i dont know if this is the right section but thought it might be approriate. im shooting a match at the end of the month and there will be 600 yard movers. about what lead do i need on them. i know some bullets will travel faster, im shooting hornady 168 grain bthp with 44.5g of varget dont know the fps
- Thread starter pistolpacknpete
- Start date
Re: shooting movers
regular walking speed
regular walking speed
Re: shooting movers
couple of words "get a chronograph", without it your just rolling the dice. any number you get is just pulled out of thin air at BEST. Stink allot at worst. LOL!
couple of words "get a chronograph", without it your just rolling the dice. any number you get is just pulled out of thin air at BEST. Stink allot at worst. LOL!
Re: shooting movers
ya i know i need a chrono but its not on my priority list. a friend has one i guess i can borrow it from him.
ya i know i need a chrono but its not on my priority list. a friend has one i guess i can borrow it from him.
Re: shooting movers
guess ill learn the hard way and shoot the first match and see what i need to do. ill prolly go to a practice and ask for some movers
guess ill learn the hard way and shoot the first match and see what i need to do. ill prolly go to a practice and ask for some movers
Re: shooting movers
ok what would u need? obviously fps right
ok what would u need? obviously fps right
Re: shooting movers
You basically need to know what your Load is doing ? ,Find out what the lead is . & then practice it .
& do you want to practice with, Dialing the Elev. Holdover & use Ret. Hold ? . or manual dial the lead on your mover hold ?
No expert on shooting movers out to 600 . I like using plain MilDot Ret. over others like TMR or fine subtension marked Ret. on movers . (for me) just Seemed easier to Dial the Hold-Over & just spot & move relative to target when using the bolder/heavier standard Mil. Ret. & not dial Turret for the moving target .
But if you got a duplex or other or want to manual dial a lead hold, that is up to you . It's whatever you practice with, that is going to work .
If you have never shot a mover before . you will likely need more hold than you think . & generally it is going to start around 2-Mil.+ mark & move bigger from there .
for example. ( for 600 yard) . my 175's @ 2600 on the Perry say's 9.5 MOA lead . With a 4-mph static/move speed .
.
You basically need to know what your Load is doing ? ,Find out what the lead is . & then practice it .
& do you want to practice with, Dialing the Elev. Holdover & use Ret. Hold ? . or manual dial the lead on your mover hold ?
No expert on shooting movers out to 600 . I like using plain MilDot Ret. over others like TMR or fine subtension marked Ret. on movers . (for me) just Seemed easier to Dial the Hold-Over & just spot & move relative to target when using the bolder/heavier standard Mil. Ret. & not dial Turret for the moving target .
But if you got a duplex or other or want to manual dial a lead hold, that is up to you . It's whatever you practice with, that is going to work .
If you have never shot a mover before . you will likely need more hold than you think . & generally it is going to start around 2-Mil.+ mark & move bigger from there .
for example. ( for 600 yard) . my 175's @ 2600 on the Perry say's 9.5 MOA lead . With a 4-mph static/move speed .
.
Re: shooting movers
yea i have the pst in moa. i plan on dialing in elevation and using hold over on the left to right movers. then of course add the corresponding wind.
yea i have the pst in moa. i plan on dialing in elevation and using hold over on the left to right movers. then of course add the corresponding wind.
Re: shooting movers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: midkansasguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">guess ill learn the hard way and shoot the first match and see what i need to do. ill prolly go to a practice and ask for some movers </div></div>
"the only way to get good at shooting movers is to shoot movers"...Jacob Bynum
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: midkansasguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">guess ill learn the hard way and shoot the first match and see what i need to do. ill prolly go to a practice and ask for some movers </div></div>
"the only way to get good at shooting movers is to shoot movers"...Jacob Bynum
Re: shooting movers
Time Of Flight (Target FPS) = Lead in Feet
then
Lead in Feet (.3084) = Lead in Meters
then
Lead in Meters (1000)/ Distance meters = Lead in Mils
Mils(3.44) = MOA
so it sounds like you need your velocity, and a ballistics calculator to get your time of flight. Then you're in business.
C_K
Time Of Flight (Target FPS) = Lead in Feet
then
Lead in Feet (.3084) = Lead in Meters
then
Lead in Meters (1000)/ Distance meters = Lead in Mils
Mils(3.44) = MOA
so it sounds like you need your velocity, and a ballistics calculator to get your time of flight. Then you're in business.
C_K
Re: shooting movers
A rule of thumb posted on this web site for .308 leads was .5 MIL per MPH target speed. I can't remember now if that was only for 175 gr bullets? I was shooting 178s.
I've used this a few times last year. I scored well except in high cross winds. My mind couldn't seem to do the math fast enough when it was a right mover in a left wind so I needed a negative hold.
Bottom line is try it, see what works, and adjust as needed. Doing all sorts of precise math when target speed is not exact becomes an exercise of diminishing returns. Not everyone walking the target walks at the same speed....
A rule of thumb posted on this web site for .308 leads was .5 MIL per MPH target speed. I can't remember now if that was only for 175 gr bullets? I was shooting 178s.
I've used this a few times last year. I scored well except in high cross winds. My mind couldn't seem to do the math fast enough when it was a right mover in a left wind so I needed a negative hold.
Bottom line is try it, see what works, and adjust as needed. Doing all sorts of precise math when target speed is not exact becomes an exercise of diminishing returns. Not everyone walking the target walks at the same speed....
Re: shooting movers
Everyone shoots movers different. You have reaction time on the trigger, what style do you prefer ambush, track? At 600 yards it is going to be easier to see what is going on. If you can spot your hits at 600 you make your adjustment and hammer down. If you don’t see splash chances are you are shooting just in front of it and the target is covering the splash.
Like DT1 quoted Jacob Bynum that is the only way you will get good.
Everyone shoots movers different. You have reaction time on the trigger, what style do you prefer ambush, track? At 600 yards it is going to be easier to see what is going on. If you can spot your hits at 600 you make your adjustment and hammer down. If you don’t see splash chances are you are shooting just in front of it and the target is covering the splash.
Like DT1 quoted Jacob Bynum that is the only way you will get good.
Re: shooting movers
"the only way to get good at shooting movers is to shoot movers"...Jacob Bynum
Amen
For a 308 shooting 168/175 ammo I would suggest you start at appx 1.2-1.5mil with a walking speed mover. Then get out there and shoot a bunch of them.
You won't get good at them without shooting them, it's a fact of life.
"the only way to get good at shooting movers is to shoot movers"...Jacob Bynum
Amen
For a 308 shooting 168/175 ammo I would suggest you start at appx 1.2-1.5mil with a walking speed mover. Then get out there and shoot a bunch of them.
You won't get good at them without shooting them, it's a fact of life.
Re: shooting movers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For a 308 shooting 168/175 ammo I would suggest you start at appx 1.2-1.5mil with a walking speed mover.
</div></div>
This sounds about right to me, but I don't have a log book around to check. 4 mph is a very brisk walking pace. 3 mph is more realistic.
Also, I suggest using the ambush method at 600 yards. It allows you to have better NPA and stability than tracking does. Tracking is better at closer ranges.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For a 308 shooting 168/175 ammo I would suggest you start at appx 1.2-1.5mil with a walking speed mover.
</div></div>
This sounds about right to me, but I don't have a log book around to check. 4 mph is a very brisk walking pace. 3 mph is more realistic.
Also, I suggest using the ambush method at 600 yards. It allows you to have better NPA and stability than tracking does. Tracking is better at closer ranges.
Re: shooting movers
the practice thing is absolutely correct, I'll add this as well: Ambushing or tracking...shoot both ways and find out what your brain likes.
I track movers, follow them get proper mil hold, press, follow through. My brain just doesn't do ambushing (holding reticle stationary until target gets into correct position) well.
Shoot them, determine your best method, and shoot lots of them.
C_K
the practice thing is absolutely correct, I'll add this as well: Ambushing or tracking...shoot both ways and find out what your brain likes.
I track movers, follow them get proper mil hold, press, follow through. My brain just doesn't do ambushing (holding reticle stationary until target gets into correct position) well.
Shoot them, determine your best method, and shoot lots of them.
C_K
G
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Re: shooting movers
I track to 500, an ambush farther.
Target speed an direction angle are best learned via OJT.
I track to 500, an ambush farther.
Target speed an direction angle are best learned via OJT.
Re: shooting movers
ive shot movers at 300 yards with my ar and an eotech i was using the tracking method and was holding on the edge of an ipsc size target and made all good hits. guess ill just practice
ive shot movers at 300 yards with my ar and an eotech i was using the tracking method and was holding on the edge of an ipsc size target and made all good hits. guess ill just practice
Re: shooting movers
1-1.5 mils is a good starting point.
Your personal "lock time" will decide if you need to lengthen or shorten the lead. Nothing beats trigger time.
There are both complex and simple methods to figure out the lead for a mover, but there usually is little time to use them. SWAG it and send it.
1-1.5 mils is a good starting point.
Your personal "lock time" will decide if you need to lengthen or shorten the lead. Nothing beats trigger time.
There are both complex and simple methods to figure out the lead for a mover, but there usually is little time to use them. SWAG it and send it.
Re: shooting movers
So what would it be in moa's
So what would it be in moa's
Re: shooting movers
About four MOA.
If you can have someone spotting your impacts they can direct you to increase or shorten lead.
About four MOA.
If you can have someone spotting your impacts they can direct you to increase or shorten lead.
Re: shooting movers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1-1.5 mils is a good starting point.
Your personal "lock time" will decide if you need to lengthen or shorten the lead. Nothing beats trigger time.
There are both complex and simple methods to figure out the lead for a mover, but there usually is little time to use them. SWAG it and send it. </div></div>
Thats exactly what my instructor told me, mental lock time from eye, to brain, to trigger...
for MOA, Mils(3.44)=MOA
Another thing, once you find your lead with the trial and error not using TOF and velocity math above, you can dial your lead, and hold for wind. Or dial your lead, add/subtract wind and go from there.
This works especially well if the competition you're shooting has movers at a set distance, find lead dial it, hold wind, send it.
C_K
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1-1.5 mils is a good starting point.
Your personal "lock time" will decide if you need to lengthen or shorten the lead. Nothing beats trigger time.
There are both complex and simple methods to figure out the lead for a mover, but there usually is little time to use them. SWAG it and send it. </div></div>
Thats exactly what my instructor told me, mental lock time from eye, to brain, to trigger...
for MOA, Mils(3.44)=MOA
Another thing, once you find your lead with the trial and error not using TOF and velocity math above, you can dial your lead, and hold for wind. Or dial your lead, add/subtract wind and go from there.
This works especially well if the competition you're shooting has movers at a set distance, find lead dial it, hold wind, send it.
C_K
Re: shooting movers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thing, once you find your lead with the trial and error not using TOF and velocity math above, you can dial your lead, and hold for wind. Or dial your lead, add/subtract wind and go from there.
This works especially well if the competition you're shooting has movers at a set distance, find lead dial it, hold wind, send it.
C_K</div></div> That works well until the mover changes directions, and you are under stress. I find it best to NOT dial wind, to trap the target, break a clean shot, and adjust as necessary. </div></div>Why would you dial the lead? It make sense to dial the wind, which zeros-out the wind component. Then you just hold the lead, and keep a consistent hold that gives you the correct lead in both directions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris_K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thing, once you find your lead with the trial and error not using TOF and velocity math above, you can dial your lead, and hold for wind. Or dial your lead, add/subtract wind and go from there.
This works especially well if the competition you're shooting has movers at a set distance, find lead dial it, hold wind, send it.
C_K</div></div> That works well until the mover changes directions, and you are under stress. I find it best to NOT dial wind, to trap the target, break a clean shot, and adjust as necessary. </div></div>Why would you dial the lead? It make sense to dial the wind, which zeros-out the wind component. Then you just hold the lead, and keep a consistent hold that gives you the correct lead in both directions.
Re: shooting movers
Graham -
Wasn't clear enough, sorry. I rarely dial for anything, other than elevation, because I am not smart enough, especially under time constraints, to remember how much I dialed, and what direction. My reticle of choice is the G2, so it makes it a bit easier to hold wind. I just trap the target in my reticle using the correct lead/wind combo.
I recently shot the 500 yard mover at Rifles Only, and my hold was 1 mil right to left, 2.3-ish left to right (240 amax at 2795). Lucks damned near cleaned it with the same holds.
Graham -
Wasn't clear enough, sorry. I rarely dial for anything, other than elevation, because I am not smart enough, especially under time constraints, to remember how much I dialed, and what direction. My reticle of choice is the G2, so it makes it a bit easier to hold wind. I just trap the target in my reticle using the correct lead/wind combo.
I recently shot the 500 yard mover at Rifles Only, and my hold was 1 mil right to left, 2.3-ish left to right (240 amax at 2795). Lucks damned near cleaned it with the same holds.
Re: shooting movers
Matters not what I say. Depends on how you drive. Depends on how quick your brain translates into the trigger pull. Are you trapping or tracking?
Matters not what I say. Depends on how you drive. Depends on how quick your brain translates into the trigger pull. Are you trapping or tracking?
Re: shooting movers
At the recent as match went 5 for 6 at that range trapping at 1.5 mil.....
But. Am slow...
At the recent as match went 5 for 6 at that range trapping at 1.5 mil.....
But. Am slow...
Re: shooting movers
Being told a specific mil lead can be deceptive- not just because of reaction time but depending on wind, which will be in play at 600 yd., you could be holding a whole lot more in front of, crosshairs on, or well behind your target. You need to be able assess your first splashes and make adjustments.
BTW don't forget to "power down" on your scope magnification - you want to see your target but you need a broader fielder view than hitting stationary targets.
Being told a specific mil lead can be deceptive- not just because of reaction time but depending on wind, which will be in play at 600 yd., you could be holding a whole lot more in front of, crosshairs on, or well behind your target. You need to be able assess your first splashes and make adjustments.
BTW don't forget to "power down" on your scope magnification - you want to see your target but you need a broader fielder view than hitting stationary targets.
Re: shooting movers
<span style="font-size: 11pt">I'm pretty good at movers though I have friends who are better, using both methods. I prefer ambush, and this is why. Sooner or later you will be in a position in which the butt/pinch bag cannot be moved smoothly across a level plane. Unless the butt can be moved smoothly and across a level plane, hitting a moving target is more challenging, if possible at all, than ambush. Rather than training in a method that cannot always be used, train with a method more likely to be possible regardless of terrain you might find yourself shooting from.
First, use a reliable load data source for an approximate mvfps. Then with JBM Calculations, changing input data, arrive at varying leads to try. This will get you close enough such that any adjustment you might find needed will be small.</span>
<span style="font-size: 11pt">I'm pretty good at movers though I have friends who are better, using both methods. I prefer ambush, and this is why. Sooner or later you will be in a position in which the butt/pinch bag cannot be moved smoothly across a level plane. Unless the butt can be moved smoothly and across a level plane, hitting a moving target is more challenging, if possible at all, than ambush. Rather than training in a method that cannot always be used, train with a method more likely to be possible regardless of terrain you might find yourself shooting from.
First, use a reliable load data source for an approximate mvfps. Then with JBM Calculations, changing input data, arrive at varying leads to try. This will get you close enough such that any adjustment you might find needed will be small.</span>
Re: shooting movers
We shot movers yesterday. We use a B27 repair center on cardboard with a stick, walked in the pit.
Dialing the lead works, but it is a gamer/range technique and not something anyone would ever do for real. After all, moving targets in real life rarely announce their distance from you, velocity, and intended direction of travel.
It's handy to fine-tune what the lead actually should be because you can precisely dial it, and aim at the center of the moving target (tracking). Especially if you have little to no wind to contend with.
Useful in the training/comp toolbox, but that's all.
--Fargo007
We shot movers yesterday. We use a B27 repair center on cardboard with a stick, walked in the pit.
Dialing the lead works, but it is a gamer/range technique and not something anyone would ever do for real. After all, moving targets in real life rarely announce their distance from you, velocity, and intended direction of travel.
It's handy to fine-tune what the lead actually should be because you can precisely dial it, and aim at the center of the moving target (tracking). Especially if you have little to no wind to contend with.
Useful in the training/comp toolbox, but that's all.
--Fargo007
Re: shooting movers
Movers still on the list for next week?
Movers still on the list for next week?
Re: shooting movers
Yessir-you-betcha. Movers are a big part of every match I run there. They are my favorite thing to shoot. I tend to press skills suited to the environment we're shooting in. A pit system literally cries out for movers.
One time this year I will also do a match entirely composed of moving targets too. an "All Movers Match." Pop-walks, traditional movers, running, walking, stop-starters, multiples, balloons, B27 Centers, hostage/badguy movers...
We will shoot them from non-traditional positions as well.
I don't know when yet, it takes quite a bit of coordination to plan my match schedule and CoF out. Best guess is Jun/Jul/Aug.
I also do a moving targets clinic once a year. Not instruction but a well organized, full day of practice on movers of many types and kinds from 200 to 600 yards. This also has no date yet but I will try and put it ahead of the AMM.
Rest assured everything I have going on will be announced right here on the hide.
Apologies if I strayed too far off topic.
--Fargo007
Yessir-you-betcha. Movers are a big part of every match I run there. They are my favorite thing to shoot. I tend to press skills suited to the environment we're shooting in. A pit system literally cries out for movers.
One time this year I will also do a match entirely composed of moving targets too. an "All Movers Match." Pop-walks, traditional movers, running, walking, stop-starters, multiples, balloons, B27 Centers, hostage/badguy movers...
We will shoot them from non-traditional positions as well.
I don't know when yet, it takes quite a bit of coordination to plan my match schedule and CoF out. Best guess is Jun/Jul/Aug.
I also do a moving targets clinic once a year. Not instruction but a well organized, full day of practice on movers of many types and kinds from 200 to 600 yards. This also has no date yet but I will try and put it ahead of the AMM.
Rest assured everything I have going on will be announced right here on the hide.
Apologies if I strayed too far off topic.
--Fargo007
Re: shooting movers
Sounds great, yeah please keep me informed on the mover clinic and mover matches.
Sounds great, yeah please keep me informed on the mover clinic and mover matches.
Re: shooting movers
I would pull a ~1 mil lead at 600 using tracking shooting method (not trapping).
I've found my trapping leads have to be larger (~1.3mil) at that distance, and that has to do with trigger manipulation speed. There will be some time lost trapping- no one is going to break a clean shot in zero time- the human brain doesn't react instantaneously.
In my experience following the target gives better results than waiting in a spot and breaking the shot quickly. Granted the movers in the military and law enforcement circles are typically humanoid, meaning taller than wide, so elevation is not critical, where windage error is hit or miss.
A good spotter is pretty critical as he'll be able to tell you if you're on target or to increase your lead.
I would pull a ~1 mil lead at 600 using tracking shooting method (not trapping).
I've found my trapping leads have to be larger (~1.3mil) at that distance, and that has to do with trigger manipulation speed. There will be some time lost trapping- no one is going to break a clean shot in zero time- the human brain doesn't react instantaneously.
In my experience following the target gives better results than waiting in a spot and breaking the shot quickly. Granted the movers in the military and law enforcement circles are typically humanoid, meaning taller than wide, so elevation is not critical, where windage error is hit or miss.
A good spotter is pretty critical as he'll be able to tell you if you're on target or to increase your lead.
Re: shooting movers
well ill let you guys know how i did at the match. not guna be able to practice, im tied up shooting three gun but im going to start off at 4 moa lead and go from there. thanks for everyones help. and yea im going to get a chrono
well ill let you guys know how i did at the match. not guna be able to practice, im tied up shooting three gun but im going to start off at 4 moa lead and go from there. thanks for everyones help. and yea im going to get a chrono
Re: shooting movers
The mover for the JTP/Seekins Precision Findlay cup being shot this weekend will be set up at 300 yds. The speed will be 3 mph. The only data required to figure lead is TOF and distance the target moves during that TOF. 1mph is 1.46fps. Trapping or following the target is dealing with mechanics that happend before the bullet leaves the muzzle and will have to be figured out by each shooter. If you compare leads with say a 308 shooting a 175 and a 243 shooting a 105 you'll see the difference is about .3 mil at 300 yds. It's not Voodoo. Most mistakes by inexperienced shooters are firing on the leading edge of the target and not being aggressive enough on the trigger. Forgetting to dial elevation is almost always seen at least a few times during a match. If wind is strong enough to be delt with it is always better IMO to dial for the prevailing wind. YMMV and this info is offered to help new shooters at the match this weekend.
The mover for the JTP/Seekins Precision Findlay cup being shot this weekend will be set up at 300 yds. The speed will be 3 mph. The only data required to figure lead is TOF and distance the target moves during that TOF. 1mph is 1.46fps. Trapping or following the target is dealing with mechanics that happend before the bullet leaves the muzzle and will have to be figured out by each shooter. If you compare leads with say a 308 shooting a 175 and a 243 shooting a 105 you'll see the difference is about .3 mil at 300 yds. It's not Voodoo. Most mistakes by inexperienced shooters are firing on the leading edge of the target and not being aggressive enough on the trigger. Forgetting to dial elevation is almost always seen at least a few times during a match. If wind is strong enough to be delt with it is always better IMO to dial for the prevailing wind. YMMV and this info is offered to help new shooters at the match this weekend.
