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Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

N

nuclabuyer

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 30, 2010
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Nucla, Co
What would be the drawbacks to using a mag primer in a non mag caliber? I have done it for a long time and never even thought about it. I have mostly mag calibers so I just used what I had, and my accuracy is about 1 moa at 100 from a DPMS 308 with a 16" barrel. I am just curious to know if you think that a standard Fed 210m or a CCI BR2 would be better for accuracy then a Federal 215M or if the are any other drawback that I have not seen. I have looked at cases and dont see any over pressure signs, no loose primer pockets etc and case life seems to be fine. I will load up some with some BR2 and shoot them tomarrow, just curious if anyone knows of a drawback.

thankss
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

Use a tool for what it's designed to do.

Magnum primers are intended to achieve reliable ignition with long, dense powder columns.

I don't know what the consequences of using them would be for situation not calling for that, because I believe in using the right tool for the job.

If there's a benefit to not doing that, I'll probably never know. Life's too short to waste any of it on doing something that's already not recommended.

Greg
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

the magnum primers usually have a harder cup than non magnum, to take the back pressure without rupturing, the primer compound is the same. If you can reliably ignate the magnum primers go for it, it won't hurt anything. As long as your load is safe because you won't be able to tell by the primer flatening.
hope this helps.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

From what I understand Lapua uses a Large Rifle Magnum primer as the primer in their 308/7.62 HPS ammo, along with the 170gr Lockbase and Bofors RP11 powder. The thinking, as it was related to me, was that the use of the non-standard primer was for reason of more reliable ignition.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the magnum primers usually have a harder cup than non magnum, to take the back pressure without rupturing, the primer compound is the same. If you can reliably ignate the magnum primers go for it, it won't hurt anything. As long as your load is safe because you won't be able to tell by the primer flatening.
hope this helps.</div></div>

Thats interesting as I have seen A-square data as well as mfg warnings stating they do actually burn hotter as they are ment to ignite a larger column of powder. That said you can use them just start on the low side and work them up.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

Probably goes without saying that they could and probably will change the pressure on the load so you would need to start over with.

I am actually interested in the reverse...seems quite a few people like non-mag primers in the magnum rounds like 300WM and 7RM, claiming better accuracy. Others have done so and experience ignition problems and hang fires, which is far worse than an accuracy problem.

I'd like to see some stats or scientific analysis of std and mag primers in various common calibers but I haven't seen anything like that anywhere.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

I have seen on the internet a comparison of regular and magnum primers fired in a holder, and the flash photographed. The magnum primer has a bit more fuel, to produce a larger flame to more consistently ignite the longer powder column, and to better flash through more compact powder columns, as with ball powders. In the photographs, there was a distinct difference in the flame from the primers, the magnum primer being the larger.
I have used magnum primers in pistol and rifle cartriges for years, with no adverse effects. Do start with a lower charge of powder and work up as usual.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

If you use ball powders in a rifle, magnum primers are ideal for completely burning all the powder. I've used magnum primers for years in non magnum rifles with no problems, I actually prefer them over non-magnum powders to ensure I burn all the powder, which means a bit less fouling.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

I have heard, that they are equal to roughly 1 gr of powder. I know that makes little to no sense. Is it equal to 1 gr of Unique or 1 gr of Retumbo, a little difference there. However, I have used that with decent results and really have never noticed anything that would make me think that they were unsafe in anyway. I was curious to know if anyone had any thing that would make we want to shoot standard 210 over the 215's. Sounds like everyone pretty much has the same take as I do. They might be a touch hotter so start a little lower then you would with the standard primer.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

See if you can find an article from about two years ago in "Handloader" magazine. A man did a very extensive test and report on primers with Varget in the .308, and found the best consistency, in his rifle of course, with CCI 250 primers.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

Magnum primers are hotter (temp and flame) and thicker. Needed for ball powder. No problem with loads if you worked them up with a magnum primer. Near max loads worked up with a standard primer may be over max with a magnum primer.

I've read that a standard primer may create less bullet upset in the chamber when engaging the rifling. Don't know if it makes a difference in anything ther than bench rest or not.

I load CCI-400's and Varget for mag length AR and Wolf Small Rifle Magnum and Varget for Berger 80.5's at 1K.

Remember the "old" Winchester Small Rifle primer that was used as either a magnum or non-magnum primer. Pretty much meant you were using a magnum primer. WSR, 25 grains H335 (ball powder) for 52-55 gr bullets in .223.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

This guy, guns andjeeps is stating the same concept as I have always believed, it's spherical powders, especially at low ambient temperatures where mag primers show to advantage. That is in addition to large quantities of stick powder...(sometimes), because I have always used LR primers in 300WM, as is shown in many manuals.

I think, as the original poster stated, that especially with a short barrel, he is probably robbing some efficiency in his powder charge. Without a proper ignition, the pressure peaks much too soon so you are defeating the purpose, to some extent.

I don't know? Seems like some of the usage might be "macho"? Hey, I always use MAG primers! I wouldn't use mag primers unless I had a good logical reason. For me, the only possibility would be ball powder in extremely low temperatures. But, what do I know? BB

edit: I'm saying you should justify the use of mag primers and unless the data clearly states mag primers, you really don't have a good reason, and you may be defeating your propellant of choice?
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

not sure if the photos show up if you aren't logged in but here's some photos of the differences between the primers. As someone else noted, these were taken with a cut off case so you can see exactly what each primer is doing with the same exposure values:

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

as others also stated, it's usually best to do what the books say for your round, but if you have to make changes start at the bottom again and work your way up there. There are plenty of cases where different primers may or may not work better than the 'standard' situation. I know as an example that some powders in 357 magnum and 44 magnum really need magnum primers (h110), vs. other powders you really don't need them and still get good results. Same in rifle cartridges, there are some that swear that small pistol primers in 22 hornet is the only way to get accurate loads out of that round. But again it probably comes down to your rifle, your loads, your powder, your temps, etc.

also when the primer shortages were around a few years ago, seems everyone was asking 'can i use xxx primer when it calls for yyy primer?'. More than likely yes, but you have to start low and work you way up and see if you have ignition problems, and does it work for your load/gun/etc.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use a tool for what it's designed to do.

Magnum primers are intended to achieve reliable ignition with long, dense powder columns.

I don't know what the consequences of using them would be for situation not calling for that, because I believe in using the right tool for the job.

If there's a benefit to not doing that, I'll probably never know. Life's too short to waste any of it on doing something that's already not recommended.

Greg </div></div>

Greg, normally I see you give great, informative advice here, but I respectfully disagree.

Your post implies one should use a "magnum" primer if, and only if, the cartridge you are loading is named "xyz <span style="font-style: italic"> Magnum</span>"...which really isn't true.

For starters, there are "tweener" cartridges, such as 30-06, that can honestly take either primer. As others have mentioned, ball-type powders often times require magnum primers in non-magnum cases for reliable and consistent ignition. Still other cartridges, while "magnums", don't need a magnum primer, most notably the short, and super-short mags - particularly with stick powders.

In short, there is no black/white answer to the question.

The theory is the weakest and most gentle primer that reliably and consistently yields goid ignition and complete combustion is the primer you want. Is it true? I dunno.

I DO know that a magum primer in a specifically NON-magnum cartridge won't hurt anything (other than accuracy, potentially), provided safe and proper liad workup us followed.

Also, peak chamber pressure has nothing to do with mag/non-mag primers, as there are plenty of examples of non-mags that SAAMI allows more pressure in than actual mags.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, peak chamber pressure has nothing to do with mag/non-mag primers, as there are plenty of examples of non-mags that SAAMI allows more pressure in than actual mags.</div></div>

I don't know that I agree with this? Not saying you are wrong, but there is usually a good reason for using a standard LR or SR primer. I "think" you are inferring that the use of mag primers has little, or no effect on what? Pressure? Can I assume that a magnum primer has "nothing to do with peak chamber pressure". Not that it will hurt anything, it can be done, but I don't think that is the point: that you can do it. I think it's a matter of advisability. Is it advisable to use mag primers without a logical reason? Maybe all we need is mag primers, in that case? BB
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, peak chamber pressure has nothing to do with mag/non-mag primers, as there are plenty of examples of non-mags that SAAMI allows more pressure in than actual mags.</div></div>

I don't know that I agree with this? Not saying you are wrong, but there is usually a good reason for using a standard LR or SR primer. I "think" you are inferring that the use of mag primers has little, or no effect on what? Pressure? Can I assume that a magnum primer has "nothing to do with peak chamber pressure". Not that it will hurt anything, it can be done, but I don't think that is the point: that you can do it. I think it's a matter of advisability. Is it advisable to use mag primers without a logical reason? Maybe all we need is mag primers, in that case? BB
</div></div>

Youve misunderstood me. The theory, and my belief is best accuracy will usually be found using tge weakest primer that will do the job.

My point about pressure was in regard to the claim the primer cup of a mag primer is thicker, to handle "higher" magnum chamber pressures... My point is that this is a fallacy. There are magnums that, according to SAAMI, have a lower permissible peak pressure than some non-magnums.

A magnum primer WILL generally produce higher pressure than a non-magnum primer, ALL other things being equal.

Maybe you could save a few ¢ per round on powder (by using less) by using mag primers???
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

In that case, I think we are on the same page, generally. Apologies. BB
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

Some loads I use standard and some I use BR primers and others I use mag primers. It is not specific to only those where reccomended so I too have to respectfully disagree with Greg. I have a 223 load with 80gr Matchkings and a liberal charge of Varget, that I get best accuracy using a 450, rather than a BR-4...go figure. I had the same anomaly in a 6BR I was loading with Varget. Most folks assume that the BR primer is easily the most accurate but its not always so.
It depends. Using a magnum primer is not going to hurt, it may be more than you need but it will get the job done. If I had a load that should work but just isn't producing the low ES and SD numbers then it may pay to switch primers and work the load back up again and see what happens. The magnum primers can give low numbers just as well as other primers depending on the cartridge and the gun.
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

That Salazar is a very interesting fellow. Writes "rifle porn" and makes me feel truly humble, which is normally hard to do.

I don't know much about chasing various primers because I standardized primers a long time ago. Except in specific circumstances, (223) I use the 210M in everything. It may not always be optimum, but I don't worry about it. BB
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

OK; I can relent.

I have tried magnum (CCI-250) primers for .280 Rem and H-4831SC. No more accurate then BR-2's or CCI-200's. I draw my line for magnum primers at or around cases in the .30-'06 length

For ball powders, I think the Winchester primers are a better choice, since the Winchester W- series powders are ball powders and these are the powders the WSR and WLR primers are used for with Win factory ammo. I use WLR primers for my Garand loads.

Greg
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

Nothing in the above post with which to disagree...except the typo. I assume he means 4831SC?

And, mag primers in a '06 capacity case? Personal choice, and not a bad solution, depending.

However, as I said, I load 300WM with the Winchester LR primer and 80 grains of 4831 and have never felt the need to change anything. Apparently, according to the lawyers that write the books, it's a hot load? And, I don't have to use a special die to resize the body above the belt.

Getting off topic, which bugs some people, but anyway. I didn't look at thelink for primer intensities. I have always assumed that the Winchester 8.5/120 LR primer was a little hotter burning than some others; most others. BB
 
Re: Mag Primer in a non Mag caliber

I use Magnum primers in round with ball powder and most of my hunting loads due to the extreme cold we encounter here in Wyoming.

That is not a standing rule in my reloading room, but it is a good rule of thumb.
 
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