Rifle Scopes FFP or Not??
- Thread starter Daxter
- Start date
Re: FFP or Not??
Definitely, especially for using wind or lead holds at varying magnification power.
Definitely, especially for using wind or lead holds at varying magnification power.
Re: FFP or Not??
Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope.
Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MP15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope.</div></div> I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. I do do have the Leica 1600 also so I will not have range very much with that scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MP15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope.</div></div> I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. I do do have the Leica 1600 also so I will not have range very much with that scope.
Re: FFP or Not??
i jut got my first ffp scope, i prefer it over a sfp scope any day. Follow up shots are much easier.
i jut got my first ffp scope, i prefer it over a sfp scope any day. Follow up shots are much easier.
Re: FFP or Not??
I use a LRF for nearly everything so I don't have much use for FFP but I'm old school.
I use a LRF for nearly everything so I don't have much use for FFP but I'm old school.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daxter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. </div></div>
No they don't when you use a good reticle and practice. Can be as accurate and faster than dialing.
Ranging with the reticle is down on my list for what the FFP scope is useful for. Using the reticle for wind, holds over/under and for movers is much more important and something everyone should practice if they want to use their rifle to it's potential.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daxter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. </div></div>
No they don't when you use a good reticle and practice. Can be as accurate and faster than dialing.
Ranging with the reticle is down on my list for what the FFP scope is useful for. Using the reticle for wind, holds over/under and for movers is much more important and something everyone should practice if they want to use their rifle to it's potential.
Re: FFP or Not??
Funny that so many people seem to think that FFP's sole purpose is to have the convenience of ranging at any magnification...
Funny that so many people seem to think that FFP's sole purpose is to have the convenience of ranging at any magnification...
Re: FFP or Not??
Bayou, yes you can but the mils are not the same value. In ffp the mil value is the same throughout the ranging power making it simpler. FFP is not necessary for everyone imho. If you are shooting regularly, competing in PRS style matches, shooting against a clock, then ffp is the way to go.
Bayou, yes you can but the mils are not the same value. In ffp the mil value is the same throughout the ranging power making it simpler. FFP is not necessary for everyone imho. If you are shooting regularly, competing in PRS style matches, shooting against a clock, then ffp is the way to go.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MP15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
<span style="font-weight: bold">If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.</span>
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope. </div></div>
I would think that FFP should be MOST useful on scopes where one doesn't intend to use adjustments as hold over/under, etc is accurate at any magnification.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MP15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you plan on ranging with the scope? Do you like to crank the dials/knobs? If so, yes.
<span style="font-weight: bold">If you just hold over and never dial in adjustments, sort of set it and forget it, then no.</span>
Alot of it comes down to how you will use the scope. </div></div>
I would think that FFP should be MOST useful on scopes where one doesn't intend to use adjustments as hold over/under, etc is accurate at any magnification.
Re: FFP or Not??
If you are ALWAYS going to dial in your adjustments, then you can use the SFP just fine.
Holdovers and wind leads on a sfp scope are different at different powers.
An advantage of the SFP scope is the reticle size remains the same, so if you have it turned down to 4x, it looks the same and is easier to see.
I still have both, but only because I can't afford to change all of my scopes to FFP.
Personally, I believe that it is well worth the money to upgrade.
Just a word of caution, some folks have reported VERY short battery life with the vortex pst scopes (even when turned off).
You may want to consider the weaver 3-15 ffp illuminated scope.
If you are ALWAYS going to dial in your adjustments, then you can use the SFP just fine.
Holdovers and wind leads on a sfp scope are different at different powers.
An advantage of the SFP scope is the reticle size remains the same, so if you have it turned down to 4x, it looks the same and is easier to see.
I still have both, but only because I can't afford to change all of my scopes to FFP.
Personally, I believe that it is well worth the money to upgrade.
Just a word of caution, some folks have reported VERY short battery life with the vortex pst scopes (even when turned off).
You may want to consider the weaver 3-15 ffp illuminated scope.
Re: FFP or Not??
Battery life in the PSTs are fine. Not tightening the battery cover completely may be the culprit.
Battery life in the PSTs are fine. Not tightening the battery cover completely may be the culprit.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Battery life in the PSTs are fine. Not tightening the battery cover completely may be the culprit. </div></div>
Confirmed this as the issue on mine this morning. First time it kept working even after shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Battery life in the PSTs are fine. Not tightening the battery cover completely may be the culprit. </div></div>
Confirmed this as the issue on mine this morning. First time it kept working even after shooting.
Re: FFP or Not??
Here is my experience with FFP:
1) Others tell me I need FFP
2) I tell them that I disagree and I don't need it.
3) They call me names and tell me to go back to my playstation in my mom's basement.
So my advice is to proceed with caution around here if you feel like you do NOT need FFP!
Here is my experience with FFP:
1) Others tell me I need FFP
2) I tell them that I disagree and I don't need it.
3) They call me names and tell me to go back to my playstation in my mom's basement.
So my advice is to proceed with caution around here if you feel like you do NOT need FFP!
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is my experience with FFP:
1) Others tell me I need FFP
2) I tell them that I disagree and I don't need it.
3) They call me names and tell me to go back to my playstation in my mom's basement.
So my advice is to proceed with caution around here if you feel like you do NOT need FFP! </div></div>
ROFLMAO! Good stuff Eric!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is my experience with FFP:
1) Others tell me I need FFP
2) I tell them that I disagree and I don't need it.
3) They call me names and tell me to go back to my playstation in my mom's basement.
So my advice is to proceed with caution around here if you feel like you do NOT need FFP!
ROFLMAO! Good stuff Eric!
Re: FFP or Not??
If you don't have FFP, your shooting buddies that do have FFP will twist your scope turrets down in magnification a little when you aren't looking
If you don't have FFP, your shooting buddies that do have FFP will twist your scope turrets down in magnification a little when you aren't looking
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't have FFP, your shooting buddies that do have FFP will twist your scope turrets down in magnification a little when you aren't looking </div></div>
It's amazing how people will go out of their way to help you to see that you "need" something.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't have FFP, your shooting buddies that do have FFP will twist your scope turrets down in magnification a little when you aren't looking </div></div>
Re: FFP or Not??
You don't need it...if you're going to shoot on a single magnification all the time, no matter the range, conditions, etc. Even when you're just spotting.
You don't need it...if you're going to shoot on a single magnification all the time, no matter the range, conditions, etc. Even when you're just spotting.
Re: FFP or Not??
I hope more guys I shoot against don't use FFP. All the formulas and figuring of the SFP reticle at different magnifications are nice and easy when you are laying on your home range and not under time. Sure you can make them work. Hell people can't remember to dial dope on their scopes let alone remember that at X power it's 1/3 of a mil LOL
You guys keep telling them they shouldn't have FFP. Thanks.
I hope more guys I shoot against don't use FFP. All the formulas and figuring of the SFP reticle at different magnifications are nice and easy when you are laying on your home range and not under time. Sure you can make them work. Hell people can't remember to dial dope on their scopes let alone remember that at X power it's 1/3 of a mil LOL
You guys keep telling them they shouldn't have FFP. Thanks.
Re: FFP or Not??
I have used both SFP and FFP for the shooting I do. When I was running SFP I would just do what I had to. The scope usually spent the vast majority of the time on 15x. At 15x I could use the reticle for hold overs/unders, leads (movers) and holding wind. If I had to dial back the magnification I would remember that my subtension values increase. Instead of trying to figure it out I would dial the wind or change my POA.
When I switched to FFP I realized how much better it was (for me). When I had to dial out my reticle subtensions remain the same. I hold over/under, leads and windage the same as I did before but now I don't have to be at a specific magnification. I think the SFP vs. FFP question has more to do with your personal preferences.
I have used both SFP and FFP for the shooting I do. When I was running SFP I would just do what I had to. The scope usually spent the vast majority of the time on 15x. At 15x I could use the reticle for hold overs/unders, leads (movers) and holding wind. If I had to dial back the magnification I would remember that my subtension values increase. Instead of trying to figure it out I would dial the wind or change my POA.
When I switched to FFP I realized how much better it was (for me). When I had to dial out my reticle subtensions remain the same. I hold over/under, leads and windage the same as I did before but now I don't have to be at a specific magnification. I think the SFP vs. FFP question has more to do with your personal preferences.
Re: FFP or Not??
Shooterready doesn't even have FFP or Mil adjustments. How am I to practice with my mouse finger.
Shooterready doesn't even have FFP or Mil adjustments. How am I to practice with my mouse finger.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For hunting you don't need FFP.
FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition. </div></div>
Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not. I think FFP was invented by make believe shooters who think they operate in the real world.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For hunting you don't need FFP.
FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition. </div></div>
Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not. I think FFP was invented by make believe shooters who think they operate in the real world.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not.</div></div>Hmmmm... one of them non-FFP Horuses, eh?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not.</div></div>Hmmmm... one of them non-FFP Horuses, eh?
Re: FFP or Not??
I like open post and groove sights and Kentucky windage.
I like open post and groove sights and Kentucky windage.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daxter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. </div></div>
No they don't when you use a good reticle and practice. Can be as accurate and faster than dialing.
Ranging with the reticle is down on my list for what the FFP scope is useful for. Using the reticle for wind, holds over/under and for movers is much more important and something everyone should practice if they want to use their rifle to it's potential. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daxter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just assume dail it up put the cross hairs on it and let it and let fly... hold overs and "kentucky windage" has to much guessing. </div></div>
No they don't when you use a good reticle and practice. Can be as accurate and faster than dialing.
Ranging with the reticle is down on my list for what the FFP scope is useful for. Using the reticle for wind, holds over/under and for movers is much more important and something everyone should practice if they want to use their rifle to it's potential. </div></div>
+1
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not.</div></div>Hmmmm... one of them non-FFP Horuses, eh? </div></div>
this is true, all Horus seem to be FFP these days. However, if it is not a Horus reticle, and you use holdover (like say for a mildot).. it is the same if you have FFP or not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not true, if you have a Horus reticle you can accurately holdover no matter if you have FFP or not.</div></div>Hmmmm... one of them non-FFP Horuses, eh?
this is true, all Horus seem to be FFP these days. However, if it is not a Horus reticle, and you use holdover (like say for a mildot).. it is the same if you have FFP or not.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I like open post and groove sights and Kentucky windage.
</div></div>
.5 MOA?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I like open post and groove sights and Kentucky windage.
</div></div>
.5 MOA?
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used both SFP and FFP for the shooting I do. When I was running SFP I would just do what I had to. The scope usually spent the vast majority of the time on 15x. At 15x I could use the reticle for hold overs/unders, leads (movers) and holding wind. If I had to dial back the magnification I would remember that my subtension values increase. Instead of trying to figure it out I would dial the wind or change my POA.
When I switched to FFP I realized how much better it was (for me). When I had to dial out my reticle subtensions remain the same. I hold over/under, leads and windage the same as I did before but now I don't have to be at a specific magnification. I think the SFP vs. FFP question has more to do with your personal preferences.
</div></div>
great post JFC! I can't wait to meet you again in person. I am going to let you hit me in the face (and I promise not to hit back).. because you told me you want to hit in the face because I disagreed with you one time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have used both SFP and FFP for the shooting I do. When I was running SFP I would just do what I had to. The scope usually spent the vast majority of the time on 15x. At 15x I could use the reticle for hold overs/unders, leads (movers) and holding wind. If I had to dial back the magnification I would remember that my subtension values increase. Instead of trying to figure it out I would dial the wind or change my POA.
When I switched to FFP I realized how much better it was (for me). When I had to dial out my reticle subtensions remain the same. I hold over/under, leads and windage the same as I did before but now I don't have to be at a specific magnification. I think the SFP vs. FFP question has more to do with your personal preferences.
</div></div>
great post JFC! I can't wait to meet you again in person. I am going to let you hit me in the face (and I promise not to hit back).. because you told me you want to hit in the face because I disagreed with you one time.
Re: FFP or Not??
I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks. Learn me and I will delete my post.
I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks. Learn me and I will delete my post.
Re: FFP or Not??
I have not shot a ffp yet, I can say if yourr sfp is only correctly subtends at a certain power.(say 15) When that nice buck jumps out at 50yds and stands. Shot placement is hard to see when the whole picture is brown.
I have not shot a ffp yet, I can say if yourr sfp is only correctly subtends at a certain power.(say 15) When that nice buck jumps out at 50yds and stands. Shot placement is hard to see when the whole picture is brown.
Re: FFP or Not??
I've struggled with the decision to go FFP or SFP, but I finally decided that if you can't see where you are hitting (where the hole goes), then FFP is of little advantage. If I'm shooting paper at 400 yards, but can't see the holes, FFP won't make magic happen...
Can't argue with holdover advantage though.
Considering though that many FFP scopes are now becoming much more affordable, if it's not too large a price difference, I'd maybe opt for FFP.
I've struggled with the decision to go FFP or SFP, but I finally decided that if you can't see where you are hitting (where the hole goes), then FFP is of little advantage. If I'm shooting paper at 400 yards, but can't see the holes, FFP won't make magic happen...
Can't argue with holdover advantage though.
Considering though that many FFP scopes are now becoming much more affordable, if it's not too large a price difference, I'd maybe opt for FFP.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stranded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not shot a ffp yet, I can say if yourr sfp is only correctly subtends at a certain power.(say 15) When that nice buck jumps out at 50yds and stands. Shot placement is hard to see when the whole picture is brown. </div></div>
I'm not a hunter, but this scenario seems incredible to me. If a buck jumps out at 50 yards are you really going to bother to range it with your reticle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stranded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not shot a ffp yet, I can say if yourr sfp is only correctly subtends at a certain power.(say 15) When that nice buck jumps out at 50yds and stands. Shot placement is hard to see when the whole picture is brown. </div></div>
I'm not a hunter, but this scenario seems incredible to me. If a buck jumps out at 50 yards are you really going to bother to range it with your reticle?
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I use my weapons and train to use them as they were designed for. Not toys. Not hunting deer. They are not Brownings. They are not for games nor competitions. If my target makes it inside of 500 yards, I will have my AR by 400. I don't care how fast they are moving, I can guarantee you the only way they break 100 would be by luck. I still have the Glock.
PLEASE don't get any feathers ruffled. I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks. Learn me and I will delete my post.</div></div>
I don't know about shooting people, and I don't shoot or train for that. So your theory of switching to an AR and dumping mags is probably good for your intended purpose. I don't see any ruffled feathers, nor a reason to delete your post.
I train to play a game. My game is long range precision tactical competition. In tactical competition is it common for there to be 5 targets at different distances on the side of a mountain with vegetation and rocks. You always have time and shot limits, and sometimes have restrictions (such as not being able to touch your turrets). If you only have 35 seconds to get 5 shots off on 5 different targets that are difficult to find, it is easier for me to locate and shoot on 8-14 magnification and hold over or under.
Other times there are moving targets. It is difficult (for me at least) to shoot movers on max power, so again I dial down to 8-14 and I don't have to worry about my reticle being right.
Personally, I like to dial for elevation and wind as often as I can. If I miss a shot, and can see the miss then I can dial adjustment by measuring my miss with the reticle no matter the magnification I am on.
These are just a few advantages I see on FFP in the specific game that I play. Before I shot in these competitions SFP did everything I needed, and I rarely dialed my scope off of max magnification.
Ty
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I use my weapons and train to use them as they were designed for. Not toys. Not hunting deer. They are not Brownings. They are not for games nor competitions. If my target makes it inside of 500 yards, I will have my AR by 400. I don't care how fast they are moving, I can guarantee you the only way they break 100 would be by luck. I still have the Glock.
PLEASE don't get any feathers ruffled. I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks. Learn me and I will delete my post.
</div></div> I don't know about shooting people, and I don't shoot or train for that. So your theory of switching to an AR and dumping mags is probably good for your intended purpose. I don't see any ruffled feathers, nor a reason to delete your post.
I train to play a game. My game is long range precision tactical competition. In tactical competition is it common for there to be 5 targets at different distances on the side of a mountain with vegetation and rocks. You always have time and shot limits, and sometimes have restrictions (such as not being able to touch your turrets). If you only have 35 seconds to get 5 shots off on 5 different targets that are difficult to find, it is easier for me to locate and shoot on 8-14 magnification and hold over or under.
Other times there are moving targets. It is difficult (for me at least) to shoot movers on max power, so again I dial down to 8-14 and I don't have to worry about my reticle being right.
Personally, I like to dial for elevation and wind as often as I can. If I miss a shot, and can see the miss then I can dial adjustment by measuring my miss with the reticle no matter the magnification I am on.
These are just a few advantages I see on FFP in the specific game that I play. Before I shot in these competitions SFP did everything I needed, and I rarely dialed my scope off of max magnification.
Ty
Re: FFP or Not??
And you sir are to be commended. In your situation, the FFP would be the better of the two. One scope type does not cover everything. I get tired of people recommending a reticle without taking into account the specific use it will be used for. Each one excels in it's own area. I think an SFP on an AR would be an absolute waste of the weapons capabilities. I think a bolt gun would be a poor choice to engage multiple moving targets compared to a semiauto weapon. I know the FFPs are wonderful in many situations but I don't think we can blindly recommend them for all situations. Especially to new shooters, as is so often the case. Thanks for helping to point out a couple of different scenarios for people new to long range shooting to consider so that they may be able to decide how they will use their weapon, and then base their scope choice on it.
I think Graham nailed it above.
FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition.
And you sir are to be commended. In your situation, the FFP would be the better of the two. One scope type does not cover everything. I get tired of people recommending a reticle without taking into account the specific use it will be used for. Each one excels in it's own area. I think an SFP on an AR would be an absolute waste of the weapons capabilities. I think a bolt gun would be a poor choice to engage multiple moving targets compared to a semiauto weapon. I know the FFPs are wonderful in many situations but I don't think we can blindly recommend them for all situations. Especially to new shooters, as is so often the case. Thanks for helping to point out a couple of different scenarios for people new to long range shooting to consider so that they may be able to decide how they will use their weapon, and then base their scope choice on it.
I think Graham nailed it above.
FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I use my weapons and train to use them as they were designed for. Not toys. Not hunting deer. They are not Brownings. They are not for games nor competitions. If my target makes it inside of 500 yards, I will have my AR by 400. I don't care how fast they are moving, I can guarantee you the only way they break 100 would be by luck. I still have the Glock.
PLEASE don't get any feathers ruffled. I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks.
Learn me and I will delete my post. </div></div>
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP.
I'm new to all of this so forgive me. I think on a semi-auto the FFP would be great for fast follow ups. I would think for a precision bolt, the SFP would be invaluable. I think the choice of the two should be dictated by how one plans to deploy their weapon. Neither choice is better in all situations. If the target is concealed, I'll be lucky to see 9" of it. I would need to be very precise with my shot. If the target(s) is moving on me, I'll take an AR and start mag dumping. If I could only have 1 weapon, it certainly wouldn't be a bolt. And for fast moving targets, you certainly wouldn't be ranging. You sould be at low magnification shooting pretty Fing fast. Irons may even be better for this.
I use my weapons and train to use them as they were designed for. Not toys. Not hunting deer. They are not Brownings. They are not for games nor competitions. If my target makes it inside of 500 yards, I will have my AR by 400. I don't care how fast they are moving, I can guarantee you the only way they break 100 would be by luck. I still have the Glock.
PLEASE don't get any feathers ruffled. I am an old dog, but I CAN learn new tricks.
Learn me and I will delete my post.
</div></div>At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Canis Latrans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm new to all
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
</div></div>
My apologies sir. I am worthless. My experience counts for nothing. I hope you can forgive me for wasting your time. Post your address and I will send you some money.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Canis Latrans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm new to all
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
My apologies sir. I am worthless. My experience counts for nothing. I hope you can forgive me for wasting your time. Post your address and I will send you some money.
Re: FFP or Not??
FFP has advantage over SFP in these situations:
1. If you hold for windage with the reticle at less than full magnification.
2. Holding for movers at less than full magnification.
Both are likely for tactical shooters. For benchrest and target, YMMV.
SFP has the advantage of providing the ideal reticle width at all magnifications.
FFP has advantage over SFP in these situations:
1. If you hold for windage with the reticle at less than full magnification.
2. Holding for movers at less than full magnification.
Both are likely for tactical shooters. For benchrest and target, YMMV.
SFP has the advantage of providing the ideal reticle width at all magnifications.
Re: FFP or Not??
Sniper is onto the right factors. Saying the reticle is ideal is not fact but opinion.
What is fact is you can do more with a FFP set up. FFP will also hold a larger value to the higher end market.
If you only shoot paper and don't intend to do hold overs etc or you will be hunting short distances then SFP would be fine.
If you want to do anything other than put the crosshair on your target you are limiting yourself greatly. And the cost increase is usually minimal in higher end scopes to be honest with you.
Sniper is onto the right factors. Saying the reticle is ideal is not fact but opinion.
What is fact is you can do more with a FFP set up. FFP will also hold a larger value to the higher end market.
If you only shoot paper and don't intend to do hold overs etc or you will be hunting short distances then SFP would be fine.
If you want to do anything other than put the crosshair on your target you are limiting yourself greatly. And the cost increase is usually minimal in higher end scopes to be honest with you.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Canis Latrans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm new to all
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
</div></div>
My apologies sir. I am worthless. My experience counts for nothing. I hope you can forgive me for wasting your time. Post your address and I will send you some money.
</div></div>
I don't know why you are pretending to have such a low opinion of yourself yet again in this thread. My post was only a joke. Your post doesn't really make sense to me, as you talk about sfp scopes not being off much on their sub tensions on different powers, yet if it is set at 20x and you dial down to 5x, it will be off by a factor of 4! You also say how it must be so hard to measure something 12x6" at one high power vs another, when it's about the same.
Then you talk about how you would use other weapons to kill people getting progressively closer to you, and don't advise a bolt gun for such work, when this has nothing to do with the topic. The meme is from a movie where a respondent gives a detailed response to a question, but fails to convey any real usable answers. Don't be so hard on yourself.
For example, what does anything in this entire paragraph actually mean?
"I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glocksteady</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Canis Latrans</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm new to all
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
My apologies sir. I am worthless. My experience counts for nothing. I hope you can forgive me for wasting your time. Post your address and I will send you some money.
</div></div>
I don't know why you are pretending to have such a low opinion of yourself yet again in this thread. My post was only a joke. Your post doesn't really make sense to me, as you talk about sfp scopes not being off much on their sub tensions on different powers, yet if it is set at 20x and you dial down to 5x, it will be off by a factor of 4! You also say how it must be so hard to measure something 12x6" at one high power vs another, when it's about the same.
Then you talk about how you would use other weapons to kill people getting progressively closer to you, and don't advise a bolt gun for such work, when this has nothing to do with the topic. The meme is from a movie where a respondent gives a detailed response to a question, but fails to convey any real usable answers. Don't be so hard on yourself.
For example, what does anything in this entire paragraph actually mean?
"I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP."
Re: FFP or Not??
Good God!
1. I don't know why you are pretending to have such a low opinion of yourself yet again in this thread. My post was only a joke.
Your feigned innocence does not hide your antagonistic attitude. Have the balls to stand behind what you say. It obviously was meant to discredit, patronize me.
2. Your post doesn't really make sense to me, as you talk about sfp scopes not being off much on their sub tensions on different powers, yet if it is set at 20x and you dial down to 5x, it will be off by a factor of 4!
I never said the subtensions were off. You can not range a small target as effectively on low magnifications. 1.3 subtensions at 20x is a hell of a lot easier to make out than on 5x. As I stated earlier, Graham is right. FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition. Not ranging.
3. You also say how it must be so hard to measure something 12x6" at one high power vs another, when it's about the same.
I never said this. Please refer to point 2 above.
4. Then you talk about how you would use other weapons to kill people getting progressively closer to you, and don't advise a bolt gun for such work, when this has nothing to do with the topic.
The uses for FFP has everything to do with this topic. They really shine on semi auto weapons as opposed to bolt guns. Again, to quote Graham, "FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition". I don't think you can argue that a semi auto weapon with 10 or more rounds would not be better than a Remington 700 with 5 rounds for shooting multiple moving deer, targets, or people.
5. The meme is from a movie where a respondent gives a detailed response to a question, but fails to convey any real usable answers. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Meme is from the Greek word mimeme, they didn't have movies. They only one being hard on me is you, trying to twist my words with little to no thought as to what I am saying. I personally wonder about anyone who uses the word. You must be a bundle of joy to hang out with.
6. For example, what does anything in this entire paragraph actually mean?
"I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP." [/quote]
Refer to point 2.
I hope you enjoyed this little pissing match. It's apparent you were joking and your just an obnoxious person. Your disdain for me is obvious but don't twist my words around to make them appear as though they have no credence.
1. For long range precision shots, FFP is not an advantage.
2. For ranging, FFP is not an advantage.
3. "FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition." I think it would be perfect on a semi auto platform for these reasons. Fending off a pack of wild deer n such.
4. SFP does have it's advantages over FFP and we should not overlook it.
5. Each reticle has it's advantages but people are not very clear about them. One size does not fit all.
That means FFP is not the answer for every scope option. The point i tried to make while giving the examples that lost Coyote Latrine.
Good God!
1. I don't know why you are pretending to have such a low opinion of yourself yet again in this thread. My post was only a joke.
Your feigned innocence does not hide your antagonistic attitude. Have the balls to stand behind what you say. It obviously was meant to discredit, patronize me.
2. Your post doesn't really make sense to me, as you talk about sfp scopes not being off much on their sub tensions on different powers, yet if it is set at 20x and you dial down to 5x, it will be off by a factor of 4!
I never said the subtensions were off. You can not range a small target as effectively on low magnifications. 1.3 subtensions at 20x is a hell of a lot easier to make out than on 5x. As I stated earlier, Graham is right. FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition. Not ranging.
3. You also say how it must be so hard to measure something 12x6" at one high power vs another, when it's about the same.
I never said this. Please refer to point 2 above.
4. Then you talk about how you would use other weapons to kill people getting progressively closer to you, and don't advise a bolt gun for such work, when this has nothing to do with the topic.
The uses for FFP has everything to do with this topic. They really shine on semi auto weapons as opposed to bolt guns. Again, to quote Graham, "FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition". I don't think you can argue that a semi auto weapon with 10 or more rounds would not be better than a Remington 700 with 5 rounds for shooting multiple moving deer, targets, or people.
5. The meme is from a movie where a respondent gives a detailed response to a question, but fails to convey any real usable answers. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Meme is from the Greek word mimeme, they didn't have movies. They only one being hard on me is you, trying to twist my words with little to no thought as to what I am saying. I personally wonder about anyone who uses the word. You must be a bundle of joy to hang out with.
6. For example, what does anything in this entire paragraph actually mean?
"I just don't see how one can accurately range a 9" x 6" target at less than max magnification with an FFP. The differences in subtensions are EXTREMELY small at 24x with an SFP at any real distance. I can not imagine how accurately you could read them at 12x with the FFP." [/quote]
Refer to point 2.
I hope you enjoyed this little pissing match. It's apparent you were joking and your just an obnoxious person. Your disdain for me is obvious but don't twist my words around to make them appear as though they have no credence.
1. For long range precision shots, FFP is not an advantage.
2. For ranging, FFP is not an advantage.
3. "FFP is useful when engaging multiple targets at different distances under time constraints - like in competition." I think it would be perfect on a semi auto platform for these reasons. Fending off a pack of wild deer n such.
4. SFP does have it's advantages over FFP and we should not overlook it.
5. Each reticle has it's advantages but people are not very clear about them. One size does not fit all.
That means FFP is not the answer for every scope option. The point i tried to make while giving the examples that lost Coyote Latrine.
Re: FFP or Not??
Glock, I'm glad you've never had to turn your scope off full power due to mirage. When it happens to you, you'll find it can be more difficult to use holds or range on maximum magnification.
It is not easy to range at 22x or 25x when the target is dancing in the reticle. So your option is turn to half power and double the values. That means 11x in my NF. Then, it becomes too low powered according to your post suggestion. Whereas if I had a FFP, I could turn to 16x or other random power above 11x and it would still be useful---even on my bolt gun.
Glock, I'm glad you've never had to turn your scope off full power due to mirage. When it happens to you, you'll find it can be more difficult to use holds or range on maximum magnification.
It is not easy to range at 22x or 25x when the target is dancing in the reticle. So your option is turn to half power and double the values. That means 11x in my NF. Then, it becomes too low powered according to your post suggestion. Whereas if I had a FFP, I could turn to 16x or other random power above 11x and it would still be useful---even on my bolt gun.
Re: FFP or Not??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glock, I'm glad you've never had to turn your scope off full power due to mirage. When it happens to you, you'll find it can be more difficult to use holds or range on maximum magnification.
It is not easy to range at 22x or 25x when the target is dancing in the reticle. So your option is turn to half power and double the values. That means 11x in my NF. Then, it becomes too low powered according to your post suggestion. Whereas if I had a FFP, I could turn to 16x or other random power active 11x and it would still be useful---even on my bolt gun. </div></div>
I've seen pictures of FFP subtensions posted in these threads and honestly, not trying to start anything, I for the life of me, don't see how you can use them. They really get close together and small. I would be glad to have an excuse to buy another toy. Maybe in the mean time, you guys can educate me. It will be awhile. I want a NF or S&B for my next scope. I want to put it on a .338 and shoot out to 1600+.
I have had to turn down mag for mirage....it's Oklahoma. At least I can still see the spaces in between the hash marks clearly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glock, I'm glad you've never had to turn your scope off full power due to mirage. When it happens to you, you'll find it can be more difficult to use holds or range on maximum magnification.
It is not easy to range at 22x or 25x when the target is dancing in the reticle. So your option is turn to half power and double the values. That means 11x in my NF. Then, it becomes too low powered according to your post suggestion. Whereas if I had a FFP, I could turn to 16x or other random power active 11x and it would still be useful---even on my bolt gun. </div></div>
I've seen pictures of FFP subtensions posted in these threads and honestly, not trying to start anything, I for the life of me, don't see how you can use them. They really get close together and small. I would be glad to have an excuse to buy another toy. Maybe in the mean time, you guys can educate me. It will be awhile. I want a NF or S&B for my next scope. I want to put it on a .338 and shoot out to 1600+.
I have had to turn down mag for mirage....it's Oklahoma. At least I can still see the spaces in between the hash marks clearly.
Re: FFP or Not??
What good are those spaces if they aren't accurate?
What good are those spaces if they aren't accurate?
Re: FFP or Not??
Why wouldn't they be accurate? You just need a multiplier. I understand the problem of doing the math on the fly with multiple targets at varying distances or movers. I have stated multiple times that this is where FFP shines. I don't shoot tactical competitions, nor multiple moving targets.
If I am shooting precision shots, at 1 target, how does FFP benefit me. If I am trying to shoot MOA at 1000-2000 yards, can it help me? How can it help me? Would there be any drawback to using an SFP for this purpose or do I really need an FFP?
Anyone want to chime in on the advantages of SFP or do you just want to watch the wolves feed?
Why wouldn't they be accurate? You just need a multiplier. I understand the problem of doing the math on the fly with multiple targets at varying distances or movers. I have stated multiple times that this is where FFP shines. I don't shoot tactical competitions, nor multiple moving targets.
If I am shooting precision shots, at 1 target, how does FFP benefit me. If I am trying to shoot MOA at 1000-2000 yards, can it help me? How can it help me? Would there be any drawback to using an SFP for this purpose or do I really need an FFP?
Anyone want to chime in on the advantages of SFP or do you just want to watch the wolves feed?
