are windage and elevation adjustments dependent upon magnification with second focal plan. E.g. If I'm at 8x magnification on a 3.5-15x scope and I see my shot is .5 mils low, the adjustment would still be .5 mils? Do I need to be at maximum magnification to apply the same adjustment as a first focal plan scope? I've only used a mil/mil scope with a first focal plane. Thanks in advance.
Rifle Scopes ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
- Thread starter Flynn
- Start date
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
It would all depend on the scope manufacturer, and what magnification they have it calibrated for. Like my Vortex, it is calibrated to be correct at 15X, which is maximum.
Check with your scope manufacturers info to see what it specs.
DK
It would all depend on the scope manufacturer, and what magnification they have it calibrated for. Like my Vortex, it is calibrated to be correct at 15X, which is maximum.
Check with your scope manufacturers info to see what it specs.
DK
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
The value of each "click" of adjustment will be the same whether you are at 5x of 15x. If you are using the reticle for ranging with a SFP, you need to see what that manufacture has it calibrated for. Many of the SFP scopes are calibrated for use at maximum power for ranging purposes but you will have to check with your specific scope to verify. If you have the box or paperwork it will be mentioned there; if not, contact the manufacture and they will let you know.
The value of each "click" of adjustment will be the same whether you are at 5x of 15x. If you are using the reticle for ranging with a SFP, you need to see what that manufacture has it calibrated for. Many of the SFP scopes are calibrated for use at maximum power for ranging purposes but you will have to check with your specific scope to verify. If you have the box or paperwork it will be mentioned there; if not, contact the manufacture and they will let you know.
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
If your scope is calibrated to mil at 15x and you are at 7.5x and see your impact 0.5mils off, you would need to correct 1mil since your mil-dots are 1/2 value at that magnification. Some SFP scopes have a tick mark at the 1/2 way mark, some have a detent.
If your scope is calibrated to mil at 15x and you are at 7.5x and see your impact 0.5mils off, you would need to correct 1mil since your mil-dots are 1/2 value at that magnification. Some SFP scopes have a tick mark at the 1/2 way mark, some have a detent.
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
I think it's also important to mention that if you're using a SFP optic, to verify where the true half way point is in the magnification range. For example in a 4-16X optic it might not be right at 8X on the magnification ring. My NF 2.5-10 is a good example, 10X is 10X on the ring, 2.5X is 2.5X on the ring, but the true 5X setting is actually closer to the 4X on the ring. It doesn't bug me that it's this way, I just marked it so that I know where it is exactly and run with it from there. Lindy has a good article on optically checking riflescopes here:
http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/ScopeChecking/
I think it's also important to mention that if you're using a SFP optic, to verify where the true half way point is in the magnification range. For example in a 4-16X optic it might not be right at 8X on the magnification ring. My NF 2.5-10 is a good example, 10X is 10X on the ring, 2.5X is 2.5X on the ring, but the true 5X setting is actually closer to the 4X on the ring. It doesn't bug me that it's this way, I just marked it so that I know where it is exactly and run with it from there. Lindy has a good article on optically checking riflescopes here:
http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/ScopeChecking/
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
Thanks for the replies. Basically, there's no real advantage to a mil/mil over a moa/moa with a second focal plane scope. A second focal plane scope is probably better with a moa/moa (depending on use).
I take that back, because an moa/moa scope would also be calibrated at a specific magnification. So for a rifle/scope intended for multi-purpose use, hunting and long range (700-1000 yards using max magnification) a mil/mil scope has the same benefits of a first focal plane scope. Thanks again
Thanks for the replies. Basically, there's no real advantage to a mil/mil over a moa/moa with a second focal plane scope. A second focal plane scope is probably better with a moa/moa (depending on use).
I take that back, because an moa/moa scope would also be calibrated at a specific magnification. So for a rifle/scope intended for multi-purpose use, hunting and long range (700-1000 yards using max magnification) a mil/mil scope has the same benefits of a first focal plane scope. Thanks again
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster.
If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster.
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies. Basically, there's no real advantage to a mil/mil over a moa/moa with a second focal plane scope. A second focal plane scope is probably better with a moa/moa (depending on use).
I take that back, because an moa/moa scope would also be calibrated at a specific magnification. So for a rifle/scope intended for multi-purpose use, hunting and long range (700-1000 yards using max magnification) a mil/mil scope has the same benefits of a first focal plane scope. Thanks again </div></div>
What?
Okay check it out...advantage of FFP is that the reticle will hold it's true value at any power level. SFP only holds it's true value and one specific power level. This is true no matter what kind of reticle or adjustment you have.
If you have a SFP scope that you <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NEVER</span></span> take off of the specific power setting for which the reticle is true, there would be no advantage to having a FFP scope... in this ONE, SINGLE, NARROW situation.
However, if you EVER take the scope off of the specific power level for which the reticle is true, there is an advantage to a FFP scope, as with the FFP, your values per the reticle will always be the true values, not diminished or increased.
Let me make this clear once again:
SFP- reticle holds true values on only ONE SPECIFIC POWER
FFP- Reticle holds true values on the entire range of power
Adjustments: Will hold true value no matter what plane (SFP OR FFP) your reticle is on.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-size: 14pt">So to break this down further:</span></span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">SFP scope, 5-20x50, Mil/Mil:</span></span>
-You mil an impact on 20x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 10x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 2 mil and you adjust 2 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 5x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 4 mil and you adjust 4 mil right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">SFP scope, 5-20, MOA/MOA:</span></span>
-You measure an impact on 20x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 10x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 8 moa and you adjust 8 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 5x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 16 moa and you adjust 16 moa right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">FFP scope, 5-20x50, Mil/Mil:</span></span>
-You mil an impact on 20x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 10x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 5x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">FFP scope, 5-20, MOA/MOA:</span></span>
-You measure an impact on 20x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 10x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 5x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
Get it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies. Basically, there's no real advantage to a mil/mil over a moa/moa with a second focal plane scope. A second focal plane scope is probably better with a moa/moa (depending on use).
I take that back, because an moa/moa scope would also be calibrated at a specific magnification. So for a rifle/scope intended for multi-purpose use, hunting and long range (700-1000 yards using max magnification) a mil/mil scope has the same benefits of a first focal plane scope. Thanks again </div></div>
What?
Okay check it out...advantage of FFP is that the reticle will hold it's true value at any power level. SFP only holds it's true value and one specific power level. This is true no matter what kind of reticle or adjustment you have.
If you have a SFP scope that you <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">NEVER</span></span> take off of the specific power setting for which the reticle is true, there would be no advantage to having a FFP scope... in this ONE, SINGLE, NARROW situation.
However, if you EVER take the scope off of the specific power level for which the reticle is true, there is an advantage to a FFP scope, as with the FFP, your values per the reticle will always be the true values, not diminished or increased.
Let me make this clear once again:
SFP- reticle holds true values on only ONE SPECIFIC POWER
FFP- Reticle holds true values on the entire range of power
Adjustments: Will hold true value no matter what plane (SFP OR FFP) your reticle is on.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-size: 14pt">So to break this down further:</span></span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">SFP scope, 5-20x50, Mil/Mil:</span></span>
-You mil an impact on 20x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 10x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 2 mil and you adjust 2 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 5x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 4 mil and you adjust 4 mil right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">SFP scope, 5-20, MOA/MOA:</span></span>
-You measure an impact on 20x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 10x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 8 moa and you adjust 8 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 5x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 16 moa and you adjust 16 moa right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">FFP scope, 5-20x50, Mil/Mil:</span></span>
-You mil an impact on 20x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 10x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
-You mil an impact on 5x as 1 mil left of POA. This is actually 1 mil and you adjust 1 mil right on your turret.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">FFP scope, 5-20, MOA/MOA:</span></span>
-You measure an impact on 20x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 10x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
-You measure an impact on 5x as 4 moa left of POA. This is actually 4 moa and you adjust 4 moa right on your turret.
Get it?
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster. </div></div>
Continuing with our idea that we are spotting our impacts with our own scope. No matter FFP or SFP, no matter the power. You take your shot. Line up your cross hairs on the POA, measure out per your reticle as it sits, 1mil left, .5mil down... You adjust your POA to be 1 mil right, .5 mil high.
You can substitute MOA, it doesn't matter. SO LONG as you are spotting your own impacts.
Here is where it gets more tricky. Someone else is spotting and tells you to hold 1 mil right and .5mil high- you must either:
A) Have a FFP reticle on any power setting
B) Have a SFP Reticle on the power setting for which the reticle values are true
C) Have a SFP reticle that you know is accurate at 20x, but you are on 10X. Thus you cut the calls in half, giving you .5mil right and .25mil high.
Clear as mud?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster. </div></div>
Continuing with our idea that we are spotting our impacts with our own scope. No matter FFP or SFP, no matter the power. You take your shot. Line up your cross hairs on the POA, measure out per your reticle as it sits, 1mil left, .5mil down... You adjust your POA to be 1 mil right, .5 mil high.
You can substitute MOA, it doesn't matter. SO LONG as you are spotting your own impacts.
Here is where it gets more tricky. Someone else is spotting and tells you to hold 1 mil right and .5mil high- you must either:
A) Have a FFP reticle on any power setting
B) Have a SFP Reticle on the power setting for which the reticle values are true
C) Have a SFP reticle that you know is accurate at 20x, but you are on 10X. Thus you cut the calls in half, giving you .5mil right and .25mil high.
Clear as mud?
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
That is basically what I was saying about hold over. I rarely have a spotter.
That is basically what I was saying about hold over. I rarely have a spotter.
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster. </div></div>
Yes you can reticle hold whether the scope is FFP or SFP.
The values only hold true if you decide to dial E or W. In this case a FFP scope will have its true value regardless of power setting and a SFP scope will need to be on its calibrated power setting.
A FFP scope sort of simplifies things because of the simple fact that it's value is true regardless of power setting. No powering up to max power to range something if you don't want to. No wondering if "I am truly dialed to half its power", which as was illustrated above would be half the adjustment value but what if the scope has no detent at half power? How can you be sure you are at exactly half its power? You cant.
With a FFP scope, what you see is what you get. No guessing. You see the target and mil it, acquire range to target, dial (or reticle hold), send a shot, spot the shot splash say a mil right, and you can either hold POA on the reticle or dial it thats up to you. I personally hold windage if the elevation is good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I am using, say, a hash mark style reticle (MOA or mil and SFP or FFP) and the shot strike is at something, for example, like one hash left/right shouldn't I be able to adjust my POI for the next shot by moving that hash over to my original POA?
I hope I'm making sense here. It appears one would not necessarily need to adjust the turret setting and that the hold over method would be faster. </div></div>
Yes you can reticle hold whether the scope is FFP or SFP.
The values only hold true if you decide to dial E or W. In this case a FFP scope will have its true value regardless of power setting and a SFP scope will need to be on its calibrated power setting.
A FFP scope sort of simplifies things because of the simple fact that it's value is true regardless of power setting. No powering up to max power to range something if you don't want to. No wondering if "I am truly dialed to half its power", which as was illustrated above would be half the adjustment value but what if the scope has no detent at half power? How can you be sure you are at exactly half its power? You cant.
With a FFP scope, what you see is what you get. No guessing. You see the target and mil it, acquire range to target, dial (or reticle hold), send a shot, spot the shot splash say a mil right, and you can either hold POA on the reticle or dial it thats up to you. I personally hold windage if the elevation is good.
Re: ? regarding mil/mil and second focal plane
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is basically what I was saying about hold over. I rarely have a spotter. </div></div>
Yeah I was just trying to elaborate for the less understanding in the crowd!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is basically what I was saying about hold over. I rarely have a spotter. </div></div>
Yeah I was just trying to elaborate for the less understanding in the crowd!
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