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AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I love my AI's but also love my KMW. Buy what you like and it seems to always run better. If you settle you'll always find a problem. Failures happen but success is far more common with any of the rifles discussed here.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yes it is. Any take on updates ? Anyone know how a tikka stacks up? Other improvements made by others ?

Dave Lauck recommends making the 700 a single shot for reliability. He has seen a few fail in his own comps he runs. Any thoughts on that? Can it be run as fast as a mag fed repeater like he states?

Just wondering what the "Hive" thoughts are?

SC
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

This is a very good read expescially for a new guy just getting into the long range game.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Loner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a very good read expescially for a new guy just getting into the long range game. </div></div>Agreed: Very good Thread. Worth a second look in my opinion.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I wonder if there have been any more recent 'competitions' where the reliability of the various actions (Stiller, Surgeon, Sako, Remington, or AI) have been documented as to whether the various competitor's rifles stayed up or went down.

Great reading on the thread, IMO.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder if there have been any more recent 'competitions' where the reliability of the various actions (Stiller, Surgeon, Sako, Remington, or AI) have been documented as to whether the various competitor's rifles stayed up or went down.

Great reading on the thread, IMO.
</div></div>

I can tell you that at the K&M Competition in March my Remington went down for 2 stages... the water from the rain trashed it, both the action had issues and the trigger. After which I had to protect the action for the rain, just about completely to include leaving a paper towel in the action until the last minute.

I can tell you this, I was down two stages, and one shot was the difference between my 12th place finish and what could have been 8th to 5th place finish.

Due to the type of competition, I decided to take my lighter Remington over my AI, a mistake I won't make again. <span style="font-style: italic">(the real issue was my AI was set up to use a Suppressor and my Remington was a lighter profile with a brake, so not wanting the suppressor on this trip, i opted for the Remington in an AX Chassis.)</span>
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

WOW! Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't have thought that rain would've been such an issue for the Remington action. Kinda makes me think that the painfully steep price of an AI might be worth it after all. Is your AI an AE or an AW?
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Well, in my book, that certainly classifies you as an expert on the system, and you obviously speak from experience. Might have to re-look at them, then. Thanks. J.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

You will not like this , BUT of all the tac type rifles I have or have used , there are only 2 that I would want to use if I had TOO .

The 1st is of course the Obvoius , an AW of some type , the OTHER is a Parker Hale M85 , whats interesting is that both of these rifles have been used by the Brits , when the Brits did their sniper rifle trials , these two systems came out as the top of the heap .
They selected the PM ( the model before the AW ) , but due to limited size of new company AI , the PH M85 was pressed into imediate service aas well , until AI could supply enough rifles to cover demand .

Any way , as the old PH company folded up in the late 80s , getting a new M85 is not possible .

The M85 is a reinforced Mauser 98 type action , it has a longer barrel thread in ( tunion ) , better to support the heavier barrel , uses M14 mags , has a excellent special 2 stage trigger .

So in short for me , IF I have the choice its either a AW or M85 for me , end of short story .

RE : Sako TRGs , I have had issues with the 308 version , jamming , not feeding from the magazine , this is the 10rd single feed posn mag , I have not had the same issue with the 41/42 , these are signgle feed , single stack , find the 41/42 to be much smoother than the 21/22 series , but you did not want to know that as well .

Anyway here's a pic of my Parker Hale M85 rifle .

DSC00654.jpg


P.S. Whats interesting is both are British rifles , and both have longer than normal tunions & both use double feed / double stack 10rd magazines .

Later Chris
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

i've shot r700's in some pretty insane weather without fail, those being crane built r700's but they ran just fine. i have also shot many a gas gun in foul weather without issue so.. personally now having a AIAW and a few other diferent actions the AW is definately my new "hard use" weapon. i am severely impressed with it overall. It is not leaving my safe anytime soon.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

ChrisF.

I had a TRG-22, and I just thought the feeding issue (and also for me, an ejection issue) was just me. Glad to read that someone else also seemed to have this problem at times. For me, it didn't happen a lot, but often enough that I was always conscious to its possibility, thus always worried about it happening. That kinda took some of the joy of the rifle away.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Out of curiosity, how old were the TRG-22's and did this issue appear under specific conditions or was it arbitrarily random and impossible to even draw a hypothesis on?

Any rough figures on how often issues occurred(x times per 100, 500, 1000 rounds?) and was this factory ammo or handloads? I researched the forum for several months before hopping on a TRG-22 after reading all the good and bad. I've read about some individuals having weak ejection issues on the 22 series but didn't recall coming across a failure to feed properly.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why tempt fate... the AW is a proven combat rifle and if I fall off a cliff and break my bolt handle off I am fucked, where the AW is more likely to take a hit or 3 and survive. Not to mention I have taken the AI Armorers Course and know it intimately.

It's a purpose built system and not a hunting rifle disguised as a one.

There are very few purpose built tactical rifles, the Remington 700 in any configuration is just not one of them, regardless of my spec. I do shoot my Gladius more than my AW on any given day, but that doesn't mean it's better, it just means I shoot it lot. You're asking a reason why I do something everyday that I wouldn't do if the world was ending, well because everyday is easy, the world ending is not. When things get tough the tough use an AI. </div></div>

so true so true.
words of wisdom here guys.lol
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

even though i really dont like the AI triggers
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

SO far I have not had a failure to eject a round from the TRG-21/22 series , its been a failure to feed a loaded round into the chamber , and I feel its a magazine issue , ie the single feed posn 10rd mag is not the best for a reliable operation in my opinion , IF it was all Automatic weapons would use a single feed posn magazine , THEY donot , they use a double feed / double stack mag and have done for a long time , SMGs started evolving from single feed / double stack mags to double feed as early as pre WWII .

Also I donot beleive its a old vs new manufacture Sako , as all the little tweaks , done fromt he early 21 thru to the latest 22 , donot involve mods to the bolt shape/size or magazine , so thats not a factor in simple terms.

The mods to the system 21 to 22 , involving the feed mech , are 2x external buttons to add a gripping surface for mag removable , and strengthing the bolt handle to bolt body interface , so these have NO real change to the feed system .

I like the Sakos accuracy , and the fact at one time they where 1/2 the price of a AW , but I donot like the magazine design that much in the short action 21/22 .

The long action has a different mag , and capacity , and rocks in 338LM , very smooth and never had an issue with the 41/42 feeding cycling etc .

Later Chris

P.S. Just because you never saw it posted on the net , dosnt mean its not real or has not happened , It just means , no one has yet bothered to post , some people have very little or nothing to do with the internet or forums .
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I can tell you that at the K&M Competition in March my Remington went down for 2 stages... the water from the rain trashed it, both the action had issues and the trigger. After which I had to protect the action for the rain, just about completely to include leaving a paper towel in the action until the last minute.

I can tell you this, I was down two stages, and one shot was the difference between my 12th place finish and what could have been 8th to 5th place finish.

Due to the type of competition, I decided to take my lighter Remington over my AI, a mistake I won't make again. <span style="font-style: italic">(the real issue was my AI was set up to use a Suppressor and my Remington was a lighter profile with a brake, so not wanting the suppressor on this trip, i opted for the Remington in an AX Chassis.)</span> </div></div>

LL,

So what exactly went down on the rifle?

I am a little surprised to hear the action went down from rain as I have 30 years of hunting behind CM Remingtons in the wettest God forsaken rain forests on the planet. For instance where I hunt grizzly we get 8 feet of rain per year.
Basically coastal BC turns into a dripping wet shithole for 8 months of the year.

There is a big difference between a hunting rifle tolerance and that of a precision rifle, but I wonder if we go too far sometimes. Every failure I have had was with aftermarket triggers (Jewel) and freezing/sticking problems with aftermarket firing pins and cocking pieces.

Anyway just curious what failed and why.
If my gun wont feed fire or eject I want whatever it is fixed or the hell off my rifle.

If my ass were on the line or I lived in a sandy desert it would be AI...No question, but it is not and I do not, so I pretty much shoot Remington.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SO far I have not had a failure to eject a round from the TRG-21/22 series , its been a failure to feed a loaded round into the chamber , and I feel its a magazine issue , ie the single feed posn 10rd mag is not the best for a reliable operation in my opinion , IF it was all Automatic weapons would use a single feed posn magazine , THEY donot , they use a double feed / double stack mag and have done for a long time , SMGs started evolving from single feed / double stack mags to double feed as early as pre WWII .

Also I donot beleive its a old vs new manufacture Sako , as all the little tweaks , done fromt he early 21 thru to the latest 22 , donot involve mods to the bolt shape/size or magazine , so thats not a factor in simple terms.

The mods to the system 21 to 22 , involving the feed mech , are 2x external buttons to add a gripping surface for mag removable , and strengthing the bolt handle to bolt body interface , so these have NO real change to the feed system .

I like the Sakos accuracy , and the fact at one time they where 1/2 the price of a AW , but I donot like the magazine design that much in the short action 21/22 .

The long action has a different mag , and capacity , and rocks in 338LM , very smooth and never had an issue with the 41/42 feeding cycling etc .

Later Chris

P.S. Just because you never saw it posted on the net , dosnt mean its not real or has not happened , It just means , no one has yet bothered to post , some people have very little or nothing to do with the internet or forums . </div></div>

ChrisF, but of course. I wasn't dismissing anyone. I hope my post didn't seem facetious. Any information that can be put out there is a good thing, even if the information isn't flattering the platform. Thanks for posting your experience.

Less than 1% of the 100 million gun owners in the US participate in online gun forums (so cumulatively less than 1 million active participants in all forums combined), and for relatively small manufacturers like AI or Sako, you're generally not going to get a lot of problems to begin with on a firearm of this caliber, so a small number of problems from small gun companies in which 1% of owners might participate on an online forum results in a very small statistical sample which is why I inquired to get more information. I can't even find AI or Sako information on most other gun forums.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor


No problem , I did not take it that way .

In a word , some would say I am normally rather BLUNT .

Later Chris
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Hey Frank, with the comparison between the AI and the Badger action being obvious, can you comment on how the Badger seem to hold up in competition?

I know the first gen seemed to have a few problems but was just curious your opinion on the more recent release.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of curiosity, how old were the TRG-22's and did this issue appear under specific conditions or was it arbitrarily random and impossible to even draw a hypothesis on?

Any rough figures on how often issues occurred(x times per 100, 500, 1000 rounds?) and was this factory ammo or handloads? I researched the forum for several months before hopping on a TRG-22 after reading all the good and bad. I've read about some individuals having weak ejection issues on the 22 series but didn't recall coming across a failure to feed properly. </div></div>

MY TRG-22 was about 8 years old. I'd bought it from a friend who was the original owner. He was changing focus on his shooting, so he made me a GREAT deal. My issues all occured with the 10-round magazine. Until I read an earlier post about the TRG in this thread, I didn't realize there were any issues with the 10-round mags on the TRG-22s. My failure to eject could be more accurately described as: when the bolt is pulled to the rear, and it reaches the point where the brass should fly out of the receiver, it would occasionally "hit" on something, and stay in the receiver. It didn't matter if the bolt was pulled hard to the rear (smoothly), or slowly, it would leave the brass in the chamber. It would happen to about any shooter, not just me. But, it would only happen maybe 2-3 times per 100 rounds if I had to average it. Enough that I was always having to be conscious of it maybe occurring.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

If you shoot a lot in the winter, as we do here, and the snow starts blowing into your action and on the bolt, you will appreciate an AI bolt.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I shoot competitively about twice a month and practice weekly. Since May of 2010 when I got an AW I have not had a single issue with the function of the rifle--zero, nada, zilch. This is in at least 20 matches. During this time I have seen lots of issues with other guns: DTAs, 700s, GAP, Tubb, gas guns, TRGs, etc. If the shoulders are a little long on one of my reloads, push the bolt hard, if there is sand in the action fro the wind, push harder, got a rock in there, push harder. My AW action just keeps going. i also can't recollect a single incident with anyone else's AW either.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

that is the reason i added a AW to my safe and the reason it isn't leaving anytime soon and it sits right next to a GAP, r700, DTA, and a mauser
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

It might just be me but the only slight gripe i have with my AI is it shows signs of high pressure when i load towards the upper end of max loads. Not sure why that might be the case but i recall someone else on here noticing something similar.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It might just be me but the only slight gripe i have with my AI is it shows signs of high pressure when i load towards the upper end of max loads. Not sure why that might be the case but i recall someone else on here noticing something similar. </div></div>

If thats with the factory barrel its easily solved.......
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeah, I get a sticky bolt on my AWSM 338LM towards the upper end of charges (loading .004 off the lands - mag. friendly less so obviously). I'm running the factory 1-10" barrel too, but I have a fresh Krieger sitting here waiting for the AI barrel to get shot out...

Fired cases don't re-chamber well at all, but run through the FL die to bump the shoulder back .003-.004 resolves the issue. Too bad I have to do this after every firing : (

My EDM Windrunner in 338LM didn't require this at all (maybe a bump every 3 or 4 firings). I figure either AI either has a very tolerant chamber (since it is designed to chamber and fire pretty much anything you can throw at it) or it's either extremely tight and crush-fitting on every firing. Hard to tell from the brass really as .001 to .002 on the shoulder can mean the bolt not going into battery. The body always stays consistent though.

I haven't worried about it really. I get impressive groups from it with FL sizing and my bushing neck die (Redding Competition), but the extra FL step does get slightly annoying : )
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I have the same experience with my AI AW .308 with hot loads. My gun smith says the action is on par with many of the custom action he builds for mainly Benchrest competitors, so I think its not a bad thing at all..
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Interesting. I'm talked to a few people around that get the exact same thing with their AW's (308, 300WM and 338LM). They just FL every trip also and bump back the same as I do - about .002 - .004. I only get about 6-7 firings out of my Lapua brass before I start to develop serious signs that the brass is on it's last leg (split cases mainly, about an inch up from the base).

Basically I have toned my load down to 87g of H1000 for 300g projectiles that are seated .004" off and 91g of H1000 for 250g projectiles. Those loads produce a stable MV and hold the best groups without experiencing stiff bolt lift.

Sorry about turning this thread into a reloading topic!
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

FWIW, in my old AWP barrel (AI factory UK), I can neck size only. In my other barrels, including aftermarket (GAP), I usually use a FL die but use the Redding shell holders to increase headspace (usually +0.004 or 6)
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Interesting. That GAP barrel must be a bit tighter than the factory AI barrel (logically true). What's the highest charge that you have been able to achieve without seeing pressure signs or getting a sticky bolt on your AW Zak? Are you single feeding or just loading to magazine length?
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Ahh, different caliber. Ok, my bad... sorry about that.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Yeah, LL's creds on rifle failures are good. You really can't judge these systems adequately until you compete with them. Even going to a class is a better test then concluding based upon leisure shooting or hunting.

I've shot the 100K+ round AI rifle that LL discussed earlier. It was a killing machine. Butta smooth and insanely accurate.
I have no quibble with those who say AI are the most reliable actions.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, in my book, that certainly classifies you as an expert on the system, and you obviously speak from experience. Might have to re-look at them, then. Thanks. J.
</div></div>
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

How does the Badger M2008 action compare? Is it as reliable as the AI?
I got to "play" with an M2008 action once and at the time it seemed to be "sticky" and not as smooth as a 700 type. It's been a long time since I've gotten my hands on an AI, but I remembered that I really liked it.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

Wow, great thread. I have been back and forth on a new rifle... AI sound right for me.
 
Re: AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails mor

I really appreciate your useful field experience! I am the deadly fans of Mauser 98.
 
Just out of curiosity - have you seen any other issues with FN besides that safety failure?
 
Thanks guys
After reading the 5 pages, if I had to chose two rifles if/when SITF, it would be an AK and an AIAW, which were already my choices before I started reading.
Do I have a rifle that never failed me? Yes, it went through heavy rain and sand storms and it did check just fine but to be fair, it did never go through what my rifles were going through in the Army; it is a Sako TRG 22 .308. Would I compare it to a AIAW to take it down range? No, the AI will handle much more, especially the stock but the TRG is still a good, accurate and reliable rifle.
Great reading Lowlight's posts from the beginning, can't beat experience.
Good shooting.
Ombre noire
 
Onemoretime said:
So..... anyway...

I have a question. From what I'm reading, the two biggest problems with the R700 is the bolt handle breaking off and the user over tweaking the trigger, right?

Is there anyone out there that makes a "bullet proof" unbreakable bolt assembly?

I know that you can buy aftermarket bolt assemblies but are there any that are tougher then the rest?

This is for those of us that can't afford an AI yet...
Click to expand...


1 Piece Bolts : Pacific Tool & Gauge, Inc. - Store Home, Redefining Quality in Manufacturing
 
Randoman5 said:
Where do DTA and Savage fall in terms of reliability?
Click to expand...


savages "can" have a few issues... the big ones are the ejector spring gets week, and will drop the brass in the gun...
accu triggers if light, and you slam the bolt hard will drop on the trigger safety, and u will need to recock the gun, if the trigger is not a accutrigger, you CAN get a "slam fire"... i've done it with mine, and have seen other do it as well...

i just sold my custom savage, and built a rem-age 700 to match it.. i still own a savage 223
 
I have an AIAW and it has a tendency to pierce primers when you move to the 6.5mm cartridges. I'm shooting a .260 remington. In its .308 configuration it was bomb proof.
 
AI are without question wonderful rifles, i'll be buying one of the new ones...the ones i've shot are owned by others or the Army....i like the comments that summarise this as they are each built for a prupose, the engineering compromise, of tolerances vs dependability in crap conditions....b/w a well sorted stock 700PSS and and AI, i'd take the rifle that i shot the best with, some rifles just fit some people better, that would determine it for me because the difference in reliability is so miniscule in my expereince.... we shoot in some miserable condidions (granted never in snow, lots of dust and mud)....down here, have never had a failure or stoppage if i was to be in the field shooting mainly prone, i'd take my 700P with the HS stock....i'd pick a pistol grip AI if i needed a rifle to patrol with, and engage tgts from differing positions....i just my view..probably horses for courses more important that tiny reliability diffs
 
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