Loose primers

[KeeblerArmy]

What are the potential dangers and/or problems with loose primers in brass?

I have a bunch of Federal brass which I understand has a habit of developing loose primer pockets, and I have felt a couple that seated a little too easy. What issues could I experience?

Thanks

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Loose primers

Federal Brass is VERY soft.
This is one of the reasons your primer pockets are loose.

If you are running a gas gun, pull the bullets and recycle the components.
The action has the potential to dislodge a primer.
This could result in an inability to fire due to it getting under the trigger, it could lock up the gun by lodging in the bolt cam keyway, or get jammed in somewhere else that is extremely inconvenient.

If you are using it with a bolt gun, I would put some primer sealant on the primed cases and roll on.
I certainly wouldn't load that brass again though.

 

[C23]

Re: Loose primers

Lapua brass is worth every penny.

Many loadings,strong,consistent and primer pockets stay tight.

It's a safety issue too.

Best Regards

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

Could you expand on the safety issues please? That is why I started the thread.

Bottom line I am going to continue shooting the federal brass because I got a bunch for free. Yes I know it isn't top shelf but the price can't be beat.

Maybe I should have worded it this way, WHY are loose primer pockets a problem?

We've covered primers falling out and buggering up gas guns. What else can go wrong?

 

[1lnbrdg]

Re: Loose primers

With loose primers, you are going to have escaping gasses. If you shoot these, wear your glasses.

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

Are there any go/no go dimensions for a primer pocket that can be measured with calipers without having to waste a primer to see how it feels?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

Did you load these cartridges yourself? If so, I'm not going to blame Federal brass until we find out if you are using a hot load. What can happen? Worst case, hot gasses blow back in your face which is not a very good reason/result for using cheap brass. Other things can happen but I am personally unfamiliar with any of it. My policy is, at the first sign of excessive pressure, I quit shooting that load. BB

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

.308 with varget at 43 and change grains. The book max is 45gr so shouldn't be a hot load at all.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Loose primers

You will have inconsistency in your accuracy. I do not believe there is a true safety issue but can cause malfunctions in semi-autos by lodging in the trigger group or locking lugs of an ar.

If you feel the primer seat too easily bang the brass on the work bench a couple of times. If the primers stays put you should be good. Those are the rules i live by.

 

[judgedelta]

Re: Loose primers

Keebler:
Some primers have a slightly larger diameter than others. Winchester is small,for instance. I think CCI is larger. There are threads on here discussing and comparing primers. Good luck and be safe...

 

[bcrich]

Re: Loose primers

If I come across a primer that seats too easy using winchester primers (308) I deprime it and put in a tula primer and that usually fits nice and snug as they are a cunt hair wider but toss the case after firing. I have heard that escaping gases can also cut into the face of the bolt so it's not a good thing!

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

Tickle, thanks for that tip. I'll add that when they don't feel quite right.

bcrich, how do you go about depriming a live primer? Is it safe to use a decapping pin for that or is there some other way? Sorry for my ignorance here.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Loose primers

I just use the decapper. What is the worst that could happen if you are wearing eye pro and the powder measure is covered?

 

[gau17]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SGT Ticklefight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the worst that could happen? </div></div>

I hate those words. LOL

 

[red hawk]

Re: Loose primers

+1 for JUDGEDELTA...I found the same thing,was using winchester primers and switched to CCI, problem solved.

 

[Old Salt]

Re: Loose primers

Been shooting High Power Rifle for about 30 years and reload my ammo, always used Federal match primers for large and small rounds (308 & 223) and never had one failure. Can't say anything about the Federal brass but I don't think I would blame anything on the primers. My choice is Winchester brass or Lake City, if you can afford it then Lapua.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: Loose primers

A common technique to check brass is to seat used primers. If they are loose, discard the brass. Lots of bad things can happen if the primer backs out under pressure. Only you can decide if the load is safe enough to shoot. I don't see decapping live primers to recover the three or four cents one is worth. The primer is the single most dangerous part of the reloading process. I had one go off in the press. Didn't like the experience. Good luck!

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Old Salt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been shooting High Power Rifle for about 30 years and reload my ammo, always used Federal match primers for large and small rounds (308 & 223) and never had one failure. Can't say anything about the Federal brass but I don't think I would blame anything on the primers. My choice is Winchester brass or Lake City, if you can afford it then Lapua. </div></div>

Had two federal match primers flat out fail to fire during my last session. Granted it was snowing and everything was getting wet but that surprised the heck out of me.

I think people keep missing the part where i'm sitting on something like 300-500 free federal empty cases. I know they aren't the best but they are functional

 

[bcrich]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeeblerArmy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tickle, thanks for that tip. I'll add that when they don't feel quite right.

bcrich, how do you go about depriming a live primer? Is it safe to use a decapping pin for that or is there some other way?
</div></div>
KeeblerArmy, you can get a universal decapper die that just deprimes and can be used on all cases. When decapping a live primer just go really slow and it will not be a problem but for added safety you can wear eye and ear protection just incase. If the primer felt too easy while seating, it will just fall out with the touch of the decapping pin.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loose primers

I learned the hard way how 'loose' is 'TOO DAMN LOOSE TO USE'
Result..
Harder than normal recoil,
Bad smelly smoke leaking out the action.
Firing pin stuck inside the bolt,
Hard extraction,
Slight ring burnt onto bolt face.
LESSON LEARNED!!!

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

I don't mind saving a buck, here and there but I draw the line on any brass with even slightly enlarged primer pockets. I don't even think about it, just toss 'em. 500 is a little different matter, I guess and I might be tempted to try a different brand of primer, if the situation isn't too radical; like it just seats a little too easy? But, there is a risk, minor or whatever, the degree is what cannot be determined by the printed word.

With 500 of these little problems, over the long haul, it may not be worth it? After all, it's Federal brass, and you know what they keep telling us? I know what I'd do. BB

 

[jawjatek]

Re: Loose primers

I've loaded thousands of rounds (223) for highpower service rifle comp. Just about everybody (except service teams) reloads due to cost, and most shy away from Fed brass for this reason, as others have noted. I've seen many a competitor get an alibi, and a call from center line "armorer to firing point xxx" at Camp Perry because Gold match blew a primer which lodged under the trigger or in the lugs. I know of one match at Parris Island where competitors could not bring ammo and were issued FGM by the match host, only to have the match called off during sitting rapid because of primers blowing out. Granted that may have been a hot batch that slipped out. When I'm loading on my Dillon I can feel a Federal case when one sneaks in - the primer goes in REAL EASY, and that case goes straight into the scrap can.

Also I've seen where a firing pin gets eroded from the hot gas escaping from a loose primer. Under a microscope it has chips and pits, like the moon. That firing pin caused me 3-4 pierced rounds (and resultant gas-eye) at 600 prone. Once this happens you have to toss it.

Hot loads make the pocket go loose faster, as you might expect. I never pick up USAMU brass! I 've seen them blow primers on a rare occasion, and be whacking the lower on the mat to dislodge it - and their primers are staked. LOL

Just my humble experience. Me no likey Federal brass, no.

Edit my friend Ray (high master, P100, owner of Ray-Vin shooting products) shot so much Fed brass, he took a dremel and cut a huge opening around the trigger in his lower so the loose primers would fall out. He called it his "primer ejection port". I kid you not. LOL

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jawjatek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've loaded thousands of rounds (223) for highpower service rifle comp. Just about everybody (except service teams) reloads due to cost, and most shy away from Fed brass for this reason, as others have noted. I've seen many a competitor get an alibi, and a call from center line "armorer to firing point xxx" at Camp Perry because Gold match blew a primer which lodged under the trigger or in the lugs. I know of one match at Parris Island where competitors could not bring ammo and were issued FGM by the match host, only to have the match called off during sitting rapid because of primers blowing out. Granted that may have been a hot batch that slipped out. When I'm loading on my Dillon I can feel a Federal case when one sneaks in - the primer goes in REAL EASY, and that case goes straight into the scrap can.

Also I've seen where a firing pin gets eroded from the hot gas escaping from a loose primer. Under a microscope it has chips and pits, like the moon. That firing pin caused me 3-4 pierced rounds (and resultant gas-eye) at 600 prone. Once this happens you have to toss it.

Hot loads make the pocket go loose faster, as you might expect. I never pick up USAMU brass! I 've seen them blow primers on a rare occasion, and be whacking the lower on the mat to dislodge it - and their primers are staked. LOL

Just my humble experience. Me no likey Federal brass, no.

Edit my friend Ray (high master, P100, owner of Ray-Vin shooting products) shot so much Fed brass, he took a dremel and cut a huge opening around the trigger in his lower so the loose primers would fall out. He called it his "primer ejection port". I kid you not. LOL </div></div>

Excellent first post

Welcome to the hide

 

[former naval person]

Re: Loose primers

gfunkUK...that looks a lot more like excess pressure rather than a slightly loose primer pocket. The ejector mark isn't usual on a leaky primer.

 

[Xcount]

Re: Loose primers

There is a chance that Wolf LR primers will fit snug. They are just a little bigger in outer diameter than other primers. You should be able to use all the brass once but after that I would scrap it because of all the downsides listed.

use moderate loads and Wolf's to get your "free" brass use.

btw, it was free for a reason....

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

Apparently, I'm not only lucky but clairvoyant since I never use Federal brass? But it really begs the question according to the above information provided by our first time poster. If this is the case, (situation) and "everybody" knows it, then are we not talking about a defective product here? I have a hard time with Federal continuing to produce cartridge cases that won't hold a primer fired in a gas gun. WTF?
BB

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gfunkUK...that looks a lot more like excess pressure rather than a slightly loose primer pocket. The ejector mark isn't usual on a leaky primer.</div></div>

If I recall correctly, (it happened couple years ago) I was half way thru finding pressure limit.. previous charge weights had No pressure signs and I was still under book max.
It was old multi fired brass and I knew some of the pockets were very loose.. But was ignorant as too 'how loose' was danger loose.
Right out of nowhere that primer blew and also gave the bad ejector mark.
Tossed the brass after that and never had any more problems, loose pockets now go into the scrap bucket!

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Apparently, I'm not only lucky but clairvoyant since I never use Federal brass? But it really begs the question according to the above information provided by our first time poster. If this is the case, (situation) and "everybody" knows it, then are we not talking about a defective product here? I have a hard time with Federal continuing to produce cartridge cases that won't hold a primer fired in a gas gun. WTF?
BB</div></div>
Their brass is intended to be used one time in their loaded ammo.
It is not warrantied for use in hand loads.
Loaded FGMM is .223 Rem not 5.56 NATO spec.
Normally there are not issues with factory loaded ammo blowing primers.
The match that jawjatek spoke of was likely either a bad lot or a very hot day.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Loose primers

I don't believe a loose primer pocket has anything to do with blown, pierced, or smoked primers.

The slight press-fit of a primer in its pocket is NOT captivating the primer during firing, nor is it sealing the cartridge. Rather, the 50k+ psi of pressure blows the cup outward, sealing it against the walls of the pocket - in the same manner the caseneck blows out against the chamber, sealing off the barrel.

Diametral primer pocket fit needs to achieve ONE purpose - hold the primer in place from the time the primer is inserted into the case, to the time the cartridge is fully in battery. Once in battery, the fit has done its job. Chamber pressure and the bolt face will take it from there.

Also - NO WAY is a loose primer pocket to blame for heavy duty brass flow into the ejector hole of the bolt face.

 

[KeeblerArmy]

Re: Loose primers

This thread is getting interesting. There is a lot of contradicting information here. It sounds like the processes that happen at that end of the case during firing are not well understood.

Any industry experts that can weigh in on this?

ETA Turbo54's comments make a lot of sense to me from a physics standpoint, but I'm also no physics expert by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

Yes, I can find no fault with what turbo says, above.

Except perhaps the very last sentence? If we assume the condition that caused loose primer pockets and that condition continued in subsequent reloadings and firings, I would not be surprised in resultant gas and brass flow, bolt face and other undesireable results. BB

 

[targaflorio]

Re: Loose primers

What happens when the firing pin pushes a loose primer forward?

 

[RotARy15]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What happens when the firing pin pushes a loose primer forward? </div></div>

Either 2 things.

The primer goes boom like normal, or the primer does not go boom.

 

[northern50]

Re: Loose primers

Safety issue? I call Bull Shiz on that. My .223 Ackley would have loose primers after 2 firings... They are somewhere north of ten firings, I can seat primers with my thumb. No issues. The bolt will hold everything in place, primers seal up under pressure.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

That's funny. I have a 223Ackley that doesn't have loose primer pockets. What am I doing wrong? BB

PS if it isn't a safety issue, maybe it's an intelligence test?

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Loose primers

It all depends on how hot you are loading you rounds. If you are around 45k PSI with a 5.56 your brass may last you 50 firings. If you are above the load manuals trying to shoot 3 million yards you might not make it 5 firings.

"Either 2 things.

The primer goes boom like normal, or the primer does not go boom."

LOL - I think the question was referring to slam-fires in a semi-auto which would be a real concern with a loose primer pocket.

I prime on the press because it seems to give me a better feel for seating. If the primer seems to seat too easily, I tap the brass against my workbench - if it stays seated I use it. I haven't been reloading for that long but I have not had a problem yet while approaching 500 rounds on my press which includes the notorious slam-firing M1 Garand.

P.S. I don't crimp any rifle rounds including my Garand and have had zero issues.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Loose primers

I am probably pushing the envelope but my 5.56 LC brass has tight primer pockets even after swaging. Sometimes my primers will distort into an elliptical shape to seat. Is this a problem? I guess I would like it tighter than loose.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I learned the hard way how 'loose' is 'TOO DAMN LOOSE TO USE'
Result..
Harder than normal recoil,
Bad smelly smoke leaking out the action.
Firing pin stuck inside the bolt,
Hard extraction,
Slight ring burnt onto bolt face.
LESSON LEARNED!!!

</div></div>

You have multiple pressure signs here. This round was too hot! If it was just a loose primer you wouldn't have the mountain where the primer tried to enter the firing pin channel or the burr left by your extractor.

If anything, the loose primer would have made the other symptoms less likely due to a pressure leak.

 

[northern50]

Re: Loose primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's funny. I have a 223Ackley that doesn't have loose primer pockets. What am I doing wrong? BB

PS if it isn't a safety issue, maybe it's an intelligence test? </div></div>


Winchester brass and 75 gr A-max's loaded hot as a motherfucker. Why? Because it worked. Intelligence test? Sure was, I deemed it safe, and never had any issues.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Loose primers

There are a lot of new handloaders that cherry pick advice on SH. Do you really want them thinking that hot loads and loose primer pockets are nothing to worry about? You are just the cocky type that can't be told anything then sue somebody because their gun blew up. Hot as a motherfucker? Really? BB

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Loose primers

I'm certainly not disagreeing with the apparent pressure signs, but as for the cause of them i assumed they had something to do with issues caused by the loose primer.
The only reason I say that is, this happened whilst stepping up in .3grn jumps to find a pressure limit on a load I was beginning to work on,
All previous shots showed absolutely no visible pressure signs,
(the primer crater is completely normal on my Remmy action, the well known sloppy firing pin hole)
And I was still under book max.
This primer incident happened completely out of the blue.

Furthermore, at a later date I re-shot the test with new brass and settled on a load about .5grn higher than when this happened.. I ran it for a couple hundred rounds with no problems whatsoever, until I got bored and moved onto another bullet combo.

Therefore I attributed the accident to known loose (very) pockets on old brass..
I'm completely open to theories on HOW it caused the ejector flow etc etc.. But I don't feel it was due to a 'hot load' in the traditional sense of the term.
i.e. too much powder/bullet seated too deep/or jammed etc causing a spike.
UNLESS somehow I fucked up that particular round somehow.. But during test and development I'm pretty anal to measure each and every round very carefully.

So I guess it begs the question is there any other way it could have happened OTHER than a hot load knowing the primer was slack as a witches tit???