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Re: Analyze This

The comments by LL and CoryT are spot on, what more can I say... what a waste of time (again) trying to save something useful from SS posts. I won't repeat the mistake.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have fooled around with a certain little 308 rifle that has been a sub-half consistently for a vary long time. At 100 yds where external influence is minimal it is very hard to screw up a group when firing off a bipod and a rear bag. I have deliberately screwed up my position in various ways and really didn't see big differences in group size. I have shot it right handed, left handed, tip of finger, first joint, wraparound grip, light three finger w/thumb on top, pinched the bag, solid rear bag etc.

The results are pretty much the same, 1/4 to 1/2 min groups. This is providing the position allows me to get still and watch the reticle until it bucks then follow through.

What is really interesting is how I have witnessed a few shooters trying to shoot consistent groups with their own rifle and getting poor groups or in some cases nice groups with occasional fliers. Folks will gather around these individuals like vultures offering advice and altering positions. Typically the more the shooter is tutored the worse the results. My cure on numerous occasions has been to set the little 308 down beside the afflicted shooter with these instructions, roll over here and try this one. Forget what everybody has told you, get comfortable, sqeeeeeze, watch the crosshairs until it bucks. Amazing, all bad habits are suddenly gone, shooter no longer is required to curl the little toe on his left foot.

A system that is not capable of holding the desired accuracy is bread and butter for folks being paid for instruction.

Now before you folks explode, be reminded that this post refers to shooters using a bi-pod w/rear bag. Shooting unsupported is a totally different animal. </div></div>

I just went through this myself. Very true, Augustus.

I quit trying to "get better" and started shooting well under 1/2 MOA instantly.
 
Re: Analyze This

At least from my perspective and from my understanding of how Cory works, neither of us was suggesting a human error solution, but in fact talking about the accuracy inherent to the "system" which admittedly includes the shooters.

But first one needs to know the accuracy potential of the combination out to distance.

This is part of my attempt to get people to step away from things like a 3 shot group which is meaningless in my opinion as I have stated over and over to no avail. A greater sampling is required to firm up not only the actual group center, but to establish the real accuracy of the combination. Managing the occasional 1/2" group out of 5 tries doesn't make you a 1/2 minute shooter, or at least the rifle. Which is also why they should be testing system accuracy out to distance.

Still I have seen shooters screw up a noticeable amount with a solid performer, not necessarily under perfect conditions but under time. Blow shots can exceed the accuracy potential that has been well established. Another reason endlessly shooting groups is a lesson in futility.
 
Re: Analyze This

I agree. If we are talking about a sample size from a statistical perspective, we should be shooting a group of ~100... Assuming a 95% confidence level and a total population of shots of 100,000... Then we could be talking about the true statistical capability of the total system...shooter, gun, ammo, etc
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least from my perspective and from my understanding of how Cory works, neither of us was suggesting a human error solution, but in fact talking about the accuracy inherent to the "system" which admittedly includes the shooters.

But first one needs to know the accuracy potential of the combination out to distance.

This is part of my attempt to get people to step away from things like a 3 shot group which is meaningless in my opinion as I have stated over and over to no avail. A greater sampling is required to firm up not only the actual group center, but to establish the real accuracy of the combination. Managing the occasional 1/2" group out of 5 tries doesn't make you a 1/2 minute shooter, or at least the rifle. Which is also why they should be testing system accuracy out to distance.

Still I have seen shooters screw up a noticeable amount with a solid performer, not necessarily under perfect conditions but under time. Blow shots can exceed the accuracy potential that has been well established. Another reason endlessly shooting groups is a lesson in futility. </div></div>

Some folks shoot groups endlessly because, it appears, they enjoy it.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some folks shoot groups endlessly because, it appears, they enjoy it.</div></div>Actually we are always shooting a group, whether we recognize it, and enjoy it, or not.
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Re: Analyze This

We may all shoot different venues or disiplans, but when it comes to pure Marksmanship Fundamentals we could all learn from Sterling Shooter
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We may all shoot different venues or disiplans, but when it comes to pure Marksmanship Fundamentals we could all learn from Sterling Shooter </div></div>Agreed: We can all learn from each other; the quality of the people here being one of the things I like about this site.
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Re: Analyze This

the shooter messed his shot and call was wishfull thinking, how's that for an analysis.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the shooter messed his shot and call was wishfull thinking, how's that for an analysis.</div></div>

I was thinking about this too. I see posts of groups here with called fliers. I wonder if any shots were actually called; but, suspect instead the shooter is attempting to lay blame for a bad shot on himself and off of the gun. Seems everyone wants to stake a claim on an accurate rifle. Thing is, most shots not going where aimed are indeed about the shooter so making reference to called fliers is somewhat redundant. It does however show that some shooters place emphasis on their equipment when everything about good shooting today is about the shooter.

In context to practicing/mastering the fundamentals, using score-able targets to understand progress, analysis is beneficial to efficient and effective development. Keeping a record of shots and conditions in a data book is useful. And, for work in progress, evaluation of the call/strike corollary can give recognition to the source/s of error, that's to say, the reason a shooter is not hitting exactly where aimed.

With proper follow-through, a shooter can quickly isolate the source/s of error using call/strike analysis to something inconsistent about the elements and factors of a steady position, poor trigger control, or not correctly countering for the things that effect external ballistics.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shooter calls his shot at 3 o'clock, but the bullet strike is right-in-there. From the call/strike corollary what are the possible shooter/target errors? </div></div>

I've figured it out! The shooter is you, and your arrogance has caused even your own bullets to not like you any more LOL
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, the only occasion where your argument would hold water would be those where the shooter had no knowledge of what the possible errors could be as produced by a specific corollary </div></div> I liked that part
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shooter calls his shot at 3 o'clock, but the bullet strike is right-in-there. From the call/strike corollary what are the possible shooter/target errors? </div></div>

I've figured it out! The shooter is you, and your arrogance has caused even your own bullets to not like you any more LOL</div></div>

So, tell me BattleAxe how do you go about trouble-shooting shots that don't go where aimed?
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, tell me BattleAxe how do you go about trouble-shooting shots that don't go where aimed? </div></div>

Depends on what I'm doing. Long range? Short Range? Auto? Bolt? Mostly I just use the force and chant to get my answer
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Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, tell me BattleAxe how do you go about trouble-shooting shots that don't go where aimed? </div></div>

Depends on what I'm doing. Long range? Short Range? Auto? Bolt? Mostly I just use the force and chant to get my answer
wink.gif
</div></div>

So, you don't think about what might be the cause of misplaced shots? How's that working out for ya? Seems to me not coming to recognize your source/s of error would thwart development; plus, it would make you prone to repeat mistakes. On the other hand, looking for inconsistency, and/or incorrect counters to trajectory/wind/weather effects would help you resolve issues so as not to repeat mistakes.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, you don't think about what might be the cause of misplaced shots? How's that working out for ya? </div></div>

That's not what I said. Buy hooked on phonics and a dictionary, re-read my post, then get back to me. Actually don't I'm busy.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, you don't think about what might be the cause of misplaced shots? How's that working out for ya? </div></div>

That's not what I said. Buy hooked on phonics and a dictionary, re-read my post, then get back to me. Actually don't I'm busy.</div></div>

Well, BattleAxe I'm not busy. Do you need someone to show you how to do it?
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Well, BattleAxe I'm not busy. Do you need someone to show you how to do it? </div></div>

No, you cannot hump my leg.
 
Re: Analyze This

Quite a thread we got here, I agree with most of the others on here that this was a question asked with the bare minimum of needed information given. Under very controlled circumstances including shooter and conditions then maybe a single answer can be given for that one shot being off but I would like to see more shots before forming an opinion on what to do to correct it.

First thing needed was abilities of the shooter, next could be proven accuracy of firearm being shot, then loads proven accurate at the distances needed. How about the distance that target was being shot at and weather conditions affecting bullet flight to the target at that moment.

There are so many variables that affect a shot it could fill pages and still not be sure what caused that one lone shot being slightly off from where it was supposed to go. I also base my calls and corrections on known ability of the shooter. A midlevel shooter that is wandering around the target but getting hits will get a called hit but not get too exact and have them make an adjustment on a non perfect shot. Keep holding where you did and do it again. One of my friends that can lay them on top of one another and is slightly off center I'll tell him exactly where they are and let him make the call as to a slight tweaking or not.

The range we shoot at our close target (234 yards) is across at least one valley, fields and rows or trees. The farther out the targets get the more valleys, fields and tree rows there are in between us. Some distances (900/1000 yards) have four valleys, a stream, fields and lots of woods. We also shoot above most of these so there isn't a reference as to what is going on in between us and the target. We shoot all 4 directions so the wind is always changing as it blows thru the hills/valleys and tree lines. There are no sighters so each of your 3 shot strings is all you get and they all count for points.

Video clip of our targets viewed from bench and out to target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwE70ihOYIk

There are days we have three or more wind directions between us and the target. It changes direction/speed so often and swirls that you can have 3 absolutely perfect shots and go from 1 1/2 mil right to 3/4 mil left and then back again in your 3 shot string. Other days it'll be constant and you can drill an 8" circle at 1000 yards 3 times in a row. The flag may be straight out at 900 to the right but you'll get your hits holding a mill to the right. It sure don't look right but it's what it takes to get the hit based on wind we can't see across those valleys.

All of this ranting probably isn't what you're hunting but based on the distance you're shooting and all the other factors everyone else has mentioned shows me that there are so many variables and given the question you asked there is no definite answer. I'm sure you earned your credentials being an excellent shooter but at least the places we shoot and the conditions it'd be impossible to satisfy you with an absolute answer.

If everything is perfect, weather, loads, gun, shooter and whatever else you need to make multiple shots then I can see you being able to isolate that missed call. I don't know where you are located and what types of facilities you shoot at but if you are in the Ohio area we'd gladly invite you to stop in at Rayners for a match/practice day and see if everything you're saying still holds true.

Topstrap
 
Re: Analyze This

I don't expect a new shooter to understand the source of error for called shots other than to recognize the arena of error, inconsistency or incorrect counter, the two causes for shot misplacement. For example, a shot called at 3 o'clock which strikes at 3 o'clock suggests counters were correctly applied but inconsistency is the likely cause of error. These errors will have something to do with trigger control or position. Although the shooter may not be able to isolate the error he can nevertheless be more conscious of trigger control and the factors of a steady position for his next shot.

The other methods of analysis, group evaluation and coach observation of shooter will also reveal a multitude of possible errors yet this does not mean the shooter should not attempt to isolate the error/s. When the error/s cannot be isolated the shooter can still apply corrective measures to the whole arena from which the error likely presented itself. For example, if it appears that an inconsistent position is creating variable recoil resistance, but does not reveal the culpret factor, the shooter can address all 5 factors of a steady position. Of course, when the new shooter can recall how the shot looked, as well as felt, he may actually sense the origin of error and address it.

At any rate, calling the shot and making a correction off the call may take a leap of faith, while doing nothing may also produce an unfavorable result. A shooter who is interested in reaching the highest levels of good shooting will think about the call and its corollary to the strike whether or not he takes any action. My original post was about getting folks who don't think beyond the accuracy of the rifle to see that good shooting is about the skill and discipline of the shooter. I should have titled the thread the value of calling shots rather than taking the approach I did.

BTW, shooters just getting into HP competition may come to the firing line with their zeroed rifle and begin shooting with shots going someplace other than where aimed. Some of these folks do not know about calling shots and just continue to shoot even though they may be producing a group which eventually indicates to them that they might want to adjust their sights. Thing is, by the time they realize it, it's too late for them to produce a good score. On the other hand, an experienced shooter who calls his shot right in there and sees a spotting disk out in the 8 ring at 12 o'clock might be thinking about making a sight adjustment especially if he was sure his perspective of aim on his last shot was consistent. This shooter is helping his work in progress. This shooter recognizes he does not want to loose points for something as silly as a misadjusted sight setting.
 
Re: Analyze This

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> conscious of trigger control </div></div>

That in my opinion of the whole "shot calling" detail. Many new or inexperenced shooters based their call on what they "think" they see when actually the shot is fired via improper trigger control. They really have no ideal where the barrel was pointed when the bullet left. They only know where if was before they started jerking on the trigger.

Col. Alexander Macnab addressed when he wrote for Gen Pershing a new marksmanship qualification course for the infantry school (the same program we now know as the Small Arms Firing School, conducted by the AMU for the CMP.

Without proper trigger control, all other fundamentals go out the window.

Calling the shot is learned while working on one's trigger contol, best learned through dry firing, better yet, dry firing in the Off Hand Position.

Thus...practicing all other steady hold factors, start your squeeze as the sight passed through the target, stopping as it leaves, then as the wobble continues, again adding more presure as you pass the target heading the other way. As the shot breakes (or hammer falls), you should be able to make the call and it will be on target.