brass is so thick, you can hit 100% of the neck and still be thicker than Win brass. Win brass is incredibly thin. The nice thing about that is more case capacity. The negative is that thinner is not quite as strong and you don't have room to turn necks without leaving excessive clearance.
Re: Case neck turning?
All brass from the best quality to the worst has variations in neck thickness. If you decide to turn brass for a chamber that doesn't have a specific small neck size be certain to turn it just a little. You likely won't be able to clean up the necks without running the danger of split necks.
All brass from the best quality to the worst has variations in neck thickness. If you decide to turn brass for a chamber that doesn't have a specific small neck size be certain to turn it just a little. You likely won't be able to clean up the necks without running the danger of split necks.
Re: Case neck turning?
I kiss the necks on all my virgin .308 WW brass and though I don't load hot 2650 fps, I also anneal each cycle and they have 13 cycles now with no issues. I don't think cleaning up the necks on any brass mfg'r will hurt even if loading hot. Although I don't find it needed on my Lapua or Nosler Custom, it's just that good.
Sully
I kiss the necks on all my virgin .308 WW brass and though I don't load hot 2650 fps, I also anneal each cycle and they have 13 cycles now with no issues. I don't think cleaning up the necks on any brass mfg'r will hurt even if loading hot. Although I don't find it needed on my Lapua or Nosler Custom, it's just that good.
Sully
Re: Case neck turning?
Neck sooting relates to neck sealing.
IMHO the more likely factor in sooting is neck brass hardness. As necks get reworked, they get harder, and after several reloading cycles, they can have problems expanding properly to achieve effective sealing.
This is independent of neck thickness.
IMHO, chamber necks with larger clearancs, like SAAMI spec necks, get less benefit from neck turning.
Greg
Neck sooting relates to neck sealing.
IMHO the more likely factor in sooting is neck brass hardness. As necks get reworked, they get harder, and after several reloading cycles, they can have problems expanding properly to achieve effective sealing.
This is independent of neck thickness.
IMHO, chamber necks with larger clearancs, like SAAMI spec necks, get less benefit from neck turning.
Greg
Re: Case neck turning?
Yup, that's why I anneal each cycle
Yup, that's why I anneal each cycle
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Win brass can be turned, but in a factory barrel, it will leave too much neck clearance. </div></div>
How much clearance is too much? My 260 necks are expanding .008 after neck turning. So theres .008 clearance after turning. How much is too much?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Win brass can be turned, but in a factory barrel, it will leave too much neck clearance. </div></div>
How much clearance is too much? My 260 necks are expanding .008 after neck turning. So theres .008 clearance after turning. How much is too much?
Re: Case neck turning?
Ideal clearance for tactical ammo it .003", those bench rest folks use .0015". My 260 expand .0035" my .308 expand .004".
Ideal clearance for tactical ammo it .003", those bench rest folks use .0015". My 260 expand .0035" my .308 expand .004".
Re: Case neck turning?
Any disadvantage of too much clearance besides premature neck splits?
Any disadvantage of too much clearance besides premature neck splits?
Re: Case neck turning?
Once again, the only advantage to turning necks on cases used in standard chambers is when you are using bushing dies to size the necks. A concentric OD is necessary for a concentric ID. If you use a Redding S type FL bushing die with the expander ball then you have the ability to lightly size the neck and then expand it to a concentric inside diameter using the expander ball so no neck turning is necessary. I changed my standard expander ball to a free floating carbide expander ball which self centers and requires no lube. Hope this helps.
Once again, the only advantage to turning necks on cases used in standard chambers is when you are using bushing dies to size the necks. A concentric OD is necessary for a concentric ID. If you use a Redding S type FL bushing die with the expander ball then you have the ability to lightly size the neck and then expand it to a concentric inside diameter using the expander ball so no neck turning is necessary. I changed my standard expander ball to a free floating carbide expander ball which self centers and requires no lube. Hope this helps.
Re: Case neck turning?
Case neck turning with conventional chambers has little to recommend itself. If you do decide to turn the necks be certain to only just "touch" the neck, don't try to completely clean it up. There are *no* dies, including the Wilson neck size die used by benchrest shooters, that can help avoid a variation in neck thickness. But keep in mind that benchrest shooters, who always neck turn all cases, have smaller than industry necks when they're chambered for competition
Case neck turning with conventional chambers has little to recommend itself. If you do decide to turn the necks be certain to only just "touch" the neck, don't try to completely clean it up. There are *no* dies, including the Wilson neck size die used by benchrest shooters, that can help avoid a variation in neck thickness. But keep in mind that benchrest shooters, who always neck turn all cases, have smaller than industry necks when they're chambered for competition
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ehparis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are *no* dies, including the Wilson neck size die used by benchrest shooters, that can help avoid a variation in neck thickness.</div></div>
Agreed. the dies do not avoid variation in neck thickness.... Benchrest shooters use bushing dies and neck turning to regulate neck tension (generally on the light side). They must turn the neck so that when the bushing sizes the outside the inside will be concentric. By using chambers with tight necks the expansion of the case neck is kept to a minimum which prolongs case life and reduces work hardening of the brass (which keeps the neck tension more consistent).
As I said, the only reason to turn necks for standard chambers is to keep neck tension consistent when using bushing neck dies. A better way would be to use the Redding FL S bushing die with an expander ball and NOT turn the neck. You get the same result. (the hole where the bullet goes is round and consistently the same size. An advantage to using the bushing die is that you can regulate how much the neck is reduced unlike standard dies which can overwork the brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ehparis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are *no* dies, including the Wilson neck size die used by benchrest shooters, that can help avoid a variation in neck thickness.</div></div>
Agreed. the dies do not avoid variation in neck thickness.... Benchrest shooters use bushing dies and neck turning to regulate neck tension (generally on the light side). They must turn the neck so that when the bushing sizes the outside the inside will be concentric. By using chambers with tight necks the expansion of the case neck is kept to a minimum which prolongs case life and reduces work hardening of the brass (which keeps the neck tension more consistent).
As I said, the only reason to turn necks for standard chambers is to keep neck tension consistent when using bushing neck dies. A better way would be to use the Redding FL S bushing die with an expander ball and NOT turn the neck. You get the same result. (the hole where the bullet goes is round and consistently the same size. An advantage to using the bushing die is that you can regulate how much the neck is reduced unlike standard dies which can overwork the brass.
Re: Case neck turning?
I hate to ask this but when is brass to thin? Not being a smart ass but at what point is it too thin? .013?????
Just a need to know thing here. not to thread bump..
I hate to ask this but when is brass to thin? Not being a smart ass but at what point is it too thin? .013?????
Just a need to know thing here. not to thread bump..
Re: Case neck turning?
A practical approach to neck walls, regardless of what dies, or what brass, or what chamber you have, is to begin by understanding what is going on here.
The illustration below, albeit exagerated, shows a thick/thin neck, which is present to some degree in ANY brass you buy. Some are worse than others, but the brass manufacturing process is far from perfect enough to generate a perfectly concentric neck wall to the thousandth of an inch. This is why neck turners were invented in the first place.
"A" being the thin side, "B" being the thick side, and "C" being the "neck" of the sizing die, or bushing, or whatever, with the brass forced into it. Your die will force the brass back into as concentric of a circle as the reamer was that created it. What this means is that the brass is to spec on the outside of the case, with any variations being forced inward to the interior.
In the case of neck walls, the outside of the neck will be "perfectly" round and concentric, but the inside will be off of center with everthing else, to the amount of the difference of the thick side from the thin side, as shown in the pic.
Let's say that "A" is .013" thick, and "B" is .017" thick. That's a difference of .004". Regardless of the chamber you are using this starts the bullet out with an unacceptable amount of TIR.....not really good for "accuracy", if accuracy is the goal.
The only way to resolve this is to turn the .017" thick side of the neck down to close to the .013" thick side. In the practical application of this, if it's done right, the thicker portions of the neck are skim cut by the neck turning tool, the halfway in between portions are feathered out, and the thin side isn't even touched. This creates a better relationship to concentricity with the bore when the case is run into the die the next time.
Those who say turning necks for a "standard" chamber is not necessary simply do not understand the mechanics that TIR plays in the equation of accuracy, and the magic of starting a bullet out straight. If you are careful not to reduce the thin side of the case neck, and only skim off the thick side, then what is hurt regarding neck integrity, and how much is gained regarding reduced runout? What exactly is the difference between a thick/thin neck blown out to a standard chamber, and an even neck, other than, with the even neck, the interior of the neck now being concentric? How exactly does neck tension become affected to any derogatory degree with the neck now being an even .013" thick all through instead of thick/thin?
Turning the thick side of my necks off is a key part of my system, which produces very low runout, and all I shoot are standard chambers......
A practical approach to neck walls, regardless of what dies, or what brass, or what chamber you have, is to begin by understanding what is going on here.
The illustration below, albeit exagerated, shows a thick/thin neck, which is present to some degree in ANY brass you buy. Some are worse than others, but the brass manufacturing process is far from perfect enough to generate a perfectly concentric neck wall to the thousandth of an inch. This is why neck turners were invented in the first place.
"A" being the thin side, "B" being the thick side, and "C" being the "neck" of the sizing die, or bushing, or whatever, with the brass forced into it. Your die will force the brass back into as concentric of a circle as the reamer was that created it. What this means is that the brass is to spec on the outside of the case, with any variations being forced inward to the interior.
In the case of neck walls, the outside of the neck will be "perfectly" round and concentric, but the inside will be off of center with everthing else, to the amount of the difference of the thick side from the thin side, as shown in the pic.
Let's say that "A" is .013" thick, and "B" is .017" thick. That's a difference of .004". Regardless of the chamber you are using this starts the bullet out with an unacceptable amount of TIR.....not really good for "accuracy", if accuracy is the goal.
The only way to resolve this is to turn the .017" thick side of the neck down to close to the .013" thick side. In the practical application of this, if it's done right, the thicker portions of the neck are skim cut by the neck turning tool, the halfway in between portions are feathered out, and the thin side isn't even touched. This creates a better relationship to concentricity with the bore when the case is run into the die the next time.
Those who say turning necks for a "standard" chamber is not necessary simply do not understand the mechanics that TIR plays in the equation of accuracy, and the magic of starting a bullet out straight. If you are careful not to reduce the thin side of the case neck, and only skim off the thick side, then what is hurt regarding neck integrity, and how much is gained regarding reduced runout? What exactly is the difference between a thick/thin neck blown out to a standard chamber, and an even neck, other than, with the even neck, the interior of the neck now being concentric? How exactly does neck tension become affected to any derogatory degree with the neck now being an even .013" thick all through instead of thick/thin?
Turning the thick side of my necks off is a key part of my system, which produces very low runout, and all I shoot are standard chambers......
Re: Case neck turning?
OK... Sometimes I wonder about this kind of stuff. I'm sitting here scratching my head thinking Hmmm... I full-length small-base resize my 7.62X51 Lake City Match Brass every time. I always trim it to 2.015". I always seat my 168gr. SMK's to 2.800 with no crimp. My favorite powder is RE-15 and my pet load is 41gr. I've reloaded the same brass at least 10 times and have never done anything special to it. It's even a mixed batch with some date stamped 1970, some 1972 and some 1982. I tumble it once when I get home from the range and then again after I size and de-prime it just to remove the lube. My reloads are absolutely capable of punching through the same hole every time. I really see no point in turning, annealing or any other voo-doo magic special treatment of my brass. When it splits, I'll trash it. Until then I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. No offense meant, I just don't find any of the special treatment of brass necessary. FWIW...
OK... Sometimes I wonder about this kind of stuff. I'm sitting here scratching my head thinking Hmmm... I full-length small-base resize my 7.62X51 Lake City Match Brass every time. I always trim it to 2.015". I always seat my 168gr. SMK's to 2.800 with no crimp. My favorite powder is RE-15 and my pet load is 41gr. I've reloaded the same brass at least 10 times and have never done anything special to it. It's even a mixed batch with some date stamped 1970, some 1972 and some 1982. I tumble it once when I get home from the range and then again after I size and de-prime it just to remove the lube. My reloads are absolutely capable of punching through the same hole every time. I really see no point in turning, annealing or any other voo-doo magic special treatment of my brass. When it splits, I'll trash it. Until then I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. No offense meant, I just don't find any of the special treatment of brass necessary. FWIW...
Re: Case neck turning?
How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time?
How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time?
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time? </div></div>
he forgot to add the qualifier: "If I do my part"
But, I run tight necks on my accuracy stuff and use Wilson dies. So, I know what I have to do to my necks, the diameter is stamped on the barrel right after the caliber. Anyway, I might have said sometime in the past that neck turning for factory rifle barrels has limited advantage, as long as you aren't expecting miracles.
The thing that has me scratching my head is the poster says he is using mixed cases! And neck turning! WTF is going on here? All I can say is; it can't hurt. Maybe. BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time? </div></div>
he forgot to add the qualifier: "If I do my part"
But, I run tight necks on my accuracy stuff and use Wilson dies. So, I know what I have to do to my necks, the diameter is stamped on the barrel right after the caliber. Anyway, I might have said sometime in the past that neck turning for factory rifle barrels has limited advantage, as long as you aren't expecting miracles.
The thing that has me scratching my head is the poster says he is using mixed cases! And neck turning! WTF is going on here? All I can say is; it can't hurt. Maybe. BB
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time? </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">he forgot to add the qualifier: "If I do my part</span>"
But, I run tight necks on my accuracy stuff and use Wilson dies. So, I know what I have to do to my necks, the diameter is stamped on the barrel right after the caliber. Anyway, I might have said sometime in the past that neck turning for factory rifle barrels has limited advantage, as long as you aren't expecting miracles.
The thing that has me scratching my head is the poster says he is using mixed cases! And neck turning! WTF is going on here? All I can say is; it can't hurt. Maybe. BB </div></div>
I won't be so bold to say that... The keys to accuracy are Consistency and Repeatability. The whole Universe has to do its part to put them ALL through one hole. But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me... And I have done it all in the past.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know your reloads are capable of punching through the same hole every time? Is it because you are punching your bullets through the same hole every time? </div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">he forgot to add the qualifier: "If I do my part</span>"
But, I run tight necks on my accuracy stuff and use Wilson dies. So, I know what I have to do to my necks, the diameter is stamped on the barrel right after the caliber. Anyway, I might have said sometime in the past that neck turning for factory rifle barrels has limited advantage, as long as you aren't expecting miracles.
The thing that has me scratching my head is the poster says he is using mixed cases! And neck turning! WTF is going on here? All I can say is; it can't hurt. Maybe. BB </div></div>
I won't be so bold to say that... The keys to accuracy are Consistency and Repeatability. The whole Universe has to do its part to put them ALL through one hole. But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me... And I have done it all in the past.
Re: Case neck turning?
But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me...
I have never seen or heard of these statements before in my life.
But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me...
I have never seen or heard of these statements before in my life.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TravisB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me...
I have never seen or heard of these statements before in my life. </div></div>
And?......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TravisB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But my reloads are coming out within a few FPS of each other. My main point was that turning necks, annealing and any other special treatment of brass hasn't yielded any improvement in accuracy or longevity for me...
I have never seen or heard of these statements before in my life. </div></div>
And?......
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension?</div></div>
ABSOLUTELY............!!!!!
bill larson
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension?</div></div>
ABSOLUTELY............!!!!!
bill larson
Re: Case neck turning?
Neck turning is easy once you get set up. It definately does create even neck tension which in turn will lead to better accuracy and fewer fliers. It is said that it also may be a big help in preventing splitting of the necks down the road.
I feel that if you use bushing dies and don't neck turn, you are not fully taking advantage of the dies. I try to make my brass as uniform as possible to try for the best accuracy I can get. I do all the tedious steps along the way. Maybe some of them are a waste of time, according to some people, but I feel they can only help and can't hurt.
Sure you can remove too much brass and ruin cases, but if you take your time with the setup and take a little off at a time, you won't have a problem. I have seen cases where there is .025 or more neck deviation in thickness. .001 or less, I don't turn, but more I do. .002 or more, I chuck the case as I believe the difference in thickness runs up into the shoulder and body.
I have 2 rifles that have tight chambers and the brass needs to be neck turned. They are turned so that the loaded case is .0025 to .003 smaller than the chamber. I know some benchrest shooters that shoot 6PPCs that have to turn necks to .009 to chamber their rounds.
Until one measures his brass on a neck thickness tool, you will never realize how much a case can deviate. Will that hurt accuracy? Definately, but I guess it depends on what you want out of your rifle. If you have went to the expense of having a custom rifle made with a good tube and a trued action, I feel neck turning is imperative. If you are happy with 3/4" groups that you may get from a factory rifle, then it is unnecessary.
Neck turning is easy once you get set up. It definately does create even neck tension which in turn will lead to better accuracy and fewer fliers. It is said that it also may be a big help in preventing splitting of the necks down the road.
I feel that if you use bushing dies and don't neck turn, you are not fully taking advantage of the dies. I try to make my brass as uniform as possible to try for the best accuracy I can get. I do all the tedious steps along the way. Maybe some of them are a waste of time, according to some people, but I feel they can only help and can't hurt.
Sure you can remove too much brass and ruin cases, but if you take your time with the setup and take a little off at a time, you won't have a problem. I have seen cases where there is .025 or more neck deviation in thickness. .001 or less, I don't turn, but more I do. .002 or more, I chuck the case as I believe the difference in thickness runs up into the shoulder and body.
I have 2 rifles that have tight chambers and the brass needs to be neck turned. They are turned so that the loaded case is .0025 to .003 smaller than the chamber. I know some benchrest shooters that shoot 6PPCs that have to turn necks to .009 to chamber their rounds.
Until one measures his brass on a neck thickness tool, you will never realize how much a case can deviate. Will that hurt accuracy? Definately, but I guess it depends on what you want out of your rifle. If you have went to the expense of having a custom rifle made with a good tube and a trued action, I feel neck turning is imperative. If you are happy with 3/4" groups that you may get from a factory rifle, then it is unnecessary.
Re: Case neck turning?
.243 Win necked up to 260Rem, Annealed, Turned to .0135
I'm cheap, the money I have saved by using Win 7-08 or Win 243 resized in to 260Rem has paid for my neck turner, its a one time deal, its also alot of work, but my targets have shown a marked improvement in group reduction, concentricity is nil, and my confidence high in my ammo\equipment.
.243 Win necked up to 260Rem, Annealed, Turned to .0135
I'm cheap, the money I have saved by using Win 7-08 or Win 243 resized in to 260Rem has paid for my neck turner, its a one time deal, its also alot of work, but my targets have shown a marked improvement in group reduction, concentricity is nil, and my confidence high in my ammo\equipment.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Save your time and go shoot instead. The benefits are toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo small to waist your time with the process.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Save your time and go shoot instead. The benefits are toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo small to waist your time with the process.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Save your time and go shoot instead. The benefits are toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo small to waist your time with the process. </div></div>
Depends. Once you start to peel back layers, you begin to see things that you never thought of, previously. Ignorance is bliss. BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Save your time and go shoot instead. The benefits are toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo small to waist your time with the process. </div></div>
Depends. Once you start to peel back layers, you begin to see things that you never thought of, previously. Ignorance is bliss. BB
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Yes it would.
Measure the amount of neck expansion from a loaded round to a fired round. Some chambers are ridiculous, like 12 thou expansion on a DPMS 308 I had. I wouldn't turn in this case. You can always measure neck thickness and toss the gnarly ones. Some rifles are 6-7 thou expansion. Taking a thou or less off "60-80%" of the neck isn't going to matter much as far as expansion goes but will make neck tension more consistent.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sgt_Jamez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I notice both my .308 and my .22-250 have varying soot patterns on the case necks. I am thinking this is from uneven brass thickness. Would a light turning to knock down these high areas help create more consistent neck tension? </div></div>
Yes it would.
Measure the amount of neck expansion from a loaded round to a fired round. Some chambers are ridiculous, like 12 thou expansion on a DPMS 308 I had. I wouldn't turn in this case. You can always measure neck thickness and toss the gnarly ones. Some rifles are 6-7 thou expansion. Taking a thou or less off "60-80%" of the neck isn't going to matter much as far as expansion goes but will make neck tension more consistent.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes it would.
Taking a thou or less off "60-80%" of the neck isn't going to matter much as far as expansion goes but will make neck tension more consistent. </div></div>
assuming your scenario, a rather generous chamber and neck diameter....how much can this gentleman "really" expect to improve his accuracy? Marginal, if any? And why I think half measures are (largely) a waste of time. Personal opinion. BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes it would.
Taking a thou or less off "60-80%" of the neck isn't going to matter much as far as expansion goes but will make neck tension more consistent. </div></div>
assuming your scenario, a rather generous chamber and neck diameter....how much can this gentleman "really" expect to improve his accuracy? Marginal, if any? And why I think half measures are (largely) a waste of time. Personal opinion. BB
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: esromvre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate to ask this but when is brass to thin? Not being a smart ass but at what point is it too thin? .013?????
Just a need to know thing here. not to thread bump.. </div></div>
I can't say for sure, but if you anneal every round you can get away with some pretty darn thin brass...Maybe I will try turning some WW 223 down for fun...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: esromvre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate to ask this but when is brass to thin? Not being a smart ass but at what point is it too thin? .013?????
Just a need to know thing here. not to thread bump.. </div></div>
I can't say for sure, but if you anneal every round you can get away with some pretty darn thin brass...Maybe I will try turning some WW 223 down for fun...
Re: Case neck turning?
I should tell you my nightmare 243wssm story, arrggg. I get tired of mentioning it and I think others get tired of reading it. Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case (pun intended,LOL). Now if the necks are pretty consistent to begin with then the improvement could be negligible. Like you mentioned in a couple posts up. Once the neck turning process begins "Peeling back layers" a person see's how uneven some of those cases really are in the necks.
Which gets me thinking...The whole theory behind "any" brass prep at all is to make all the cases as close to each other as possible in the hopes of brass consistency narrowing group dispersion(flyers), right???
Personally my main rifles have tight necks so every case I have for them is within .0002 from one side of the neck to the other, most are less.
I should tell you my nightmare 243wssm story, arrggg. I get tired of mentioning it and I think others get tired of reading it. Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case (pun intended,LOL). Now if the necks are pretty consistent to begin with then the improvement could be negligible. Like you mentioned in a couple posts up. Once the neck turning process begins "Peeling back layers" a person see's how uneven some of those cases really are in the necks.
Which gets me thinking...The whole theory behind "any" brass prep at all is to make all the cases as close to each other as possible in the hopes of brass consistency narrowing group dispersion(flyers), right???
Personally my main rifles have tight necks so every case I have for them is within .0002 from one side of the neck to the other, most are less.
Re: Case neck turning?
I don't have a problem with a man truing up his necks. My problem is in expectations. There are people, (with short attention spans) that won't bother to wade through an entire conversation, and instead hang their hopes and dreams for their decidedly average factory rifle, (with the stock trigger) on this:
"Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case"
Then, our hero "light turns" his mixed brass, thinking this is the secret weapon. (pun intended) <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Next, they tumble in SS media, the resulting brilliance improves accuracy immensely.</span>
I go to unreasonable lengths in pursuit of accuracy, but (at least) I have a tenuous grasp on logic and a sober evaluation of my talent, such as it is. BB
I don't have a problem with a man truing up his necks. My problem is in expectations. There are people, (with short attention spans) that won't bother to wade through an entire conversation, and instead hang their hopes and dreams for their decidedly average factory rifle, (with the stock trigger) on this:
"Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case"
Then, our hero "light turns" his mixed brass, thinking this is the secret weapon. (pun intended) <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Next, they tumble in SS media, the resulting brilliance improves accuracy immensely.</span>
I go to unreasonable lengths in pursuit of accuracy, but (at least) I have a tenuous grasp on logic and a sober evaluation of my talent, such as it is. BB
Re: Case neck turning?
We get it. Others tumble in SS media. You don't. Let it go.
We get it. Others tumble in SS media. You don't. Let it go.
Re: Case neck turning?
I KNOW YOU GET IT.
I'M TRYING TO HELP THE IMPRESSIONABLE NEW GUY.
SOMEBODY HAS TO DO IT.
WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?
Okay, perhaps a short time out? The message has been sent, and understood.
Now, is there anything else I can do, while I'm here..... for the assembled control freaks? (don't answer) BB
I KNOW YOU GET IT.
I'M TRYING TO HELP THE IMPRESSIONABLE NEW GUY.
SOMEBODY HAS TO DO IT.
WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?
Okay, perhaps a short time out? The message has been sent, and understood.
Now, is there anything else I can do, while I'm here..... for the assembled control freaks? (don't answer) BB
Re: Case neck turning?
I have a pumpkin turner. It is by Don Nielson. You can buy the turner from Bruno Shooting Supplies. You need to get an expanding mandrel to get the case mouth at the proper diameter.
I understand the latest generation of Sinclair's turners are quite good. Also, Stiller was making a turner similar to the pumpkin at much cheaper price. I don't know if he still makes those. He wasn't when I bought mine. I understand he started making them again. Who knows these days?
I have a pumpkin turner. It is by Don Nielson. You can buy the turner from Bruno Shooting Supplies. You need to get an expanding mandrel to get the case mouth at the proper diameter.
I understand the latest generation of Sinclair's turners are quite good. Also, Stiller was making a turner similar to the pumpkin at much cheaper price. I don't know if he still makes those. He wasn't when I bought mine. I understand he started making them again. Who knows these days?
Re: Case neck turning?
I guess I should mention what you should look for. You want a thick carbide blade. The carbide prevents the blade from galling. The larger blade acts like a heat sink. The wide blade on my turner leads to nice clean cuts that don't leave the neck grooved like a record player. That said, I don't think the grooves make any difference after fireforming.
I guess I should mention what you should look for. You want a thick carbide blade. The carbide prevents the blade from galling. The larger blade acts like a heat sink. The wide blade on my turner leads to nice clean cuts that don't leave the neck grooved like a record player. That said, I don't think the grooves make any difference after fireforming.
Re: Case neck turning?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a problem with a man truing up his necks. My problem is in expectations. There are people, (with short attention spans) that won't bother to wade through an entire conversation, and instead hang their hopes and dreams for their decidedly average factory rifle, (with the stock trigger) on this:
"Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case"
Then, our hero "light turns" his mixed brass, thinking this is the secret weapon. (pun intended) Next, they tumble in SS media, the resulting brilliance improves accuracy immensely.
I go to unreasonable lengths in pursuit of accuracy, but (at least) I have a tenuous grasp on logic and a sober evaluation of my talent, such as it is. BB </div></div>
Well I agree with you about the mixed brass but I have faith the OP knows to keep em separate.
About the stock 243wssm I mentioned... neck turning changed this rifle from being worthy of a trash can at 2.5 MOA to shooting halfway decent/1.5 MOA. All 200 brass were the same lot number but far and away the worst brass I've ever seen. By the time I cleaned the necks there was 10 thou expansion, way more than I'd like of course. I'm sure both neck concentricity and consequently more consistent neck tension played a part. It was the secret weapon!
That's "immensely" intense that you mentioned the SS media method in the same thread with neck turning,LOL. Shiny secret weapon after a trim.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a problem with a man truing up his necks. My problem is in expectations. There are people, (with short attention spans) that won't bother to wade through an entire conversation, and instead hang their hopes and dreams for their decidedly average factory rifle, (with the stock trigger) on this:
"Anyways... a light neck turning helped immensely with accuracy in this case"
Then, our hero "light turns" his mixed brass, thinking this is the secret weapon. (pun intended) Next, they tumble in SS media, the resulting brilliance improves accuracy immensely.
I go to unreasonable lengths in pursuit of accuracy, but (at least) I have a tenuous grasp on logic and a sober evaluation of my talent, such as it is. BB </div></div>
Well I agree with you about the mixed brass but I have faith the OP knows to keep em separate.
About the stock 243wssm I mentioned... neck turning changed this rifle from being worthy of a trash can at 2.5 MOA to shooting halfway decent/1.5 MOA. All 200 brass were the same lot number but far and away the worst brass I've ever seen. By the time I cleaned the necks there was 10 thou expansion, way more than I'd like of course. I'm sure both neck concentricity and consequently more consistent neck tension played a part. It was the secret weapon!
That's "immensely" intense that you mentioned the SS media method in the same thread with neck turning,LOL. Shiny secret weapon after a trim.
Re: Case neck turning?
Great... another step. Just noticed variation on my necks (win) after trimming and chamfering so got to measuring and am seeing .001-.002 variation on a few.
I guess that is too much for a FTR gun? Factory chamber.
Or am I worrying about this too much?
Great... another step. Just noticed variation on my necks (win) after trimming and chamfering so got to measuring and am seeing .001-.002 variation on a few.
I guess that is too much for a FTR gun? Factory chamber.
Or am I worrying about this too much?
