• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Range Report OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

Supersubes

Heathen
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Sep 6, 2006
    8,832
    10,585
    Eastern Sierra
    For the 500 yd update, scroll down.

    I installed a new .260 barrel on my AW a few days ago. It's a 27" Broughton 5C, medium palma, 1-8 twist, with a badger thruster break. It was chambered by a Steve Rorick of Inland accuracy. I cleaned the barrel, loaded up some ammo in virgin necked Win 7-08 brass, and headed to the range. I used 139 scenars and H4350.

    The first round after the bore sight can bee seen at the bottom of the main photo. I zeroed it and fired a three shot group(see below), then dialed up and went straight into the test loads. The loads were fired in round robin fashion. I wouldn't normally do this at 100, but I just wanted to shoot it. I also wanted to show a few friends at the range that this stuff is possible. Break-ins, and weighing charges to .1 grain are just a huge waste of time IMO.

    I had to deal with a line break after the first seven rounds, so I had to get off the gun. The charge weights and group size in inches were written under each group. I shot prone from a bipod and a redman bag. The 42.3 group had a high flyer on the final shot. Based upon the rest of the groups, it had to have been me. There was a fellow hide member with me who watched the progression.
    Iphonepics013.jpg


    Shots 2,3, and 4.
    Iphonepics015.jpg


    Took the gun home and cleaned it using butches bore shine. I brushed it good and let it sit for a few minutes, then ran two dry patches to get the gunk out. I cleaned the brake, and then short stroked three wets, letting it sit for 5 minutes between each of the patches. Then I wrapped a wet patch around the jag and rolled it between my fingers for about 20 seconds to see if the patch would react with the brass dewey jag...it did. I ran a dry through it to clean the solvent that had been sitting for 5 minutes from wet patch #3. It looks to me like there was really no meaningful copper in after the brushing. I have seen this same performance over and over from a number of the major custom barrel makers. I think I'll clean this again around christmas time.

    From left to right
    Iphonepics012.jpg


    I have a few other bullets to try but I'll limit it to one or two at the most. I'm pretty happy with the results so far.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    So you got a good barrel....lot's of those out there.

    After your "OCW test", what load did you pick as your OCW?

    And, if you don't mind, clarify your comment on "weighing powder charges to .1 grain".......
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Im going to run it again at 500 yards since this didn't tell me anything beyond basic accuracy.

    Once I find the node I want to work in, I won't weigh charges anymore, just throw from the measure.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Well, if you are truely going by OCW guidelines, and can actually shoot the difference, then you have a scatter node around 41.7ish, and one around 42.3ish...but there's no way to tell anything about the edges or centers of the accuracy nodes because you don't have enough data....because your increments are too big.

    And, you clearly haven't found pressure yet.......

    You're not done, but, by all means, jump to 500 yards and muddy your waters a little more.

    The only resemblance to OCW here, and your next step, is shooting this step round robbin....you may's well just call it a ladder and not confuse the new people looking for true OCW advice.

    And, yes, you are correct in your thinking that if a true OCW accuracy node is found it will absorb quite a bit of +/- around the node's center and still function <span style="font-style: italic">ok</span>....but why would you not take advantage of staying precisely in the center of the accuracy node by weighing true charges and using that +/- advantage for such things as temperature shifts, differences in lot numbers, variences in case capacity, etc?

    I've personally never wanted to dump a ton of money into an accurate barrel, and a fair amount of time into working up a load, and then take two steps back by allowing a self imposed handicap with inaccurate charge weights.

    But, whatever, you at least wowed somebody that had even less of a clue..........
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    a "flyer" will happen in a scatter node when the bullet is exiting when the shock wave hits the end of the barrel. this leads to inconsistent exit points and rounds "scatter" on paper no matter how well you shoot. this is different then a called flyer that is from the shooter.

    for true OCW you must use smaller increments and shoot round robin. it is suggested to do this at 100 yards to eliminate wind effects.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    You are right, I haven't found pressure yet. My max was based on my previous .260 which topped out at 41 grains. This one will clearly take more.

    I never said that THESE charge weights were not accurate. I was speaking generally of loading within a node. I have done the .1 grain increments in the past and frankly, it doesn't make a difference. Not at 100 not at 1000. If I recall, Dan specifically mentions .2-.3 grain increments in his method. His sample targets also reflect that graduation. I refer people there regularly, but it's been a while for me.

    In my past testing, adding distance has always increased resolution. It is simply easier to see the vertical. I'm confident in my abilities at 500yds to complete the test again, without muddying anything.

    For some perspective, these loads were put together very simply. No sorting or prep of the brass or bullets, with the exception of sizing and chamfering the brass. I chose .020 of jump because it worked in my last .260. The chamber is also saami(read fat), with a little more freebore.

    If I superimpose each of these targets on top of one another with respect to point of aim, 20 of my 21 shots fit under a nickel. Clearly I have problems! I should take up basket weaving. As I said, I just wanted to shoot the thing. In 25 rounds I have clearly established the gun is very accurate...sure, I should have gone higher.

    I posted this for a few reasons. To show a new barrel is accurate from shot one. To show that it is accurate across a wide range of charges, despite the lack of crazy anal load prep. And to show that the barrel cleans up the same as if I wasted a range day breaking the thing in. These things have been consistent with a good number of rifles for me, and my friends. So instead of just writing it, I posted some pics too.

    Reading about people nitpicking bullshit details here on the hide is entertaining. Seeing people struggle despite their nitpicking, in person, is pitiful to watch. When it is my friends, I'm inclined to help. The less I worry about the equipment, the better I shoot.

    If .3 grains proves to coarse for interpretation(not likely), I'll fix it. Worst case scenario, the load gets finished in two more sessions, and way less than 100 rounds. Just sprinting backwards aren't I?
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerfan9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a "flyer" will happen in a scatter node when the bullet is exiting when the shock wave hits the end of the barrel. this leads to inconsistent exit points and rounds "scatter" on paper no matter how well you shoot. this is different then a called flyer that is from the shooter.

    for true OCW you must use smaller increments and shoot round robin. it is suggested to do this at 100 yards to eliminate wind effects. </div></div>

    I understand what a scatter node is. I also shot these round robin.

    I read back through Dan's OCW "example", and he only mentions .3gr increments.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    One more thing. I understand that group size is not what I am looking for here. On the other hand, I'm not prepared to read into .1-.2" of vertical at 100 yards and call it done, no matter what the charge increment is. Stretching the distance out and magnifying the vertical, while ignoring the horizontal, has worked for me over and over.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Dan and I have had this discussion, over lunch, and he agrees with me that smaller increments more clearly define the edges of the nodes...but he had to put something down in writing as a guideline that would cover most applications. And if I'm recalling correctly, Dan specifies doing some math with a percentage to come up with the increments of charge increase that apply to your situation...so it's not a broad sweeping .3 grains for everything as you seem to think.

    Personally, I cut to the chase and skip the lower 2/3's of the load parameters, and just concentrate on where I KNOW the upper node is going to reside...which is just shy of the pressure limit. To rough things in I'll go .3 grain increments with large capacity magnums, .2 grain increments with '06 based cases, and .1 grain increments with everything smaller. Been known to hit my load in that manner with just one round of testing, 15 to 20 rounds....AND after a little fine tuning with seating depth have it perform quite well at 500+.

    Your mileage will likely vary......

    You've got a great barrel that shoots well, congrats...though I suspect you were more concerned with bragging about unprepped brass and not breaking it in more than you were about developing an "OCW" load. FWIW, I don't get into anal brass prep either, and a good barrel is a good barrel is a good barrel. I've never seen the point in cleaning a good barrel, much, simply because a good barrel doesn't need it like a good barrel doesn't need a break in. But, whatever........

    Looking forward to seeing how well it shoots at 500 and beyond.......do post up some groups.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpl Snafu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One more thing. I understand that group size is not what I am looking for here. On the other hand, I'm not prepared to read into .1-.2" of vertical at 100 yards and call it done, no matter what the charge increment is. Stretching the distance out and magnifying the vertical, while ignoring the horizontal, has worked for me over and over. </div></div>

    So just call it Ladder and skip trying to confuse it with OCW.....K?
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    I went camping in the desert for the last two days. It was hot as hell Tues, but wed's forecast was better so I decided to shoot the test this morning. If you have access to a cold beverage, go get it.

    The target was placed at 500 yards. It actually ranged 498-501 yards using my swaro laserguide. I had two full size "echo" steel targets set a few inches to the side of my target frame, which made an easy target for the rangefinder. I use the steel to zero the starting charge weight to a point of impact slightly above my point of aim, and centered.

    I used loads from 41.1-43.8 grains, in .3 grain increments. The rest of the load was the same as before with the exception of a higher and wider range of charges. I colored each load with a different color sharpie(ogives only). The highest load was left naked because I was out of colors. Also note there are only two shots at this charge (43.8). I didn't fire the last round because the last round at 43.5 gr showed signs of pressure and I didn't want to continue.

    It was about 70 degrees and overcast, and the only mirage came late in the string. The barrel never got hot due to the slow tempo, but I could see mirage in the scope.

    Here is the target. The black box was drawn for use as an aiming point. The actual target is poster board with very faint grid lines. The colors don't show very well here in the pic, see below.
    Iphonepics042-1.jpg


    A caliper for scale.
    Iphonepics047-1.jpg


    This is the backer. It is corrugated plastic, and shows the colors much more vividly. Since this was a previously used backer, I put a red X over a few previous holes. Note the two top holes have no color as the bullets were naked.
    Iphonepics043-1.jpg


    Once I got home I taped an 8.5X11 sheet of paper to the back of the target so the target could be used to plot out the impacts. I did this because I didn't want to screw up the target in case I made a mistake. It is difficult to see but the dot and line color corresponds to the color of the bullet that made the holes in the original target. Where the line terminates inside each group is more or less arbitrary, some are in the respective group, and some just in the middle of the entire blob of holes. The lines represent the height of the center of the each group, for easy comparison to the others. At the end of each line is the charge weight.
    Iphonepics041.jpg


    Normally I wouldn't do this much work, but this is a very graphic example of the vertical dispersion associated with an OCW test done at long range. That vertical is far less than most people realize, generally speaking.

    Every shot was fired over a chrono, and that data was recorded on a pad in between rounds to keep the tempo down. A friend of mine, who was seated at my feet, said there was a minute to a minute and a half between shots. The string was shot prone, with a redman bag, but from a different bipod than last time. This one is a harris but has big three toe claws at the end. I can't remember the name of vendor, but the owner is on the hide (Cheese maybe?). The ground in the desert is volcanic rock and dirt, and these feet bite in but don't tend to burrow deeper with each shot, as a harris foot does.

    This takes a shit load of concentration! Shooting 29 rounds with precision for nearly 45 minutes, is no joke. When I do this I don't lift my cheek off the rifle, not once. After firing, I eject the case, stick it back into the loading block where it came from, glance at the chrono, record the number, and top feed the mag through the e-port(love them AW's) with the next round for the shot. Mentally draining, and at 30 minutes or so my cheek starts to ache.

    I use a S&B 4-16 with a standard mildot. I could see the a blob forming by the time I was halfway through the string, but I could not follow any single shot. This is part of what keeps me focused, and really is the beauty of this method. I can't see a bad shot if there is one. It is like a dry fire session, with loading/unloading, and recoil. It's easy to mindf%$k yourself when you throw a shot, because you will subconsciously steer the next round, instead of letting it go and starting over. We all like to say we do that, but it is freakin hard, at least for me! If you have poor concentration skills, you will find my method hard, or have bad results, plain and simple. In fact, 30 rounds is more than I fire in any one session, and I shoot about twice a week most weeks.

    On to some analysis. Just a quick look at the plotted target with the horizontal lines (4th photo) shows you that large spreads of charge weight stack on top of each other, literally. This is where I have a disagreement with Trip. Were I to fill in the gaps with .1 intervals, this becomes very busy and hard to interpret. Am I supposed to believe that there are four more groups I should be firing, 12 more rounds, INSIDE each of these nodes? I understand that if you desire, the spread of charges can be focused down to just outside either end of the node, IF you knew where the node was. Even if you think you know where it might be, you either shoot a lot of rounds, or miss one end or the other. This string took almost 45 minutes of serious concentration, I don't have it in me to go much longer.

    To put the above into perspective, check this out. That lower node has a center to center extreme vertical spread of .07 MOA...yes, that decimal is in the right place. The middle node, is .04 MOA! The top node, where recoil was becoming substantial compared to the lower charges, is .25 MOA! Some of you may be saying "So what, who cares where the center is if the group is huge". Well, the center is the key, but the groups were small. If you want numbers, keep reading please.

    Lets spin those around another way by combining the groups together for each node. Each of these nodes, as you can see, has a spread of .6 grains. Even if the node edges vary a tick outside or inside, we are talking about ONE QUARTER MOA at the very worst here! What possible good could it do to add more intervals. Can anybody here shoot inside that? Can you shoot inside a .04-.25 MOA vertical spread at 500 yards...I mean enough to test and gain data? With a show of hands, how many of you would like to shoot .25 MOA vertical with your loads at 500 yards (everybody's hands should be up). I am not challenging anyone, or bragging, I am simply speaking of practical field accuracy. How does one sit down, or lay, and discern .1gr? I'm pretty sure my extreme spreads, which are normally in the teens, can absorb .1 grains. Sure, with enough data points, you'll see the trend. Practical field accuracy, not benchrest.

    Looked at another way:

    The lower node group size (all three groups)is .49 MOA tall, and .85 MOA wide, and encompasses a 72 fps extreme spread. 9 rounds into half MOA. Respectable anywhere, crazy considering the charge window size and round robin routine!

    The middle node group size is .52 MOA tall, and .22 MOA wide, and encompasses a 62fps extreme spread.

    The upper node group size is .6 MOA tall, and .57 MOA wide, and encompasses a 69 fps extreme spread.

    Hurrah for barrel harmonics! No care whatsoever was taken to shoot in any specific wind condition. That would have taken far too long, and would have ignored the loose tempo I can keep with the firing cycle. This way barrel heat increases progressively across all rounds fired, as best I can control, while shooting well.

    Here are some other stats:

    The mean average vertical dispersion for each individual charge weight was .33 MOA(all ten loads). The small group was 42.6 gr at .1 MOA, followed closely by 43.2 gr at .16 MOA. Large group was .49 MOA (two actually 41.7, and 42.3)

    The average group size for each load(all of them), measured center to center, was .47 MOA. Small group was from 42.6 gr at .23 MOA, followed closely by 43.2 at .25 MOA. Large group was 41.1 at .74 MOA which was all horizontal because it was only .36 MOA tall.

    These would be very good results if one was firing three shot groups of different loads individually, as is traditionally done by the reloader. This is exceptional when you consider the variables involved in firing this many loads, over this much time, in a round robin fashion. Aside from some of the velocity thresholds, I haven't looked into the velocities at all.

    My initial post was not for the purpose of bragging, although re-reading that post, it does come across a little snide. I apologize. I understand that lots here on the hide are on-board with cleaning and break-in, or should I say the lack of it, but there are still lots of you that aren't! Trip, you know this. I wasn't speaking directly at you. Except for LL, I can't remember the last time someone posted what I did to include accuracy and cleaning. Maybe it happened yesterday and I missed it, I don't know. I took the opportunity to do it in front of people, and take some pics.

    Charge weights:

    People here obsess over this, along with every other element of their loads. I'm not talking about testing, I'm talking about day to day loading. You are worse off for this. If you need this to feel good about your ammo or shooting, you should shift your focus IMO. I am also not talking about ELR shooting...If a target was beyond about 1350 yards, I've never dropped the hammer on it.

    Dan Newberry:

    I have never met him, or even exchanged an email with him (that I can recall anyway). The guy deserves some serious credit. Putting a methodology together that absolutely revolutionized load development, and giving it a name. My execution is different than his, but the results are interpreted exactly the same.

    Trip, you and I are just gonna have to agree to disagree. You can call my method a giraffe if you want, or a parrot because it is colorful, but I think it adheres to Dan's method pretty well. In fact this exact method links out of his site somewhere, although I cannot find it right now. It may be an indirect link, but his site is how I got there. I will continue to call it OCW. You may think I'm clueless, but my targets are not lying to me. These experiences, as I have said, have been repeated many times before. While today's results are exceptional, they are in-line with with a dozen or so other rifles.

    Reading through Dan's site, the only concrete difference I can find is he prefers individual bulls, and 100 yards. The principles are all here though.

    On a slightly random note, I have a custom .17 fireball which I shoot 20 gr V-maxes in. I did this same test at 400 yards...even the gunsmith laughed at me. Believe it or not, I used .3 grain increments. Results were excellent, and I still have the target to prove it. I'm not a die hard .3 grain increment guy, use what you want. With a .308 size case, .3 falls right in with Dan's instructions and examples.

    conclusion:

    I still have some work to do. Dan recommends loading up a few in the center of the node, and two more sets of loads in .1 grain increments on either side of it. That makes perfect sense, and I'll be doing that.

    Just glancing over the velocities, they are very promising. If you are curious, the highest velocity was 2935, and the average for the 42.6 gr load (middle of the middle node)was approximately 2830 fps.

    I do not agree with doing an OCW at 100 yards, plain and simple. For me, I showed I can do it in my first post, but doing it this way is like holding a magnifying glass up to the results. I also don't recommend you go out and do it at 500 unless you know yourself to be consistent. An intermediate range can work just as well, perhaps 300 yards. No reason you couldn't use multiple bulls either, I like my way because the shot setup is consistent. I have one bull to aim at the entire test.

    I also shot 5 rounds of 130 jlk VLD's while in the desert and believe it or not, the group was a stunner, and may shoot better than the 139's. I was even jumping them .020. That's not unusual for this batch of JLKs (I have a few thousand), but it is a little weird for VLD's.

    Today I was able establish several clear nodes. One of them is not viable(upper), due to pressure. I don't want to operate that close to the limit. I want ammo that works. Whether I leave it in the car on a sunny day, or in direct sunlight, I will not except anything but 24/7 365 functioning ammo. I also established today that the entire range of charges shoots accurately at long range. I have shot nearly 4000 139's so I know they work, but relying on a 100 yard test would require a longer range test at some point.

    For me, this method just works. The results are interesting, and they leave little to guess about.

    Monkey wrench! Random load using the 130 JLK's at 500 yards. 5 rounds, and no attempt to shoot around conditions.
    Iphonepics020.jpg




    Dan Newberry's site:
    http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/




     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Thanks for posting your fantastic 500yd results. Your method, to me anyway, seems to combine the strengths of the OCW and ladder approaches. So I could care less what it's called. Looks like it works great.

    I don't have 500yds available at my regular range, so I think I'll try your approach at 300yd with some loads I'm working on. This appears to be a very efficient way to identify and document the best nodes.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Cply Snafu,
    It's really interesting that the horizontal dispersion really showed up at 500yards... no clue of it on your 100yrd target.

    I usually do my OCW at 100yrds.. oh what I could be missing!

    Thanks for sharing!
    RJ
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: richardj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cply Snafu,
    It's really interesting that the horizontal dispersion really showed up at 500yards... no clue of it on your 100yrd target.

    I usually do my OCW at 100yrds.. oh what I could be missing!

    Thanks for sharing!
    RJ </div></div>

    The Capt did a lot of work and, IMHO, it only shows that the vertical dispersion I see in his 100 yard OCW got worse at 500 yards. If you look at the 100 yard OCW target you will see vertical with every load he shot. Nothing was nice and round. Also, since he was shooting from a bipod and prone (and I am not throwing off on his shooting ability by any means) there could be some gun handling issue that is helping induce the vertical.
    Disclaimer: I am not an OCW specialist and I refuse to stay in a Holiday Inn. This is just my editorial comment. If anyone who meets the above requirements would like to share his expertise and teach me something, please do.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    .. or it was cold shooter.. and he settled in nicely after a few rounds... I went back and looked at the first sheet again and I agree with you.

    Still I certainly agree with the sentiment about going beyond 100yds for OCW
    RJ
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    It is weird that the horizontal was there at the low loads but cleared up. The wind was from 12 o'clock almost perfectly, but was blustery, and no wind stays from one direction always. Kind of freaky how the horizontal just went away.

    I'm also with you guys on the vertical. It is there in both, and certainly could be a handling issue, I'm not above that. In fact, given the velocities, it is probably a good chance it was.

    I also wonder what the affects of a warming barrel are. If you think about it, each round of a given group had quite a bit of time between the last. Then again, it is very consistent vertical.

    Another thing to consider is that 3 round groups are not a perfect way to gauge accuracy. Additional rounds would have filled in some of these.



     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    One more thing, I don't load the bipod...ever. I just cant get consistent with it. Maybe if I worked at it.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    Capt,
    I once posted some load data for a 308 and the chrono numbers it produced. Someone told me the load would never be accurate at 1000 yards because, using JBM, the velocity spread would cause 10 feet of drop between the lowest and highest velocity. Well, technically, they were right but the load shot inside two MOA with my sloppy ass behind the rifle.
    I think too much happens between that 100 and 500 yard line, especially for some of us, to make any call about a load being a success or failure.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    I think it all looks small in person. Even the big groups aren't when viewed in the context of the range .



    My last .260 was the most accurate gun I had ever owned, but I'm thinking this one will spank it.
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    Here are my notes from the 500 yard string. Instead of writing about them I figured you all could just look at them.
    Iphonepics009.jpg
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    A group from last summer, 190 SMK's out of a 1:9.5 twisted 25" Krieger, posted several times already for argumental OCW purposes.

    500 yards really isn't that far if you spend a lot of time there.

    And, 1/4 MOA at 500 yards isn't that tough....even when you manage to fuck up and pull one.

    First time shooting that load and that rifle at the 500 yard mark, and directly after finalizing the OCW with testing done at 100 yards.

    You may consider .1 grain testing to be a waste of time, I consider not knowing EXACTLY what my rifle is doing a waste of time.

    But....congrats, certainly, on a fairly decent shooting rifle.......

    500yds83112.jpg

    1and5sixtennths.jpg


     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    Thanks Cpl Snafu,

    I think this is the best post I've ever seen on the subject of OCW and ladder testing. Especially testing the vertical at distance since most of the shooting we do is at long rang.

    Do you plan on further tests with seating depth, 5 shot groups, SD/ES or are going to call it good since your rifle is shooting so well?
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Cpl Snafu,

    I think this is the best post I've ever seen on the subject of OCW and ladder testing. Especially testing the vertical at distance since most of the shooting we do is at long rang.

    Do you plan on further tests with seating depth, 5 shot groups, SD/ES or are going to call it good since your rifle is shooting so well?

    </div></div>

    Steve,

    Yes, I'll be doing some more testing but not much as far as this bullet is concerned. I would like to play with seating depth. I would also like to play with the 130 JLK's. They are much more slippery than the 139's.
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    Trip, seriously?

    That is a great group, no doubt about it. Some would nitpick and say that it has too much vertical. I would reply to those people with "bullshit", because .25 MOA is good anywhere and anytime with a mag fed tac rifle. In fact I would argue that it is 5 times better than the same feat at 100. Before I go on, that vertical comment was not a knock on Richardj and shoot4fun.

    Using one group from a tuned load as a demonstration of the capability of a 100 yd OCW is ridiculous. Here's why.





    Standard R700 .223 bolt rifle shooting 77 smk's(not aerodynamic). A swag load that I stumbled on and have never changed. Havent even done an OCW test with this rifle.

    That hit on the right is a true cold bore, and this was witnessed.

    Range is 730 yards. edited: This could be anywhere from 600-730, but I think it is 730 from memory.
    223groupJPG-1.jpg


    Same rifle, same load, 650 yards, different day, also witnessed. edited: could be anywhere from 530 to 700, not sure.
    008-2.jpg


    My AW with the previous 6.5X47 barrel. OCW done as I showed above.

    650yards, first round hit +2 more, and witnessed.
    Iphonepics049-2.jpg


    About a minute later, first round hit +2, 730 yards.
    Iphonepics051-2.jpg


    A minute after that, first round hit +2, 875 yards.
    Iphonepics052-1.jpg



    Maybe the OCW is worthless? Or maybe we all shoot a screamer now and again? Maybe there is more ways than one to shoot small. I shoot pretty good most times, but I can't hold .25 (or.5, or 1) everyday for damn sure.

    I wasn't talking about outright group size in my report. I was talking about resolving .1 grain increments, inside a node that was already producing vertical that is at the limits of the platform and the shooter( and most shooters). I could have shot .1 increments...I would have just filled in the node!

    You are very vested in .1 increments because you've been pounding it about the threads for a while now. You couldn't back out of it now if you wanted to. My point is that there is room for flexibility in this area. Telling a new guy he needs to resolve .1 grain increments when he/she is struggling to hold MOA is just plain bad advice.

    I'll at least submit to Dan's method of charge weight based upon a percentage of case capacity.

    I'm being a little harsh, but your backhanded compliments and superiority complex strikes a nerve with me. Go ahead and keep on arguing with a guy who is having success on target.




     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    Damn capt!
    Trip's "no brag just facts" really sucked you in.
    You have one helluva a thread going here so keep taking the high road my friend.
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    He sure did didn't he! I popped a Midol and I'm all better now.
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    Cpl Snafu,

    As a new long range shooter I found your write up to be very helpful. I just need the AICS chassis and my 260 will be complete.

    After reading your results I will most likely try to mimic your procedure. .3gr increments seem like a great place to start. I have a target sled that I made that is 36"w X 48"h. I have rolls of white butcher paper that I cover the target with. Will the sharpie ink show effectivly on that? Do you just color the visible portion of the bullet after loading?

    It seems odd to me that the ink stays on the bullet after its trip down the barrel... But if it works, it works.

    I plan on loading the 139 scenars and 142 SMKs over H4350.

    If you have any advice to offer a new shooter, please do!

    Thank you for sharing your results.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    A good number of years back, I used a term I dubbed OCW, but it had a different meaning for me. Optimal Charge Weight, yes; but not relative to a specific given rifle. In my instance, I referred more to a bullet/charge/chambering formula that was optimal to the more common barrel configurations, like the .30 cal 24"-26" barrel that is so common on factory rifles. I meant it as a means to understand why some generic loads, like FGMM, worked so well across so many rifle model lines.

    Later, the term reappeared in association with its current meaning. Personally, I feel no concern about its reapplication, and can see some relevence to its current association. I neither confirm nor dispute its current relevence.

    While some here will dispute the value of barrel break-in, I personally believe that a used barrel probably exhibits a somewhat modified bore transit time relative to its transit time when still virgin-new. Whatever that difference is, I consider it to be real and significant.

    As such, I believe it betrays the effort to develop matched load in a virgin barrel.

    By matched load, I mean a load whose transit time is matched to barrel harmonics. Barrel harmonics (frequencies) should be a constant from the new condition to the old condition in the barrel; but transit time will vary according to prevailing bore condition. Hence, I prefer to shoot the barrel in before engaging in serious final load development.

    I shoot it in the interim with various commercial loads, to see where the accuracy potential lies, and in which factory loads they might most likely occur.

    Except in really larger cases (like .30-'06, .280, etc.), I also prefer .3gr increments.

    With the .260, many of us have found accuracy with the 142SMK/140A-Max and somewhere around 42.0gr to 44.0gr of H-4350. I would consider 44.5gr to 45.0gr to be a reasonably tame max. My L-W 28", 1:8" barrel likes 43.8gr of H-4350 with the 142SMK.

    Greg
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    One of the most interesting posts & comments IMHO! WoW!
    The question I have for both of you would be, as you pull the trigger, how much $$ total are you pulling the trigger on?? Rifle, Scope, Gunsmithing, etc?
    How much would an average shooter have to spend to have a rifle that shoots that good?
    I am having good first round results with a OCW test @ 100 yards with a 300 WSM, 338 Lapua,(2 count), 243, and a 7mag.
    I love this website/forum!! Your pics and posts absolutely made my day, month, year!! Thank You!
     
    Re: OCW from a new and unfired barrel(500yd update)

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AMG04</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cpl Snafu,

    As a new long range shooter I found your write up to be very helpful. I just need the AICS chassis and my 260 will be complete.

    After reading your results I will most likely try to mimic your procedure. .3gr increments seem like a great place to start. I have a target sled that I made that is 36"w X 48"h. I have rolls of white butcher paper that I cover the target with. Will the sharpie ink show effectivly on that? Do you just color the visible portion of the bullet after loading?

    It seems odd to me that the ink stays on the bullet after its trip down the barrel... But if it works, it works.

    I plan on loading the 139 scenars and 142 SMKs over H4350.

    If you have any advice to offer a new shooter, please do!

    Thank you for sharing your results.
    </div></div>

    I just color the ogive. Seems like a better option than coloring the bearing surface. I don't see why the butcher paper wouldn't work.


    Greg: I hear ya, but I think it is splitting hairs to worry about virgin vs. shot-in barrels. Two previous 6.5 barrels acted the same new to well used (this .260 is my third), and I have never seen a need to redo the OCW. If I'm hitting, i'm not messing with anything.
     
    Re: OCW test from a new and unfired barrel

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the most interesting posts & comments IMHO! WoW!
    The question I have for both of you would be, as you pull the trigger, how much $$ total are you pulling the trigger on?? Rifle, Scope, Gunsmithing, etc?
    How much would an average shooter have to spend to have a rifle that shoots that good?
    I am having good first round results with a OCW test @ 100 yards with a 300 WSM, 338 Lapua,(2 count), 243, and a 7mag.
    I love this website/forum!! Your pics and posts absolutely made my day, month, year!! Thank You! </div></div>

    It isn't about money spent. Any Remington based custom can shoot this way. I shoot a AI AW because I think they are the bees knees, but it isn't a requirement.
     
    Last edited: