Annealing concerns .......

[Russell3812]

So after reading a little bit about annealing I decided to give it a go. I bought a "benzomatic" butane torch at the hardware store for $15, used my power drill and held the brass in it with a lee shell holder. Shut off the lights in my work room and spun the brass in the flame until I saw a faint reddish glow then immediately dumped it into a bucket of water. It took about 20 seconds of hitting the brass with the flame before I saw it glow. Waited for them to dry overnight, reloaded and headed off to the range. It worked.... and by that I mean it didn't blow up in my face. I did notice that it was difficult to eject some of the cases after firing which according to what I've read suggests that I heated the brass to much.
I've been reading more on this site and others about annealing since my first try and here are my concerns.

1) I'm overheating the brass potentially annealing the entire piece as there is no way I could hold this in my hand as some methods have suggested.

2) My $15 "Benzomatic" is not hot enough to produce the desired result quick enough.....

3) Wondering if I should just dump this batch of brass. The fired cases do not show any signs of excessive pressure and I have already resized and cleaned them.

Thank you for your input I'm wondering if annealing is not worth the risk.

 

[dpreston]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

personally I think annealing is worth it, but I was not brave enough to try the method you did. Too many inconsistencies doing it that way. I think you may need to invest in some Templaq. Get some 650 degree (orange) for the middle of the case to the top, and some 400 or 450 (white) for the bottom half. That way you can be sure your not changing the qualities of the brass on the lower half. As soon as the 650 burns, then dump the case in water. You do not want the 450 degree on the bottom to burn at all.

If your in doubt of the brass you annealed and you had pressure problems firing them, I would dump that batch of brass..

If you shoot a lot, invest in one of the annealing machines. They make life a whole lot easier

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Keep in mind that annealing isn't permanent. After 1-3 firings they will be hard again. Don't chunk the brass unless you are sure you got them WAY too hot. If just the mouth/neck of the case was glowing, you didn't hurt anything real bad. If you have already resized and prepped them, I'd go ahead and reload them. Atleast reload 5-10 of them and see if you still have ejection issues on this next firing.

*** Can you post a pic of a few of the annealed cases? I know they've already been fired once, but you should still be able to see how far down the case body the annealing ring is.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

How long did you allow your eyes to acclimate to darkness before you began annealing?

If you began right away, as soon as tge lights were off, you got them hotter than they needed to.

I always give my eyes 5-10 minutes to adjust a bit.

You need propane torch. Takes 6-8 seconds.

If the cases don't shiw pressure, you didn't hurt the casehead, so you didn't ruin your brass.

With 308 and a propane torch, you can hold the casehead in your fingertips, put the case shoulder into the blue point of the flame, twist, and get a perfect anneal *just* as the casehead is too hot to hold anymore.

I don't use water, in fact I use annealing INSTEAD of drying my brass after cleaning in stainless media sometimes.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Oh man, dude, you got The Tactical Annealing Torch there.....I like it.

That's the best addition to an annealing thread on the 'Hide in a LONG time.........

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh man, dude, you got The Tactical Annealing Torch there.....I like it.

That's the best addition to an annealing thread on the 'Hide in a LONG time.........</div></div>

Yes! You like my tactical torch don't you!! I thought it was going to go unnoticed, but your keen ninja eye spotted it. Don't let the duct tape fool you, it's a high tech unit ready for long range torching.


Actually it was just a little too tall for the chair I was sitting in and that's the best rig I could come with without getting up and making a trip outside to the shop. It served the purpose and it's gotten several comments in the past. It's not as good as the tactical toaster, but it's a close second.

 

[Bryan W M]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

turbo54 on 270 and 300wbymag brass should i just hold the case bout where a 308 would be??

thanks

 

[Russell3812]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Thank you everyone for your input. You wouldn't be able to see the annealing ring as it doesn't exist any longer after I cleaned them and hit them afterwards with a piece of steel wool. However, only the case necks showed the type of discoloration like the ones in Trevors photos. That color change didn't occur anywhere past the neck and shoulder of the brass.

From the videos I've watched on annealing and the posts I've read it seems that the proper time and amount of heat are necessary to do this the right way. Something tells me that Trevor's "tactical torch" is the way to go. Very cool setup BTW.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

I find looking for the "faint glow" on the brass leads me to over anneal my necks. I started just looking for the faint change of the flame from blue to orange and my results have been much better. I also switched out the torch head from a pencil flame to a swirl flame. It tends to wash over a greater area.
Just how I do my brass, and I've been happy with the results.. YMMV...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

20 seconds means your flame was too cool or you heated too much. Run your flame as hot as possible and hold neck shoulder junction at the tip of the blue cone inside the flame proper. I spin my brass up this way and it is plenty consistent. Max of 10 seconds should do the trick if your flame is hot enough. as Turbo said my time is usually 6-8 seconds.

I do like the tactical torch

 

[Hunt]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run your flame as hot as possible and hold neck shoulder junction at the tip of the blue cone inside the flame proper. I spin my brass up this way and it is plenty consistent. Max of 10 seconds should do the trick if your flame is hot enough. as Turbo said my time is usually 6-8 seconds.</div></div>

He's spot on.

 

[rommelj]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

I've used the same exact procedure, using the same set up like yours for quite sometimes now, with no problem. Just be consistent and you'll be fine.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh man, dude, you got The Tactical Annealing Torch there.....I like it.

That's the best addition to an annealing thread on the 'Hide in a LONG time.........</div></div>

Yes! You like my tactical torch don't you!! I thought it was going to go unnoticed, but your keen ninja eye spotted it. Don't let the duct tape fool you, it's a high tech unit ready for long range torching.


Actually it was just a little too tall for the chair I was sitting in and that's the best rig I could come with without getting up and making a trip outside to the shop. It served the purpose and it's gotten several comments in the past. It's not as good as the tactical toaster, but it's a close second. </div></div>

I like the pod lock on the TacTorch, can you mount a ACI on it to keep the flame at the correct angle?

In all seriousness, is it necessary to use Tempilaq (sp?), or just "eyeballing" it work fine enough?

 

[mdesign]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Run your flame as hot as possible and hold neck shoulder junction at the tip of the blue cone inside the flame proper. I spin my brass up this way and it is plenty consistent. Max of 10 seconds should do the trick if your flame is hot enough. as Turbo said my time is usually 6-8 seconds...</div></div>

This is the technique I use but I put temperature paint inside the neck to be sure I get the temperature right.

I do not always paint every case but usually just enough to get the "timing" right. In my case I usually count to 5 in a steady rhythm. FWIW, I do not drop them in cold water but let the case cool naturally.

I described the process in an article I wrote on a rifle I built. 300 WSM

Annealing helps my loading process and accuracy, especially at long range.

 

[red hawk]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Get the templaq 650 degree, paint the neck and shoulder and when it turns dump it in water and you are threw.Templaq takes the guess work out and it cheap.I've anneal hundreds and still on the first bottle. Good annealing !!

 

[normbal]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: red hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the templaq 650 degree, paint the neck and shoulder and when it turns dump it in water and you are threw.Templaq takes the guess work out and it cheap.I've anneal hundreds and still on the first bottle. Good annealing !!

</div></div>

I just got into this. Invested in some Lapua brass (.338 LM - i.e., expensive) and want to keep costs down and accuracy (i.e. control internal ballistics) as much as possible.

Saw a guy's video on youtube where he took some deep sockets (metric or SAE) to match case OD, put them on adapters and spun them on a drill in a propane torch flame. I'd done the case in the standing water trick a few years ago and found it to be tedious and uncertain. I put some aluminum foil inside the sockets, stuffed into the bottom as well as lining them to absorb excess heat. Cooling with water won't affect the annealing.

Bought some Tempilaq and went to town. Now I have nice, annealed, like-new cases shot after shot.

Tempilaq, even melted/burned, comes off with a little acetone, FYI.

Some sources say you only need a small dot or streak, I put a line around the cases before holding them in the fire.

.223 cases need about 5-6 seconds, .308 about 7-8, .338 about 9-10 seconds to
anneal the neck and shoulder down to the point where the annealing is done on factory cases, which I used for comparison. YMMV. I'm using a twelve dollar bernzomatic pencil tip torch and propane. MAPP is much hotter but I'm fine with the propane for now.

Go to youtube and look up "annealing brass cases" or variations thereof.

Have fun. Expect to ruin a few cases.

 

[normbal]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh man, dude, you got The Tactical Annealing Torch there.....I like it.

That's the best addition to an annealing thread on the 'Hide in a LONG time.........</div></div>

Great.

It's just a matter of time before this thread degenerates into a "which bipod is best" discussion touting the benefits of the stiffer Atlas versus the ubiquitous and cheaper Harris or Stoney Point or cheap chinese knockoff bipod.

 

[DCR]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Caldwell works just fine for this application...

 

[steve123]

Re: Annealing concerns .......

Hi Russel,

I'll go out on a limb here and say that 20 seconds is too long.

As far as I know there are 5 methods (some perceived as a correct way but according to my tests are not entirely reliable) to determine that the brass is annealed right.

1. The brass color method, looking for that purplely hue.
2. The beginning to glow red in darkness method.
3. The spring back/vise grip method described in a paragragh below.
4. The Tempilaq/tempstick method.
5. Flame color change, zinc burn off ???

I have nearly 900 Lapua 6.5x47L cases(and all my other cartridges) that there is no way in the world I was going to take a chance on ruining. So I used the spring back method as my final judge. I figured that slightly under annealing(or relaxed brass) was much more desirable than ruining a $1000 worth of cases. A Vertex annealing machine was used. It has a fine adjustment for time.

The least reliable indicator in my experimenting was using color change. Some brass changes like we all think a properly annealed case should look like. Some does not change color hardly at all. This was with 5 different cartridge cases(from 223 up to 375CT) of differing brands.

The glow method worked best for me when I'd see the flame change color for a split second. I found that the glow would start just after I saw the flame changed color and I tried to time it so the case left the flame in this instant. Like this except I'd have the case leave the flame a tad sooner. Edit, I couldn't get the video link to work but you can find it here - Bench-Source Case Neck Annealing Machine

Tempilaq seems to coincide with the spring back method the most often as long as it begins to melt when the brass leaves the flame. I'm using 700 degree Tempilaq.

Copied and pasted from the annealing article at accurate shooter.com

<span style="color: #CC9933">The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done–it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:

3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.



Testing Cartridge Brass for Hardness and Softness

This is not a definitive test of case hardness; it is more of an illustration than anything else. It requires a pair of small Vise-Grips and a few bottle neck rifle cases in various conditions of use: a factory fresh empty case, two cases that have not split but have been fired many times, and a couple of extra cases to set the jaws of the Vice Grips.
Place one of the used cases base down in a shallow tray containing water up to the lower third of the case, and deliberately over-heat the case neck–bring it to a red heat.
Adjust the Vise-Grips until the jaws barely touch the case neck when they are fully closed. Then, Carefully adjust them to go a few thousands of an inch beyond that point. the jaws should close until you can just barely visibly detect that the case mouth is deformed when the Vise-Grips are closed.
Ordinary pliers are not good for this demonstration because it is too easy to go too far. Vise-Grips, on the other hand, have an adjustable limit to which they can be closed.
Squeeze the neck of the used, but un-annealed case. Note the pressure required. Also note that when the pressure is released, the case neck springs back to its original shape.
Squeeze the neck of the factory fresh case. Once again note that the case neck springs back to its original shape, and that it takes slightly less pressure to deform it than the un-annealed case.
Now, squeeze the annealed case. The pressure to deform it is markedly less and when it is released, the case mouth remains deformed–no spring.
One more test–stand the annealed case on a metal plate (no water over the base) and heat the upper half to a red heat. Hold the heat for a few seconds and then let it cool. Adjust the Vice-Grips so that they can put considerable squeeze on the head area and crush the annealed case. Now crush one of the normal used cases. The difference is dramatic. Don’t test an over-annealed case in a gun just to see what happens–take my word for it, the results can be dangerous to life, limb and eye, not to mention the condition of the gun. Finally, crush all test cases so that they won’t get mixed in with good brass.
If you are a chemist or a metallurgist and know how to do it, you can make some photomicrographs of sections taken from the various critical points of several cases for reference. Of coarse, you could have been out on the range having a good time instead of fussing with such things, but to each his own.</span>

Hope this helps some.