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Sidearms & Scatterguns How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

turbo54

turbo54

Mr. 7mm
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 10, 2010
4,995
31
44
Michigan
#1
I've got 15k-20k rounds of 45 and 10mm under my belt, and I consider myself a competent pistol shooter, but I am really struggling with speed. I'm slow. Not ridiculously slow, but certainly not fast.

I have searched the internet trying to learn/discover training techniques for acquiring better speed, but have come up rather empty.

Essentially, all I've found are pointers on grip (mine is good), front sight focus, and breaking the mental barrier.

Certainly PART of my issue is my precision marksmanship mentality - not firing until the sight alignment is perfect - and even then, being sure to adhere to good trigger control. I've been somewhat successful in overcoming that with pistols, but not entirely.

My question is: Do y'all know of any techniques/training/drills or even educational resources to help someone acquire excellent pistol shooting speed, while still being able to (usually) hit your target?

For reference, I can hit six 8" plates at 50ft with six or seven shots in ~5.5-6 seconds starting from a low ready, finger off the trigger. I'd like to be in the 3.5-4 second zone, and I'm just not getting there.
 
#2
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

The standard drill is the Bill Drill. Draw and fire 6 shots on an IPSC target at 7 yards, all A hits only. Professionals will do it in less than 2 seconds.

Start slow and continually push yourself till you can no longer get all A hits.

Go shoot some USPSA matches, that will greatly improve your speed.
 
#3
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Yes, attend as many shoots as you can.
Shooter training is even better.

Work on grip, body position (npa), visualization, sequence, trigger reset, and resetting your bulls eye clock.

If you can't control the recoil you can't get back on target quickly. Starsky and Hutch does nothing for speed. If you think your grip is good it could probably be better. Every shooter class I have taken has improved my grip...I assume this is never done.

Present your body position to the target and adjust your natural point of aim. Maintaining that form though the shots has been a key contributor to increasing my speed. Attend a steel shoot and you will see the top shooters square up authoritatively and set themselves up before they engage the targets.

Visualization of the sequence is crucial (mop up the miss last). My SWAT buddy tells me he knows which bad guy is going first...Kind of surprised me to think of such an intense a situation that way, but that is what he was trained to do. Clear you mind of the none essentials so your brain just has to shoot.


Visualization....It sounds strange, but if you take your pointing finger (no gun) and point at a plate rack (or whatever sequence of targets) and go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang 10-50 times while visualizing center hits your times will go down....I shit you not...try it!
Once again, attend a shoot and you will see all of the top shooters heavily engaged in visualizing.

The trigger is everything and I could write a book on reset itself. There is much to be gained here so dig deep and be self critical.

The bulls eye clock:
As we struggle to build precision into our shooting we often allow the process an inordinate amount of time...Waiting patiently for the sights to align and squeezzzzing the trigger. The issue here is our brain gets into a timed pattern and does not want to change....Force it to do change. Focus on the target with determination and intensity. Squeeze off the shot the instant the sights align. If they float off put the gun down and do it again.
Up, out, bang!
This is a big one for me.
Good luck!!
 
#4
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

First of all your speed ain't that bad.......that probably better than most to be honest.

I think you already know your problem though. You're thinking like a target shooter. It was being discussed in another thread here and I had made the point that precise target shooting is actually counter productive in some cases to simulated combat shooting.

You have to stop thinking perfect sight alignment and think instinct and front sight........front sight front sight front sight..

Don't be scared to miss while you practice.

In fact, I say throw marksmanship right out the window for a few range sessions. Break the mold a bit just by going for pure speed, damn your accuracy.......as long as you're not throwing them over the berm.

Get used to shooting for pure speed, then reel it back in and start applying accuracy principles until you find a good balance.


Form will be big over sight alignment. A high grip, thumbs forward, ISO stance, no weaver stuff, in fact just the opposite.....strong foot forward a tad, drive into the gun.....think immoveable object in the hands but maneuverability in the legs and hips......so you can transition to other targets well.


Most importantly though I say don't be scared to miss. The marksmen in us wants to hit with every shot and that will kill your speed. You've got the fundementals obviously for accuracy, just let the speed start to take a bit more priority and your accuracy will follow.
 
#5
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, attend as many shoots as you can.
Shooter training is even better.

Work on grip, body position (npa), visualization, sequence, trigger reset, and resetting your bulls eye clock.

If you can't control the recoil you can't get back on target quickly. Starsky and Hutch does nothing for speed. If you think your grip is good it could probably be better. Every shooter class I have taken has improved my grip...I assume this is never done.

Present your body position to the target and adjust your natural point of aim. Maintaining that form though the shots has been a key contributor to increasing my speed. Attend a steel shoot and you will see the top shooters square up authoritatively and set themselves up before they engage the targets.

Visualization of the sequence is crucial (mop up the miss last). My SWAT buddy tells me he knows which bad guy is going first...Kind of surprised me to think of such an intense a situation that way, but that is what he was trained to do. Clear you mind of the none essentials so your brain just has to shoot.


Visualization....It sounds strange, but if you take your pointing finger (no gun) and point at a plate rack (or whatever sequence of targets) and go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang 10-50 times while visualizing center hits your times will go down....I shit you not...try it!
Once again, attend a shoot and you will see all of the top shooters heavily engaged in visualizing.

The trigger is everything and I could write a book on reset itself. There is much to be gained here so dig deep and be self critical.

The bulls eye clock:
As we struggle to build precision into our shooting we often allow the process an inordinate amount of time...Waiting patiently for the sights to align and squeezzzzing the trigger. The issue here is our brain gets into a timed pattern and does not want to change....Force it to do change. Focus on the target with determination and intensity. Squeeze off the shot the instant the sights align. If they float off put the gun down and do it again.
Up, out, bang!
This is a big one for me.
Good luck!!
</div></div>

All excellent points. I hesitate to train myself on the reset, though, because under certain conditions you may not feel it. Also, every weapon has a different reset. Glocks are very pronounced while my Beretta 92 is a little more subtle.

It's easier said than done, but getting back on target quickly will cut down a lot on time.

This video comes to mind. There's a few sequences in there when he ramps up the speed very accurately and he does a good job of riding the weapon through recoil right back on target. Getting it to settle back on target quickly and accurately is just one way to cut down on time. He also has another video that explains his technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYQ_jLyS_0
 
#6
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

How does one mediate recoil/muzzle flip of shooting that fast with a 45 or 10mm? I guess that falls back on grip/technique?
 
#7
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Your are correct, good proper grip and trigger control, are best bang for buck. Stance plays a roll too. Dont go for fast when training just keep picking up the pace until you miss then start again at a slower pace and pick it up until you miss and so on. Fundimentals are paramount, front sight, trigger control, dont anticipate, breath control.
 
#9
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Another useful drill is to set a par time, then hit the target as many times as you can at the given distance and size, before the time expires.

Keep trying to put more rounds in it until you miss.

For example, you have a 6" target at 7 yards...set your par time to 2 seconds... shoot 2 rounds. Do it again, try for 3, do it again, try for 4, etc.

Your "groups" should be opening up until you are really using the entire scoring zone, and not just hammering the center of it like you were when you only had 2 shots to make.

Keep pushing to put more rounds in it within the given time. You're teaching your brain what you can get away with. Understanding what you can get away with for each difficulty shot, and how much time you need to spend on lining it up is how you get to perform at your own personal best.

Improving your best comes with coaching and instruction from quality instructors, self exploration on the timer to see what techniques benefit you in what way, etc.

Over time, you'll start using the sights differently, moving your hands different, using your eyes and your focus differently, etc. That is going to come with repetition, experimentation, and observing better shooters than you and seeing how they attack the same problems.
 
#10
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

I think shooting steel is great for learning how to pick up speed and working on the mindset of not being ahead of the shot, or behind the shot, but having your head 100% into the current shot.

I still pull this book out some and read it, and I would strongly encourage you to pick up a copy. http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506

Like others have said, if you really wanna go fast - allow yourself to call an A and a C good, as long as it was really was the ragged edge for you.


Good luck
 
#11
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think shooting steel is great for learning how to pick up speed and working on the mindset of not being ahead of the shot, or behind the shot, but having your head 100% into the current shot.

I still pull this book out some and read it, and I would strongly encourage you to pick up a copy. http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506

Like others have said, if you really wanna go fast - allow yourself to call an A and a C good, as long as it was really was the ragged edge for you.


Good luck </div></div>

I would take this advice(not that the others are bad). I put alot of emphasis on all Alphas when I first started shooting and the speed came later. Shoot as many matches as you can as there is no substitute for the buzzer anticipation/excitement. You'll know when you're shooting your best because you won't remember the sight alignment/picture if you're moving fast. It all becomes automatic and falls in line. VISUALIZE how you want to shoot the stage, transition from target to target, engage in the order you planned and reload while you're moving. Don't fight the recoil. That front sight will bounce around on recoil. Once you reach the 'trigger freeze' stage, you'll know that you're making progress.....lol. And most of all, SHOOT!!! Steel is my favorite and by the time the first popper hits the ground, I'm usually onto the 4th or 5th one. I can hear my misses, unlike when shooting paper. Steel matches are the best.
smile.gif
 
#12
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

The biggest thing for me was learning to put more emphasis on how much and how fast I was seeing. Next time you're shooting, focus your attention on your vision- seeing your sights crisply, how your vision shifts as you transition targets, and EXACTLY what the sights looked like when the trigger broke. It made a huge difference in my performance.
 
#13
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

You guys probably already know this stuff...I did not.
Thought I would drag it by anyway.

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<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_h9rKDEXPvM&feature=g-u-u&context=G26eb89bFUAAAAAAACAA"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_h9rKDEXPvM&feature=g-u-u&context=G26eb89bFUAAAAAAACAA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

I got a huge bonus from the first one.
smile.gif
 
#14
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys probably already know this stuff...I did not.
Thought I would drag it by anyway.


I got a huge bonus from the first one.
smile.gif
</div></div>

Saw this today on my youtube page, giving it a watch now.

Jesus look at his recoil control on that 1911 in the second video
shocked.gif
 
#15
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Pistol comps have a minimum power factor of 125k for the lower classes, that is the speed of the bullet times it's weight must be above 125000, I shoot a G35, my pistol load is a 180 going 725fps, that is a PF of 130ish, I just watch my sights move back and forth, muzzle flip is non existent, and my speed n accuracy have improved big time, 45 and 10mm are not the cals to learn to shoot faster with the same accuracy, get yourself a 9 or 40 and load heavies at a slow speed and your speed will improve.
 
#16
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pistol comps have a minimum power factor of 125k for the lower classes, that is the speed of the bullet times it's weight must be above 125000, I shoot a G35, my pistol load is a 180 going 725fps, that is a PF of 130ish, I just watch my sights move back and forth, muzzle flip is non existent, and my speed n accuracy have improved big time, 45 and 10mm are not the cals to learn to shoot faster with the same accuracy, get yourself a 9 or 40 and load heavies at a slow speed and your speed will improve. </div></div>

9mm is pretty easy to control for me. I dislike the .40's snappy feel to it but at the same time understand it has low muzzle flip compared to the .45. Though i shoot a G21, it's my first handgun i agree. The flip of the 45 is somewhat a beast to control, and rapid fire at my beginner stage is non existant. Though i'm getting better, the problem that accumulates with me is breaking my wrist. When i do a slow press to the rear (coming from shooting a rifle) i've always been relaxed. So when doing so on the handgun i tend to relax and my wrist breaks. I've counteracted it by keeping it locked but it's also causing me to push forward a little to mitigate the recoil. Vertical displacement is reduced but i get a bit of horizontal drift. Though my results are slowly improving and i've been disappointed, i've run through 500rds in a month lol. A lot for me considering college and only being able to shoot on the weekends. Handguns are so fun
smile.gif
 
#17
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

To add to everything else that has already been mentioned, the front sight will tell you how fast you can shoot accurately. A huge breakthrough for me occured when I was finally able to train myself to focus on the front sight exclusively. Using the Enos technique of making my front sight my speedometer I am able to trigger the shot when my front sight is in the target for an "accecptable" hit. I learned that when my front sight was back down from recoil and floating in the A zone I could break the shot. If you can't focus on the front sight then you will spray bullets all over the target. The other part of the equation (and proably the most important) is to pull the trigger straight back to the rear. This is the balance of speed vs accuracy. 7 yards and closer allow me to blaze away and get good hits. Further than that I have to slow down a bit.

Another great drill that Rob Letham uses is to set a par time on a timer at 5 seconds. Shoot 5 strings of fire increasing the number of rounds each time (i.e. 1 shot on string 1, 2 shots on string 2, etc) untill you get to 5 shots in 5 seconds. It was amazing how much time that is. After working that drill at a few training sessions, I was able to get 12 rounds in the A zone in 5 seconds from 7 yards.

Good luck and keep shooting.

Guns
 
#18
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Saw this today on my youtube page, giving it a watch now.

Jesus look at his recoil control on that 1911 in the second video
shocked.gif
</div></div>

Yah, full power 230 grain ball!
Did you see how much love that 45 has seen?
That gun looks so dam awesome.
smile.gif
 
#20
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Don't be scared to miss while you practice.

In fact, I say throw marksmanship right out the window for a few range sessions. Break the mold a bit just by going for pure speed, damn your accuracy.......as long as you're not throwing them over the berm.

Get used to shooting for pure speed, then reel it back in and start applying accuracy principles until you find a good balance.


Most importantly though I say don't be scared to miss. The marksmen in us wants to hit with every shot and that will kill your speed. You've got the fundementals obviously for accuracy, just let the speed start to take a bit more priority and your accuracy will follow. </div></div>


This is exactly what I was told to do , and over a short period of time accuracy came back. I was pulling down and left when I would shoot for speed so I was slowing down to keep accuracy. I was told I was over muscling it. When I started just shooting for speed the muscles started reacting to recoil and not over doing it. I still have to admit that I can't shoot my 45 fast, but my 38 super isn't too bad.
 
#21
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got 15k-20k rounds of 45 and 10mm under my belt, and I consider myself a competent pistol shooter, but I am really struggling with speed. I'm slow. Not ridiculously slow, but certainly not fast.

I have searched the internet trying to learn/discover training techniques for acquiring better speed, but have come up rather empty.

Essentially, all I've found are pointers on grip (mine is good), front sight focus, and breaking the mental barrier.

Certainly PART of my issue is my precision marksmanship mentality - not firing until the sight alignment is perfect - and even then, being sure to adhere to good trigger control. I've been somewhat successful in overcoming that with pistols, but not entirely.

My question is: Do y'all know of any techniques/training/drills or even educational resources to help someone acquire excellent pistol shooting speed, while still being able to (usually) hit your target?

For reference, I can hit six 8" plates at 50ft with six or seven shots in ~5.5-6 seconds starting from a low ready, finger off the trigger. I'd like to be in the 3.5-4 second zone, and I'm just not getting there. </div></div>

Alright well I'm not a Rob l, Brian E or the like but I am a mid A class steel shooter or used to be anyways, probably more like a High B now??? I used to shoot the American Handgunner World Shootoff for many years which is all man on man and all steel, funnest shooting matches ever but stressful. I advanced all the way up from unclassified to winning B class. Anyone who wins A class in this event is pretty much a top 1.5% nationally ranked steel shooter just to give you some context. I used to be able to do six 8" plates in 3 seconds at 12y, maybe a little less from the holster on a good run.

Here's some conclusions I've come to.

1. You can't miss fast enough to win,LOL. In other words your/our ability level is what it is. The only way to improve speed while maintaining accuracy is to practice correctly and often.

You mentioned 15-20 thousand rounds down your pistol barrels. Believe it or not that is not very much. You wonder how the pro's got so good? They put 50,000 rounds down their barrels a year(give or take some) and have been doing so for many years! Talk about refining technique and muscle memory, WOW, practicing that much will do the trick. There was a guy I knew of back then that got involved in a local pistol club but more importantly bought a lead bullet business. The years previous he was in the middle of the pack as far as ability level. The next year after having access to as many bullets as he wanted to practice with he won A class!

As has been mentioned. Having a light trigger and reduced loads goes a long way concerning speed while maintaining accuracy.

Some of the best things I learned were pressing strait through on the trigger, cocking the week hand wrist down while holding a tighter grip with the week hand as it is wrapped around the strong hand.

Smooth is fast. Economy of motion is fast. Efficiency is fast. Oh... not missing is fast
grin.gif




 
#22
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Thanks for the input so far. Those videos and the tips were what I was looking for.

Couple points:

1. I recognize 15k rounds is NOT a lot, and I wasn't bragging. Just providing reference so y'all had a good idea where I stand.

2. For most things I've learned to be good at, the best method for ME has been to jump in WFO, make mistakes, and learn from them. Pussy footing on the bunny slope has never been a great educational method for me - hence 45/10mm. When I am at risk of hurting myself, such as reloading or actually skiing, I DO start on the bunny slope.

3. Since posting, I've dumped about 1k rounds. 500 or so with no regard to accuracy, simply to break the mind barrier. 500 with a mindset of some accuracy, but more focus on speed. I think I've jumped a hurdle. I can now keep "doubletaps" inside about 8-10" at 7 yards. I'm definitely improving!
 
#23
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

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I sure wouldn't mind being able to shoot like Dave Sevigny
 
#24
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

My advice FWIW is find some damn good instruction and develope an unfailing muscle memory and instinct.

You need to be where your training takes over and just deals with it.........

I shot this little video clip today and tried to illustrate what muscle memory and instict can do for you. Fired from 30 feet and a basic two hand combat stance. The first two rounds are obviously fired on target, then when I broke the third shot I had my son give me a little shove on my right arm which jacked the muzzle hard left, and just let it fly from there...letting muscle memory take over to bring me back on target. One quick pointer, even though the gun did, my eyes and concentration never left the intended point of impact.

I don't know if it really proves anything to anyone but me, or if it helps you, but it was fun and the bad guy suffered multiple GSW center mass.......

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#29
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

ie. get a stronger spring for your 10 and 45. won't tame down to 9mm levels but you'll get close.
 
#30
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

For the OP, when you mention shooting a plate rack faster the key thing to learn is transition speed. You need to drive your eyes faster from target to target. Your eyes have to get to the next target before the sights do and web the sights catch up, press the shot and get your eyes moving to the next target.
I'll post a video of a good transition drill, the first three runs are what you want to pay attention to, ignore the rest of the video.
Draw and place 1 shot in each of the center zones of the target (you can use IPSC, IDPA or USPSA targets) left to right an then repeat twice for a total of 9 rounds, .5 second penalty for any shot outside the center scoring zone.
The video is an open gun but at that distance (7m) with my .45 the time is about the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gga2u0PPRT4
 
#31
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

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#32
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Pistol-training.com

FWIW, you don't need 50,000 rounds per year or whatever was quoted to become really good. With the right practice, a fraction of the 15-20K that the OP cited can make you a really good shooter.

PERFECT practice makes perfect. Lots of rounds downrange without the right technique do not.
 
#34
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

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Buddy of mine shooting with a helmet cam at byram. I know this thread is old, but since i started shooting uspsa i've been trying to get faster. Trigger control and target acquisition seems to be key. Taking my time though, so far seeing some improvement.
 
#36
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

I shot combat pistol in Alaska, and besides the quote about "Slower is faster" double the amount of ammo under your belt.
I probably shot 500rds a day, 4 years in a row (Summer/fall only) and still did not consider myself IPSEC level but shot quite well (8th in semi nationals).

When the pistol is an extension of your arm you are ready to speed it up. Even in HS I shot SO SO much BB's out of my BB gun that I could point and shoot (Fishing bobbers in the pond were my targets).

Don't try to be fast, try to be accurate and let the speed build up.

Is there such a thing as Highpower/Across the course for Pistol? That would certainly help.
 
#37
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

Arctic Light: I've found, over the course of shooting pistols for a decent number of years now, that forcing myself to go faster was the only way to actually go faster. Focusing only on being sure to make good shots kept me slow. Getting out of my comfort zone, and missing a bit really helped me. I've found each incremental improvement BEGINS with me knocking down all six plates faster than ever before - and wondering how in the f#$ I did it - as if the gun ran away and did it all by itself. Then, with more practice, I'll match that speed in complete control. That's when it's time to "force it" again. At least for me...
 
#38
Re: How to shoot fast (and somewhat accurately)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot combat pistol in Alaska, and besides the quote about "Slower is faster" double the amount of ammo under your belt.
I probably shot 500rds a day, 4 years in a row (Summer/fall only) and still did not consider myself IPSEC level but shot quite well (8th in semi nationals).

When the pistol is an extension of your arm you are ready to speed it up. Even in HS I shot SO SO much BB's out of my BB gun that I could point and shoot (Fishing bobbers in the pond were my targets).

Don't try to be fast, try to be accurate and let the speed build up.

Is there such a thing as Highpower/Across the course for Pistol? That would certainly help.</div></div>

I always hear both sides. Some say speed then accuracy others say accuracy then speed. I've always thought the same accuracy then speed.
 
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