Gunsmithing New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

[Mgordon]

Shooters,

SAC is getting ready to move into a new building and out of our current 400 square feet shop and into a 1300, 3 room shop. The problem is the only power source this building has is electricity and propane.

I was thinking of getting a 1.5 Ton cooling and 24,000 BTU heating Mini Split unit to install to solve the heating and cooling issues. What are your thoughts and what do you use in your building?

Since I will only be heating/cooling around 1000 sq ft of the new area, I figured a unit like this would be most efficient. I am not a heating/cooling guy by any means, so please shoot me in the right direction.

Any help is appreciated.

Mark

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

Mark,

I would check with your local power or propane company for any rebates or special power rates that they can offer you for certain products.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

Old adage for cooling was 400sq ft per ton for commercial AC and 600sq ft per ton for residential. Least that is how I always sized them in the ole days. Of course how well or how bad your building is insulated makes some difference, along with how many windows/doors and types. Heat loss/heat gain from machines running etc.

My bet would be 2 ton of air and at least 70K BTU for heating. But then I haven't been in the business for 10+yrs. Your 1.5 ton A/C might be adequate but I think you are considerably short on heat?

 

[colchester]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

If you decide on propane I would recommend purchase of your own tank. This will give yo flexibility to choose who you purchase propane from. I try to take advantage of pre buy programs and purchase at low points in the market. If its new construction consider heat tubes in the floor I have it in my shop and love it.

 

[Beef_Supreme]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

Wood stove and a ceiling fan?? Just saying...

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 73 fastback</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If its new construction consider heat tubes in the floor I have it in my shop and love it. </div></div>

Everyone that has installed the hot water floor heat in shops etc in this frozen hell hole in the winter have been extremely happy with it. Never heard anyone say they would not do it over! Comfort wise and for the stability of a cement floor with machines that require/need stability I think it would be perfect. Not to mention warm toes in sandles if that is what you prefer while working. However hot chips might reduce some of that free spirit comfort!

Best would be to plan this ahead of time and insulate the chit out of the exterior below frostline to save energy costs.

 

[Big Toby]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

By split unit I assume you are talking about the electric units that have the compressor outside with a small fan/evap unit inside that are designed for one room. We had them overseas cooling worked well heat was very lacking. Consult a few reputable HVAC techs in your area. They may have something to help supplement the heating side. But insulation and stopping air loss are your best friends. Most people are amazed the savings they realize when they invest in a couple of tubes of caulking and some expanding foam insulation.

 

[pwc001]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Old adage for cooling was 400sq ft per ton for commercial AC and 600sq ft per ton for residential. Least that is how I always sized them in the ole days. Of course how well or how bad your building is insulated makes some difference, along with how many windows/doors and types. Heat loss/heat gain from machines running etc.

My bet would be 2 ton of air and at least 70K BTU for heating. But then I haven't been in the business for 10+yrs. Your 1.5 ton A/C might be adequate but I think you are considerably short on heat? </div></div>

^^^ This, I would just go with 500 sqft a ton. Also what kind of insulation and windows, as these can be big factors in what size you need. Is the building in the shade?

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

A 2 to 2-1/2 ton commercial split system (14 seer or higher for improved power bills) will work for cooling. If you have a small area to sacrifice, get an updraft style unit, and you can run the duct up and have the diffusers drop to the down into the rooms. Also consider this when sizing. Does any of your equipment kick off a lot of heat? I have seen stuff sized according to sq.ft and not be enough because the equipment puts out its own heat load. I have also seen places not designed right in where they actually needed to run AC during winter time, and yes, you can run AC during the winter if you set them up right. I had to conver some stuff in an office space that was converted for gaming (casino stuff) machines. The AC would turn into a block of ice because it was running cooling in December, when it would have been running in heat if it were just people in the space. Forget the mini-splits. Those are good for server rooms and one space at a time. Do one unit for the whole space. Most of the work will be in running tin and thats it.

For heat, consider a propane fired hot water boiler, and baseboard radiators along the office perimeters. If that doenst warm things enough, a hot water coil mounted in the duct will also work. A standard efficiency boiler in the 70-95K BTU range will do fine. Just need someone who knows how to wire up the pump and control stuff.

Its all really easy for any company that is familiar with commercial setups. Dont waste time talking to residential companies. A good company that does a lot of commercial work like offices and stuff should be able to get you a quote and install it with ease.

Aside from the sq footage, there is some other info that could help. How many windows is there? Is it concrete/block wall, insulated and drywall? New building, renovation, existing? Drop ceiling, drywall, open? These are all questions that they will ask you so they can get you a quote. If its all open stuff, you can use ceiling hung unit heaters. The AC is pretty straight forward. The heating gives you many options. My favorite setup is some type of radiant heat. Forced hot air heating is very dry, kiscks up dust, and smells. Especially if its electric heat, but I would stay away from that. Its not too friendly on that utility bill.

 

[Dave Berryhill]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

Great thread! I will be in the same situation soon. What about humidity or moisture control during the winter?

 

[KYS]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

I have a small electric/propane based heater in my garage and it will heat that place up in a few minutes. Its capable of 90 degrees in under 12 minute I think.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Berryhill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great thread! I will be in the same situation soon. What about humidity or moisture control during the winter?</div></div>

Summertime humidity control: Any mechanical cooling system will remove humidity from the air. In a shop/garage environment, low humidity is desirable because it will keep rust and corrosion at a minimum on tools and equipment. It beocmes more critical if you have a lot of computer controlled stuff, servers, ect, because static electricity can build more and damage sensitive electronics. Might be an issue if SAC has CNC stuff. A seperate humidifier may be needed if that is the case.

Wintertime humidity control: Wintertime is generally dry to begin with, especially in Ohio. Figure once the temp is below 32* that is where you see frost. Frost is the humidity in the air, frozen and laying on the ground. So, as with the AC issue, a seperate humidifier may be needed.

Word of caution. With AC, bigger is not always better. If you have too large a syster, it WILL lower the temperature very quickly, HOWEVER, in areas of high humidity, lowering the temperature too fast can cause condensation on surfaces and walls. It needs to be gradual, not a rapid drop. I have seen walls sweat because the system is too big.

Static electricity may also be a concern if there is reloading equipment in the area too. I live in the desert now, static is an issue, however, I have never had any incidents regarding static and powder. I know in large server rooms that I have worked in, techs will use a grounding strap of some kind so static can discharge through that if thew are working on equipment. The presence, or absence of carpeting can also be a factor in this, as my reloading stuff is in my garage, and its all concrete.

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: New shop, heating/cooling help needed.

Oh, and in case my credentials are a concern, I did commercial, industrial and pharmacutical HVAC/R for 8 years. Small systems like what SAC is looking were considered good side jobs for us. I dunno how strong the unions are in Ohio, but if you can find a shop that is part of a United Association local, the tech you get will know their shit. Its not some 6 month trade school training. After a 5 year apprenticeship I have forgotten more stuff that what most places teach.