Is there a significantly better round for ELR than the 338LM? How does it compare to the 375CT? I am an AI nut, so what I really want to have is an AI re barreled in the best ELR round that will fit safely and reliably in their long action AW or AX. I already have 2 50BMGs so I don't want anything that big or heavy. Is it even possible to have an AI re barreled in 375CT or similar caliber?
- Thread starter GUNENTHUSIAST
- Start date
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
What makes you say that?
What makes you say that?
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I don't think but, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, that you'd be able to rebarrel on the action you have and go with 375CT. There are a limited number of action makers for that caliber. I doubt you'd be able to get it to go into an AI chassis but, I'm not a gunsmith.
I'm sure there are a lot of cartridges you could go with that may work for you though. I like the 338LM. It's a long range round and, it comes in at a weight that can be managed as a somewhat normal rifle. When you start to go to an even larger action, you get into serious weight issues as you already know with the 50bmg.
Even with a 375CT, you get into a rifle that is over 20lbs but, they sure do perform well off a bipod, no doubt but, I don't want to shoot one offhand. lol
Um, If I were going to build another 375CT, I'd most likely put it in an XLR chassis but, I realize your goal is to use the action and chassis you have.
I'm sure there are some wildcats you could look at and keep your action and chassis. I have not researched ballistics on many of them.
Is anyone here running a 30/338 Laupa? Seems like there are some new slick 30 caliber bullets out that would work well with that lately... I'm not sure how much, "better" it would be than a standard 338LM, however.
I don't think but, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, that you'd be able to rebarrel on the action you have and go with 375CT. There are a limited number of action makers for that caliber. I doubt you'd be able to get it to go into an AI chassis but, I'm not a gunsmith.
I'm sure there are a lot of cartridges you could go with that may work for you though. I like the 338LM. It's a long range round and, it comes in at a weight that can be managed as a somewhat normal rifle. When you start to go to an even larger action, you get into serious weight issues as you already know with the 50bmg.
Even with a 375CT, you get into a rifle that is over 20lbs but, they sure do perform well off a bipod, no doubt but, I don't want to shoot one offhand. lol
Um, If I were going to build another 375CT, I'd most likely put it in an XLR chassis but, I realize your goal is to use the action and chassis you have.
I'm sure there are some wildcats you could look at and keep your action and chassis. I have not researched ballistics on many of them.
Is anyone here running a 30/338 Laupa? Seems like there are some new slick 30 caliber bullets out that would work well with that lately... I'm not sure how much, "better" it would be than a standard 338LM, however.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think but, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, that you'd be able to rebarrel on the action you have and go with 375CT. There are a limited number of action makers for that caliber. I doubt you'd be able to get it to go into an AI chassis but, I'm not a gunsmith.
I'm sure there are a lot of cartridges you could go with that may work for you though. I like the 338LM. It's a long range round and, it comes in at a weight that can be managed as a somewhat normal rifle. When you start to go to an even larger action, you get into serious weight issues as you already know with the 50bmg.
Even with a 375CT, you get into a rifle that is over 20lbs but, they sure do perform well off a bipod, no doubt but, I don't want to shoot one offhand. lol
Um, If I were going to build another 375CT, I'd most likely put it in an XLR chassis but, I realize your goal is to use the action and chassis you have.
I'm sure there are some wildcats you could look at and keep your action and chassis. I have not researched ballistics on many of them.
Is anyone here running a 30/338 Laupa? Seems like there are some new slick 30 caliber bullets out that would work well with that lately... I'm not sure how much, "better" it would be than a standard 338LM, however. </div></div>
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think but, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, that you'd be able to rebarrel on the action you have and go with 375CT. There are a limited number of action makers for that caliber. I doubt you'd be able to get it to go into an AI chassis but, I'm not a gunsmith.
I'm sure there are a lot of cartridges you could go with that may work for you though. I like the 338LM. It's a long range round and, it comes in at a weight that can be managed as a somewhat normal rifle. When you start to go to an even larger action, you get into serious weight issues as you already know with the 50bmg.
Even with a 375CT, you get into a rifle that is over 20lbs but, they sure do perform well off a bipod, no doubt but, I don't want to shoot one offhand. lol
Um, If I were going to build another 375CT, I'd most likely put it in an XLR chassis but, I realize your goal is to use the action and chassis you have.
I'm sure there are some wildcats you could look at and keep your action and chassis. I have not researched ballistics on many of them.
Is anyone here running a 30/338 Laupa? Seems like there are some new slick 30 caliber bullets out that would work well with that lately... I'm not sure how much, "better" it would be than a standard 338LM, however. </div></div>
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Sort these in order of priority
accuracy
down range energy
ammo costs
barrel life
impact signature
Sort these in order of priority
accuracy
down range energy
ammo costs
barrel life
impact signature
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
This rifle will be a relatively low volume shooter at I would guess about 500 rounds annually as I have my AI in 260 for tactical matches and higher volume shooting which I put about 2 - 2.5k rounds through a year. This rifle will primarily be used for tactical ELR matches out to 2400 yards. I think I would want a round that factory brass is available for.
1. long range ballistics and bucking the wind.
2. accuracy
3. down range energy
4. impact signature
5. barrel life
6. ammo cost
This rifle will be a relatively low volume shooter at I would guess about 500 rounds annually as I have my AI in 260 for tactical matches and higher volume shooting which I put about 2 - 2.5k rounds through a year. This rifle will primarily be used for tactical ELR matches out to 2400 yards. I think I would want a round that factory brass is available for.
1. long range ballistics and bucking the wind.
2. accuracy
3. down range energy
4. impact signature
5. barrel life
6. ammo cost
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance. </div></div>
I believe we were saying the same thing. I was saying they were different.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance. </div></div>
I believe we were saying the same thing. I was saying they were different.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This rifle will be a relatively low volume shooter at I would guess about 500 rounds annually as I have my AI in 260 for tactical matches and higher volume shooting which I put about 2 - 2.5k rounds through a year. This rifle will primarily be used for tactical ELR matches out to 2400 yards. I think I would want a round that factory brass is available for.
1. long range ballistics and bucking the wind.
2. accuracy
3. down range energy
4. impact signature
5. barrel life
6. ammo cost </div></div>
Are you stuck in your current chassis and action? ( is that a requirement? ) It sounded to me as if you wanted to just re-barrel.
I'd recommend a 375CT, SnipeTac, VM or something along those lines but, that would require new everything. I don't have a 338LM but, I think 2400 may be a stretch for that round. ( I'm sure somebody here has done it though )
I was kind of in your boat except I shoot a 300wm and decided on the 375CT as a second rifle that won't be used as much but, my criteria was exactly the same as yours.
I'm no bullet smith so, I don't know all the wildcats that are possible on your action as it sits. I'm sure others here do though. It doesn't sound you're wanting to go the wildcat thing anyway if you want factory brass.
I'd recommend you rebarrel your 338LM and sell it and build your long, long range thump stick! LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This rifle will be a relatively low volume shooter at I would guess about 500 rounds annually as I have my AI in 260 for tactical matches and higher volume shooting which I put about 2 - 2.5k rounds through a year. This rifle will primarily be used for tactical ELR matches out to 2400 yards. I think I would want a round that factory brass is available for.
1. long range ballistics and bucking the wind.
2. accuracy
3. down range energy
4. impact signature
5. barrel life
6. ammo cost </div></div>
Are you stuck in your current chassis and action? ( is that a requirement? ) It sounded to me as if you wanted to just re-barrel.
I'd recommend a 375CT, SnipeTac, VM or something along those lines but, that would require new everything. I don't have a 338LM but, I think 2400 may be a stretch for that round. ( I'm sure somebody here has done it though )
I was kind of in your boat except I shoot a 300wm and decided on the 375CT as a second rifle that won't be used as much but, my criteria was exactly the same as yours.
I'm no bullet smith so, I don't know all the wildcats that are possible on your action as it sits. I'm sure others here do though. It doesn't sound you're wanting to go the wildcat thing anyway if you want factory brass.
I'd recommend you rebarrel your 338LM and sell it and build your long, long range thump stick! LOL
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance. </div></div>
I believe we were saying the same thing. I was saying they were different. </div></div>
Now that I re-read it, yeah your right. Sorry about that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
Sorry but your wrong, two different cartridges. One is based off the 416 rigby and the other is based off the 505 gibbs. But the 375 CT is definitely a better round for distance. </div></div>
I believe we were saying the same thing. I was saying they were different. </div></div>
Now that I re-read it, yeah your right. Sorry about that.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
.338LM is well balanced with velocity/mass and has both rifle and ammo components available in volume. That said, it really starts to reach its limits at 2000 yards. The Cheytac-based cartridges increase the mass with the same or faster velocities. Combine that with high BC solids and they start to reach their limits farther out than .338LM. For example:
Common .338LM loads
250gr Scenar @ 2950fps
300gr Scenar @ 2750fps
Common .408CT load
419gr solid @ 2900fps
Common .375CT loads
350gr solid @ 3250fps
350gr SMK @ 3100fps
When you plug those numbers into JBM you will see the performance difference. A common gage is "supersonic range" and that's where the .375CT has been king, often staying supersonic to 2800 yards.
Now, unlike the .338LM, rifle and especially ammo components are harder to find. On top of that, the Cheytac cases require a boltface size that's inbetween .338LM and .50BMG, so you are less likely to see Cheytac conversions of .338LM platforms and more likely to see them from .50BMG platforms.
.338LM is well balanced with velocity/mass and has both rifle and ammo components available in volume. That said, it really starts to reach its limits at 2000 yards. The Cheytac-based cartridges increase the mass with the same or faster velocities. Combine that with high BC solids and they start to reach their limits farther out than .338LM. For example:
Common .338LM loads
250gr Scenar @ 2950fps
300gr Scenar @ 2750fps
Common .408CT load
419gr solid @ 2900fps
Common .375CT loads
350gr solid @ 3250fps
350gr SMK @ 3100fps
When you plug those numbers into JBM you will see the performance difference. A common gage is "supersonic range" and that's where the .375CT has been king, often staying supersonic to 2800 yards.
Now, unlike the .338LM, rifle and especially ammo components are harder to find. On top of that, the Cheytac cases require a boltface size that's inbetween .338LM and .50BMG, so you are less likely to see Cheytac conversions of .338LM platforms and more likely to see them from .50BMG platforms.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SVG308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could always go 338 Lapua Improved and push 300 Bergers at 3,000+ fps. That will give you 2300-2500 range depending on elevation. </div></div>
+1 for the AI version of the 338 LM. I'll have 2+1 with a coal right up near 4" with a Wyatt extended box mag.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SVG308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could always go 338 Lapua Improved and push 300 Bergers at 3,000+ fps. That will give you 2300-2500 range depending on elevation. </div></div>
+1 for the AI version of the 338 LM. I'll have 2+1 with a coal right up near 4" with a Wyatt extended box mag.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SVG308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could always go 338 Lapua Improved and push 300 Bergers at 3,000+ fps. That will give you 2300-2500 range depending on elevation. </div></div>
That's why I love this friggin' place... ^^^
always something new to learn... I haven't been a 338 guy... I did it a bit different... I got a 300wm as a 1000yd gun that would go further but mostly to 1000... then I figured I wanted to push it all the way out so, I skipped the 338 and went to the CT... 338 is wonderful but when I built my rifle it was for 1000yds and at 1000yds, there is not much difference between the two except cost so I found a 300 but, there are other things I could have built too... I just happened to decide on that one.
So, I wasn't going to build a 338 after already having a custom 300wm for the 1000yd tac scene.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SVG308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could always go 338 Lapua Improved and push 300 Bergers at 3,000+ fps. That will give you 2300-2500 range depending on elevation. </div></div>
That's why I love this friggin' place... ^^^
always something new to learn... I haven't been a 338 guy... I did it a bit different... I got a 300wm as a 1000yd gun that would go further but mostly to 1000... then I figured I wanted to push it all the way out so, I skipped the 338 and went to the CT... 338 is wonderful but when I built my rifle it was for 1000yds and at 1000yds, there is not much difference between the two except cost so I found a 300 but, there are other things I could have built too... I just happened to decide on that one.
So, I wasn't going to build a 338 after already having a custom 300wm for the 1000yd tac scene.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
We have shot the 338 Excaliber (300gr 3100fps) and the 338 Lazzeroni Titan (300gr @ 2900fps) out to 2449yds with great success. A friend has hit 2662yds with 338 Lapua with 300gr Sierra`s. Even though it goes subsonic doesn`t mean you can`t shoot it further. When we ran the numbers with the Titan, it should have went subsonic around 2200yds roughly but at 2600yds, we never hit it but out of 10 shots, they all missed by arms length. That was a man size torso target.
We have shot the 338 Excaliber (300gr 3100fps) and the 338 Lazzeroni Titan (300gr @ 2900fps) out to 2449yds with great success. A friend has hit 2662yds with 338 Lapua with 300gr Sierra`s. Even though it goes subsonic doesn`t mean you can`t shoot it further. When we ran the numbers with the Titan, it should have went subsonic around 2200yds roughly but at 2600yds, we never hit it but out of 10 shots, they all missed by arms length. That was a man size torso target.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
The 375 CT or even a 338/408 would be much better than a 338 Lapua at 2400. Yes the 338 Norma is going to walk past the 338 Lapua but a 338/408 is like having a 500 meter head start over a 338 Norma and you can buy everything other than brass and dies at your normal local shooting supply stores. Some will argue that you can for the 375 also and well yes you can but your really not going to see what a CT can do without shooting custom projectiles. Build a CT based case for shooting that distance and you will never second guess your choice. If you build a Lapua or Norma every windy day you will be kicking your own ass.
The 375 CT or even a 338/408 would be much better than a 338 Lapua at 2400. Yes the 338 Norma is going to walk past the 338 Lapua but a 338/408 is like having a 500 meter head start over a 338 Norma and you can buy everything other than brass and dies at your normal local shooting supply stores. Some will argue that you can for the 375 also and well yes you can but your really not going to see what a CT can do without shooting custom projectiles. Build a CT based case for shooting that distance and you will never second guess your choice. If you build a Lapua or Norma every windy day you will be kicking your own ass.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
The 375 CT blows anything out of the water minus it's big brother the 408 CT. The 375 ballistic's are better though.
And as far as significantly better you can blow anything out of the water with SELR rifle's like 20-30 MM's. Such as Barret's X109 or a 200 MM Vulcan for example. Just say'n!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSEOi4zx-8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xh2tfZrhB0
If I was shooting some SELR rifle's I would actually start calculating CE "coriolis effect" in to my +/-'s
Happy hunting,
-Sv
The 375 CT blows anything out of the water minus it's big brother the 408 CT. The 375 ballistic's are better though.
And as far as significantly better you can blow anything out of the water with SELR rifle's like 20-30 MM's. Such as Barret's X109 or a 200 MM Vulcan for example. Just say'n!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSEOi4zx-8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xh2tfZrhB0
If I was shooting some SELR rifle's I would actually start calculating CE "coriolis effect" in to my +/-'s
Happy hunting,
-Sv
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Any 338 on the 408 case is a barrel eater. The 338 Norma eguals the 338 Lapua with less powder.
Any 338 on the 408 case is a barrel eater. The 338 Norma eguals the 338 Lapua with less powder.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing!
So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing!
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing! </div></div>
All you listed are amazing sticks. In terms of long range accuracy you will find that the CT has an advantage over the rest you listed.
Make a decision tree and go from there
Post pictures of whatever you go with!
Happy hunting,
-Sv
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing! </div></div>
All you listed are amazing sticks. In terms of long range accuracy you will find that the CT has an advantage over the rest you listed.
Make a decision tree and go from there
Post pictures of whatever you go with!
Happy hunting,
-Sv
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Anyone hear anything good or bad about the Thor 408ct? That is another bad ass ELR rifle!
Anyone hear anything good or bad about the Thor 408ct? That is another bad ass ELR rifle!
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing! </div></div>
Ok, so now you're a fly in the web... I'm totally new to the 375CT experience.... I have one, I own one and, I've only shot the first of several bullets that are bad ass. I went out last weekend and shot it only a few times.. we were at a deer lease with my bud Darryl shooting from a platform that was a deer stand that was taken down and the floor was still there LOL. I was the only one...etc. that would want to shoot more than 200yds etc. but, they freaked when we put a target at 1830yds ( GPS + rangefinder ) ( cuz that was the distance to the place we could put a target on a bush ) I didn't have long range dope for it.. so I took a fucking wild ass guess at the 1050yd 10" plate... guessed at 20moa from the 100yd zero... BOOM.... exactly 1moa high.... shit... I'm thinking.... saw it in the scope... dialed down 1moa... centered it like a fucknig pinwheel.... Darryl shoot his 600yd steel for a while with the AR...I'm fucking with the ballistics software... so... I figure hastily ... ok we're at 1830 with the other target... ok, let's try 45moa from a 100yd zero........... BOOM, .... got him in the ear... come down .5 moa ... chest shot after chest shot after chest shot... simple...
My camera is MIA but, Darrel got a couple... He was on the 4 wheeler and sat off about 100yds from the target behind cover because you can not see a miss at 1830 when the bullets are impatcing the grass with no berm.. ( I have a NF NSX on it now but, I'm having a custom rail set up for my USO SN-9 right now ) I shot one then he said... "LEFT", I shot the next and got him in the ear... the next was .5 down and got him where you see that and, he brough the 4 wheeler back and, we lost the rest of the pics. ( he took these two with his iphone )
I wish I had photo skills but, the target was at the VERY back treeline where the big rifle is pointed... you just have to use the imagination.
That little cliff we were on is awesome.... We're going back in a couple of weeks... I'm going to set up and dusk and dawn and see how far I can pop the coyotes and or pigs when they're moving out in that field as far as you can see them. In the picture below, the first close in tree line is right at 600yds... the road with the turn in it... at the turn is about 1000yds per my rangfinder.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So now I have to decide if I want to get an AI AWSM or AX338 or have a 375CT built!
I really want another AI as I love my AW260 but the ballistics of the 375 are amazing! </div></div>
Ok, so now you're a fly in the web... I'm totally new to the 375CT experience.... I have one, I own one and, I've only shot the first of several bullets that are bad ass. I went out last weekend and shot it only a few times.. we were at a deer lease with my bud Darryl shooting from a platform that was a deer stand that was taken down and the floor was still there LOL. I was the only one...etc. that would want to shoot more than 200yds etc. but, they freaked when we put a target at 1830yds ( GPS + rangefinder ) ( cuz that was the distance to the place we could put a target on a bush ) I didn't have long range dope for it.. so I took a fucking wild ass guess at the 1050yd 10" plate... guessed at 20moa from the 100yd zero... BOOM.... exactly 1moa high.... shit... I'm thinking.... saw it in the scope... dialed down 1moa... centered it like a fucknig pinwheel.... Darryl shoot his 600yd steel for a while with the AR...I'm fucking with the ballistics software... so... I figure hastily ... ok we're at 1830 with the other target... ok, let's try 45moa from a 100yd zero........... BOOM, .... got him in the ear... come down .5 moa ... chest shot after chest shot after chest shot... simple...
My camera is MIA but, Darrel got a couple... He was on the 4 wheeler and sat off about 100yds from the target behind cover because you can not see a miss at 1830 when the bullets are impatcing the grass with no berm.. ( I have a NF NSX on it now but, I'm having a custom rail set up for my USO SN-9 right now ) I shot one then he said... "LEFT", I shot the next and got him in the ear... the next was .5 down and got him where you see that and, he brough the 4 wheeler back and, we lost the rest of the pics. ( he took these two with his iphone )
I wish I had photo skills but, the target was at the VERY back treeline where the big rifle is pointed... you just have to use the imagination.
That little cliff we were on is awesome.... We're going back in a couple of weeks... I'm going to set up and dusk and dawn and see how far I can pop the coyotes and or pigs when they're moving out in that field as far as you can see them. In the picture below, the first close in tree line is right at 600yds... the road with the turn in it... at the turn is about 1000yds per my rangfinder.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole. </div></div>
I'd agree with that statment, even as a 375 owner. If portability is up at the top of your list of usability then, the 338 has to be at the top of the list and it is as you say. It's light compared... you can still shoulder it and shoot it offhand easily, it still goes out pretty damned far. I see why the military loves them. When you move up from the weight of the 338, the rifle becomes something else completely.
If however, the game is ELR, you're shooting off a bipod and LONG range repeatability are the game, the CT is very hard to beat.... the 375 most of all. Mine is heavy but, it's not heavy like a 50 is heavy but, I'd not want to put one in a drag bag and pull it through the woods in a skull drag. Five or six pounds added to your 338 makes it a tough sell for our boys.
I'd bet many would love to have a CT on the side of a mountain in Afganistan, however. I doubt most shots require a rifle to reach 2800yds at sea level.... most are probably 500-1000yds well in range of even a 308win and out of range of an AK47.
The thing about the 375... I used to frequently take the 300wm out and put up a 2" clay pigeon on the berm and cold bore shoot it at 500yds... the ballistics of the 300wm make that a repeatable shot... really pretty easily, even cold bore.
This thing is like that except much, much further.... Haven't done it enough yet but, I imagine a 10" plate at 1500 would be the same sort of shot with this rifle.
Guess I'm going to have to unass a shit ton of cash on the vectronix soon now.... it never ends, does it?!?!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole. </div></div>
I'd agree with that statment, even as a 375 owner. If portability is up at the top of your list of usability then, the 338 has to be at the top of the list and it is as you say. It's light compared... you can still shoulder it and shoot it offhand easily, it still goes out pretty damned far. I see why the military loves them. When you move up from the weight of the 338, the rifle becomes something else completely.
If however, the game is ELR, you're shooting off a bipod and LONG range repeatability are the game, the CT is very hard to beat.... the 375 most of all. Mine is heavy but, it's not heavy like a 50 is heavy but, I'd not want to put one in a drag bag and pull it through the woods in a skull drag. Five or six pounds added to your 338 makes it a tough sell for our boys.
I'd bet many would love to have a CT on the side of a mountain in Afganistan, however. I doubt most shots require a rifle to reach 2800yds at sea level.... most are probably 500-1000yds well in range of even a 308win and out of range of an AK47.
The thing about the 375... I used to frequently take the 300wm out and put up a 2" clay pigeon on the berm and cold bore shoot it at 500yds... the ballistics of the 300wm make that a repeatable shot... really pretty easily, even cold bore.
This thing is like that except much, much further.... Haven't done it enough yet but, I imagine a 10" plate at 1500 would be the same sort of shot with this rifle.
Guess I'm going to have to unass a shit ton of cash on the vectronix soon now.... it never ends, does it?!?!
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole. </div></div>
Dark Horse,
He did not clarify why he loves his NM so much better especially on Tuesday. With that said, there is only one proven real advantage the NM has over the LM and that is barrel life. Rebarreling is 800 rounds more in favor of the NM. The LM is still better all around in my book especially since you can buy ammo for it just about anywhere.
I'm not a fan of either to be honest. If I am going to spend $5 bills for each shot I might as well spend a few more dollars and go with top of the line and shoot a .375 preferably the CTI.
Respect,
-Sv
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take the 338NM over the LM any day and twice on Tuesday. For the same reasons is choose 7mm SAUM over WSM. </div></div>
Prove to me that the Norma Mag far outclasses the Lapua and maybe I'll start losing sleep over it. Subtle performance differences aren't scaring any military's into a changing over to the Norma so I doubt there will be any sleepless nights in my future.
The game-changers are the 375's and 408's at the cost of weight, expense and availability. And beyond 2000 yards what are the chances of a first rd hit no matter what caliber you're shooting given all the variables involved?
For general purpose long range the 338 Lapua has more going for it then anything else on the block when you factor the big picture as a whole. </div></div>
Dark Horse,
He did not clarify why he loves his NM so much better especially on Tuesday. With that said, there is only one proven real advantage the NM has over the LM and that is barrel life. Rebarreling is 800 rounds more in favor of the NM. The LM is still better all around in my book especially since you can buy ammo for it just about anywhere.
I'm not a fan of either to be honest. If I am going to spend $5 bills for each shot I might as well spend a few more dollars and go with top of the line and shoot a .375 preferably the CTI.
Respect,
-Sv
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
The CT is expensive to shoot. It isn't horrible though.
1.80 / piece of brass... divide that by maybe 7 shots = .25
you won't load 140gr but, lets say you do and powder is 25.00/lb so, 50 rounds/lb of powder so .50 / round for powder
.03 on a primer
so, before the bullet you have .78
LeHigh 330gr boreriders are 1.30ea
So, you're at 2.08/bang with those bullets... you can add a dollar/round for more specialty bullets and be around 3.00/bang for some of those. I think the real cost difference comes in when you rebarrel. The 375 barrels will be more expensive and, I don't yet know how many rounds this barrel will do accurately but, I do know I'm not going to be shooting long shot strings with this thing.
I think lots of folks think it's even more expensive than it actually is but, you have to roll your own... there's not doubt about that.
So, it's really not out of reach for most folks to shoot, IMHO. It's a specialty type rifle, it's not my only rifle... hell, it's not even my only long range rifle. There have been no flies on my 300wm.
The CT is expensive to shoot. It isn't horrible though.
1.80 / piece of brass... divide that by maybe 7 shots = .25
you won't load 140gr but, lets say you do and powder is 25.00/lb so, 50 rounds/lb of powder so .50 / round for powder
.03 on a primer
so, before the bullet you have .78
LeHigh 330gr boreriders are 1.30ea
So, you're at 2.08/bang with those bullets... you can add a dollar/round for more specialty bullets and be around 3.00/bang for some of those. I think the real cost difference comes in when you rebarrel. The 375 barrels will be more expensive and, I don't yet know how many rounds this barrel will do accurately but, I do know I'm not going to be shooting long shot strings with this thing.
I think lots of folks think it's even more expensive than it actually is but, you have to roll your own... there's not doubt about that.
So, it's really not out of reach for most folks to shoot, IMHO. It's a specialty type rifle, it's not my only rifle... hell, it's not even my only long range rifle. There have been no flies on my 300wm.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist.
Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I'm shooting 375 gr. Rocky Mountain bullets out of my CT and the company claims that I only need 1:11 twist to stabilize them. I'm still working up my load but soon......
I'm shooting 375 gr. Rocky Mountain bullets out of my CT and the company claims that I only need 1:11 twist to stabilize them. I'm still working up my load but soon......
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist. </div></div>
Howdy, Steve!
Um, they went 1830 without any issues and seem to shoot accurately so far but, I need to back up further to know the whole story, I suppose.
I'm curious how hot you were loading them? I have them at 133gr of retumbo which puts them at about 3190fps at .010 freebore at .4.443 oal ... I suppose I could find a higher accuracy node but, I don't see the need to push this out to it's very last accuracy node.
I can't wait to shoot all the specialty bullets my barrel will allow for figuring out this beast but, I'm currently in the middle of a move out to the country and time is very limited right now. Probably won't have much time for the next month... then, I'll have to set up my reloading room.... I'm currently waiting for that custom scope rail to put the USO SN-9 on top... waiting on my 300wm to get it's new barrel and even building another 1911 custom....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist. </div></div>
Howdy, Steve!
Um, they went 1830 without any issues and seem to shoot accurately so far but, I need to back up further to know the whole story, I suppose.
I'm curious how hot you were loading them? I have them at 133gr of retumbo which puts them at about 3190fps at .010 freebore at .4.443 oal ... I suppose I could find a higher accuracy node but, I don't see the need to push this out to it's very last accuracy node.
I can't wait to shoot all the specialty bullets my barrel will allow for figuring out this beast but, I'm currently in the middle of a move out to the country and time is very limited right now. Probably won't have much time for the next month... then, I'll have to set up my reloading room.... I'm currently waiting for that custom scope rail to put the USO SN-9 on top... waiting on my 300wm to get it's new barrel and even building another 1911 custom....
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone hear anything good or bad about the Thor 408ct? That is another bad ass ELR rifle! </div></div>
I think when it comes down to it, it's a lawton action with a kreiger barrel, correct? Of course it has a lot of goodies with it but, Jeeze 23,000 dollars and you still have to buy a scope?
Of course, it does have one of these: http://www.horusvision.com/sord.php
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GUNENTHUSIAST</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone hear anything good or bad about the Thor 408ct? That is another bad ass ELR rifle! </div></div>
I think when it comes down to it, it's a lawton action with a kreiger barrel, correct? Of course it has a lot of goodies with it but, Jeeze 23,000 dollars and you still have to buy a scope?
Of course, it does have one of these: http://www.horusvision.com/sord.php
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I will throw in my .02. I have the 338/408 snipetac made by lawton machine before they went out of business (BTW I will never do business with them again: I had a bad experience with them).
The brass is expensive but if treated right you can get several reloads out of them. The round is amazingly accurate. If you shoot the Leigh or Boretech 245gr solids you can get up to 3700fps with those suckers and they will go past 3k yards before going subsonic. I have shot mine as far as 2563yards and it shoots better than my .50 at that distance. It also has alot of energy downrange. I shot at a 3/8 mild steel plate at 1250 yards with my 338 lapua and only made small dents. When I shot it with the snipetac and the same bullet loaded in the lapua (Sierra 300gr SMK) I was punching holes thru it.
The gun is awesome, I have only shot a little over 100 rounds thru it so I don't know about barrel life (I had it nitrided to extend it). It is also pretty heavy around 28lbs. Overall I am very happy with it but we will see how it fares with more rounds thru it.
This
I will throw in my .02. I have the 338/408 snipetac made by lawton machine before they went out of business (BTW I will never do business with them again: I had a bad experience with them).
The brass is expensive but if treated right you can get several reloads out of them. The round is amazingly accurate. If you shoot the Leigh or Boretech 245gr solids you can get up to 3700fps with those suckers and they will go past 3k yards before going subsonic. I have shot mine as far as 2563yards and it shoots better than my .50 at that distance. It also has alot of energy downrange. I shot at a 3/8 mild steel plate at 1250 yards with my 338 lapua and only made small dents. When I shot it with the snipetac and the same bullet loaded in the lapua (Sierra 300gr SMK) I was punching holes thru it.
The gun is awesome, I have only shot a little over 100 rounds thru it so I don't know about barrel life (I had it nitrided to extend it). It is also pretty heavy around 28lbs. Overall I am very happy with it but we will see how it fares with more rounds thru it.
This
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist. </div></div>
Howdy, Steve!
Um, they went 1830 without any issues and seem to shoot accurately so far but, I need to back up further to know the whole story, I suppose.
I'm curious how hot you were loading them? I have them at 133gr of retumbo which puts them at about 3190fps at .010 freebore at .4.443 oal ... I suppose I could find a higher accuracy node but, I don't see the need to push this out to it's very last accuracy node.
I can't wait to shoot all the specialty bullets my barrel will allow for figuring out this beast but, I'm currently in the middle of a move out to the country and time is very limited right now. Probably won't have much time for the next month... then, I'll have to set up my reloading room.... I'm currently waiting for that custom scope rail to put the USO SN-9 on top... waiting on my 300wm to get it's new barrel and even building another 1911 custom.... </div></div>
They were going about 3220 fps. I got them all the way up to 3300 but the accuracy suffered. Let us know how they do when you shoot farther. Moving sucks. I hope you enjoy the new place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey jwoolf,
I'm curios to hear how those Lehigh's do past a mile in your rifle. They weren't working well for me past a mile. Granted my 375CT had a 11.5 twist which isn't the suggested twist for the Lehigh's and I think your's is a 10 twist. </div></div>
Howdy, Steve!
Um, they went 1830 without any issues and seem to shoot accurately so far but, I need to back up further to know the whole story, I suppose.
I'm curious how hot you were loading them? I have them at 133gr of retumbo which puts them at about 3190fps at .010 freebore at .4.443 oal ... I suppose I could find a higher accuracy node but, I don't see the need to push this out to it's very last accuracy node.
I can't wait to shoot all the specialty bullets my barrel will allow for figuring out this beast but, I'm currently in the middle of a move out to the country and time is very limited right now. Probably won't have much time for the next month... then, I'll have to set up my reloading room.... I'm currently waiting for that custom scope rail to put the USO SN-9 on top... waiting on my 300wm to get it's new barrel and even building another 1911 custom.... </div></div>
They were going about 3220 fps. I got them all the way up to 3300 but the accuracy suffered. Let us know how they do when you shoot farther. Moving sucks. I hope you enjoy the new place.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
having shot a fair amount out to a mile with a 338LM and to 1200 with a 308, I'd say only three things matter to your choice of an ELR platform:
1) wind bucking
2) wind bucking
3) wind bucking
As anyone who's shot out to a mile over time will tell you, especially in canyon situations, your bullet will fly to the left and right of your target by as much as 2-3 MILs. Makes mile long shooting sort of a crap shoot really. I've had great days and then crappy days with same exact ammo/rifle/location. The only diff was atmospheric conditions, mostly wind.
I would suspect the 375 CT can buck wind better than the 338LM, but that just means it will blow around less, but you'll still miss an 18" wide target way more than you will hit it, overall. It's like blackjack... I'll have a run of 4 of 5 hits, then 1 of 5 hits... canyon winds are mercurial.
having shot a fair amount out to a mile with a 338LM and to 1200 with a 308, I'd say only three things matter to your choice of an ELR platform:
1) wind bucking
2) wind bucking
3) wind bucking
As anyone who's shot out to a mile over time will tell you, especially in canyon situations, your bullet will fly to the left and right of your target by as much as 2-3 MILs. Makes mile long shooting sort of a crap shoot really. I've had great days and then crappy days with same exact ammo/rifle/location. The only diff was atmospheric conditions, mostly wind.
I would suspect the 375 CT can buck wind better than the 338LM, but that just means it will blow around less, but you'll still miss an 18" wide target way more than you will hit it, overall. It's like blackjack... I'll have a run of 4 of 5 hits, then 1 of 5 hits... canyon winds are mercurial.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
The 338/408 can be built around 13 lbs or so and still be nice to shoot. I have one, it is my go to rifle if I want to make first Rd hits at extended range. Cases,bullets and primers are comparable in cost with the Lapua. Powder will cost more. I've had the standard version and the Snipe-Tac and I like the standard 338/408.
The 338/408 can be built around 13 lbs or so and still be nice to shoot. I have one, it is my go to rifle if I want to make first Rd hits at extended range. Cases,bullets and primers are comparable in cost with the Lapua. Powder will cost more. I've had the standard version and the Snipe-Tac and I like the standard 338/408.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I've thought about the nitride process too. How long does it take? and, Did you nitride it new or did you shoot a few through it first?
Jeeze, 3k+ and 3700fps!!!!
guess there's another option for a re-barrel... I imagine the nitride process would be necessary though... 3700fps!!!!
I don't know alot about it but isn't one of the guys doing this calling it a, "melonite" process that hardens the barrel? ( I know it's the nitride process that does it and, it's a common tool hardening process ) I'd also wonder if you risk accuracy in the process if the barrel is heated to achieve the hardening? ( just thinking out loud, I have no idea )
I've thought about the nitride process too. How long does it take? and, Did you nitride it new or did you shoot a few through it first?
Jeeze, 3k+ and 3700fps!!!!
guess there's another option for a re-barrel... I imagine the nitride process would be necessary though... 3700fps!!!!
I don't know alot about it but isn't one of the guys doing this calling it a, "melonite" process that hardens the barrel? ( I know it's the nitride process that does it and, it's a common tool hardening process ) I'd also wonder if you risk accuracy in the process if the barrel is heated to achieve the hardening? ( just thinking out loud, I have no idea )
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Augustus,
What kind of projectiles and load are you running in your 338/408?
I have both a 375 CT Improved built on a 408 CT case with a Lawton action as well as a 338LM. Both great guns and both shooters, but frankly I went with too heavy a barrel profile on the 375 and it weighs more than it needed to. I have been thinking about a re-barrel/re-chamber and the 338/408 sounds interesting, especially if I can get it under 15 lbs.
It will be something like this or a subsonic/suppressed 50 using a 960gr bullet using a shortened 408 case. Very different concepts but I am still considering options.
Augustus,
What kind of projectiles and load are you running in your 338/408?
I have both a 375 CT Improved built on a 408 CT case with a Lawton action as well as a 338LM. Both great guns and both shooters, but frankly I went with too heavy a barrel profile on the 375 and it weighs more than it needed to. I have been thinking about a re-barrel/re-chamber and the 338/408 sounds interesting, especially if I can get it under 15 lbs.
It will be something like this or a subsonic/suppressed 50 using a 960gr bullet using a shortened 408 case. Very different concepts but I am still considering options.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
300 SMKs, they shoot so good out of it I haven't tried anything else. The rifle is built on a Lawton 8500 with a Sendero taper Lawton barrel 30 inches in length. Stock is a Mcmillian A3/5. USO 3-17 T-Pal the outfit weighs around 15.5 lbs.
300 SMKs, they shoot so good out of it I haven't tried anything else. The rifle is built on a Lawton 8500 with a Sendero taper Lawton barrel 30 inches in length. Stock is a Mcmillian A3/5. USO 3-17 T-Pal the outfit weighs around 15.5 lbs.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Thanks for the info Augustus.
Thanks for the info Augustus.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I am pushing 300 grain Bergers at 2950.
I am pushing 300 grain Bergers at 2950.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Lazzeroni caliber 8.59 (.338) Titan is a couple hundred fps faster than the 338 Lapua (at the same 66,900 PSI pressure), and does not suffer from the belt and rebated rim of the 338/378 WBY ,,,,,
Lazzeroni caliber 8.59 (.338) Titan is a couple hundred fps faster than the 338 Lapua (at the same 66,900 PSI pressure), and does not suffer from the belt and rebated rim of the 338/378 WBY ,,,,,
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
I just had a 375 CT built with a 26 in barrel. Reworked the taper to bring the weight down below 16 lbs with a scope. 1/2 moa with the first 6 rounds fired. 2100 yards to subsonic. The rifle suprised me. It is in the relm of a heavy hunting rifle, but with a 350 grain bullet. its going to hit very hard. I hope this helps.
I just had a 375 CT built with a 26 in barrel. Reworked the taper to bring the weight down below 16 lbs with a scope. 1/2 moa with the first 6 rounds fired. 2100 yards to subsonic. The rifle suprised me. It is in the relm of a heavy hunting rifle, but with a 350 grain bullet. its going to hit very hard. I hope this helps.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
All,
This is my latest .338 build, have only shot it out to 1250yds so have not really tested at ELR. Started with the 250 lock base as we based the build off the Viav.. "accuracy load" and was inpressed, then picked up the 300gn Berger Hybrid and did a 500yd ladder. Super super accuarcy at 500yd with almost a perfect vertical "water" line in changing conditions of 6 - 10 mph.
Then shot some 18" steel at 1250 and was sold on the 300's.
putting a USO H25 Horus set up on it this week and plan to take out to 2000 yds and will follow up.
rifle info:
Mcree LA chassis A+
R700 Trued and Blueprinted jeweled bolt
28.5" Krieger 1:9.35" w/ Badger Brake
Timney Target BR trigger set at 8oz
Sinclair Tactical bipod, awesome but have snug screws occ.
Vortex 5 x 20 HD w/ EBR 2 reticule [ wish the cross hair intersected instead of .07 gap]
All,
This is my latest .338 build, have only shot it out to 1250yds so have not really tested at ELR. Started with the 250 lock base as we based the build off the Viav.. "accuracy load" and was inpressed, then picked up the 300gn Berger Hybrid and did a 500yd ladder. Super super accuarcy at 500yd with almost a perfect vertical "water" line in changing conditions of 6 - 10 mph.
Then shot some 18" steel at 1250 and was sold on the 300's.
putting a USO H25 Horus set up on it this week and plan to take out to 2000 yds and will follow up.
rifle info:
Mcree LA chassis A+
R700 Trued and Blueprinted jeweled bolt
28.5" Krieger 1:9.35" w/ Badger Brake
Timney Target BR trigger set at 8oz
Sinclair Tactical bipod, awesome but have snug screws occ.
Vortex 5 x 20 HD w/ EBR 2 reticule [ wish the cross hair intersected instead of .07 gap]
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.338LM is well balanced with velocity/mass and has both rifle and ammo components available in volume. That said, it really starts to reach its limits at 2000 yards. The Cheytac-based cartridges increase the mass with the same or faster velocities. Combine that with high BC solids and they start to reach their limits farther out than .338LM. For example:
Common .338LM loads
250gr Scenar @ 2950fps
300gr Scenar @ 2750fps
Common .408CT load
419gr solid @ 2900fps
Common .375CT loads
350gr solid @ 3250fps
350gr SMK @ 3100fps
When you plug those numbers into JBM you will see the performance difference. A common gage is "supersonic range" and that's where the .375CT has been king, often staying supersonic to 2800 yards.
Now, unlike the .338LM, rifle and especially ammo components are harder to find. On top of that, the Cheytac cases require a boltface size that's inbetween .338LM and .50BMG, so you are less likely to see Cheytac conversions of .338LM platforms and more likely to see them from .50BMG platforms.
</div></div>
Steve,
We have built the .338 I pic'd and have some great performance that pushes a bit faster
Using factory Lapua 250 scenar out of this chamber and barrel we are getting 3220 FPS with an SD of about 15 with no pressure signs and not having to trim brass at 3 loads.
Kinda freaked us out at first and we reset the chrony, changed the battery and tested it with a .45 acp lol.. still got same data so we figure were good?
With Lapua brass and the 300gn scenars we are getting consistent 2965 FPS with an SD of about 12 [ a little bit of spread but the ladder groups were great?]
I would guess / imagine that the factory Lapua Scenars are running VihtaVouri and the above 300gn velocities we have gotten are using N570 and only at 87.9gn [case full at 91.5]. still no pressure signs, Primers aren't punched or cratered, no bolt lift issues, very minimal ejector marks (have seen these marks on almost every LM round etc] no exaggerated case expansion or lengthening either, at 4 loads and have not had to trim yet?
Even under rapid fire with 10 + rds in 2 - 3 minutes the cases barely heat up etc?
Just my experience, I think a lot of it depends on the chamber specs and barrel set up. We use a custom reamer builder for each project, a bit costly and a hit to the patience meter, but the performance makes it all worth it when we test and get these types of results.
Been thinking of a .375, but am probably going to build a .300 Lapua Magnum and try to push the 230 gn Bergers out around 3500fps, but I spoke with Berger and they have only tested this projectile at 2950 fps, so I need to wait and hear from Brian before we build the rifle. Do have the reamer being built if anyone wants one though!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.338LM is well balanced with velocity/mass and has both rifle and ammo components available in volume. That said, it really starts to reach its limits at 2000 yards. The Cheytac-based cartridges increase the mass with the same or faster velocities. Combine that with high BC solids and they start to reach their limits farther out than .338LM. For example:
Common .338LM loads
250gr Scenar @ 2950fps
300gr Scenar @ 2750fps
Common .408CT load
419gr solid @ 2900fps
Common .375CT loads
350gr solid @ 3250fps
350gr SMK @ 3100fps
When you plug those numbers into JBM you will see the performance difference. A common gage is "supersonic range" and that's where the .375CT has been king, often staying supersonic to 2800 yards.
Now, unlike the .338LM, rifle and especially ammo components are harder to find. On top of that, the Cheytac cases require a boltface size that's inbetween .338LM and .50BMG, so you are less likely to see Cheytac conversions of .338LM platforms and more likely to see them from .50BMG platforms.
</div></div>
Steve,
We have built the .338 I pic'd and have some great performance that pushes a bit faster
Using factory Lapua 250 scenar out of this chamber and barrel we are getting 3220 FPS with an SD of about 15 with no pressure signs and not having to trim brass at 3 loads.
Kinda freaked us out at first and we reset the chrony, changed the battery and tested it with a .45 acp lol.. still got same data so we figure were good?
With Lapua brass and the 300gn scenars we are getting consistent 2965 FPS with an SD of about 12 [ a little bit of spread but the ladder groups were great?]
I would guess / imagine that the factory Lapua Scenars are running VihtaVouri and the above 300gn velocities we have gotten are using N570 and only at 87.9gn [case full at 91.5]. still no pressure signs, Primers aren't punched or cratered, no bolt lift issues, very minimal ejector marks (have seen these marks on almost every LM round etc] no exaggerated case expansion or lengthening either, at 4 loads and have not had to trim yet?
Even under rapid fire with 10 + rds in 2 - 3 minutes the cases barely heat up etc?
Just my experience, I think a lot of it depends on the chamber specs and barrel set up. We use a custom reamer builder for each project, a bit costly and a hit to the patience meter, but the performance makes it all worth it when we test and get these types of results.
Been thinking of a .375, but am probably going to build a .300 Lapua Magnum and try to push the 230 gn Bergers out around 3500fps, but I spoke with Berger and they have only tested this projectile at 2950 fps, so I need to wait and hear from Brian before we build the rifle. Do have the reamer being built if anyone wants one though!!!
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Hey LazzInc, If Lazzeroni brass was higher quality, knowing that everybody who shoots the 338 Lapua wants it to go faster, and since the Titan duplicates the 338 Lapua improved, you would have something going in the tactical world. I personally know people who have purchased Lazz brass and primer pockets were big out of the box, and just by seating bullets the necked cracked. We weighed them out on digital scales and they varied as much as 12grs. How can that be accurate? You could have one of America`s top 338 cartridges if the brass was better.
Hey LazzInc, If Lazzeroni brass was higher quality, knowing that everybody who shoots the 338 Lapua wants it to go faster, and since the Titan duplicates the 338 Lapua improved, you would have something going in the tactical world. I personally know people who have purchased Lazz brass and primer pockets were big out of the box, and just by seating bullets the necked cracked. We weighed them out on digital scales and they varied as much as 12grs. How can that be accurate? You could have one of America`s top 338 cartridges if the brass was better.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
excaliber ,,,,,
I do not have those kinds of problems with Lazzeroni brass cases and we load tens of thousands of them every year ,,,,
the current lot of Lazzeroni brass cases were built by Steve Hornady and they are some of the best around ,,,,,
as for primer pockets, I am sure by now that someone with your expertise has learned that if the pockets are sized for the larger diameter Fed 215's, if you switch to a CCI or Win primer, they are smaller and will not seat the same ,,,, right ?
excaliber ,,,,,
I do not have those kinds of problems with Lazzeroni brass cases and we load tens of thousands of them every year ,,,,
the current lot of Lazzeroni brass cases were built by Steve Hornady and they are some of the best around ,,,,,
as for primer pockets, I am sure by now that someone with your expertise has learned that if the pockets are sized for the larger diameter Fed 215's, if you switch to a CCI or Win primer, they are smaller and will not seat the same ,,,, right ?
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
Lazz,
I have always used Fed 215 for any big magnum. I`m only stating the facts. I purchased close to 100pcs over the last 2 years, last few boxes was purchased last fall and out of box, using Fed 215 primers,just by tapping on case lightly, the primer would almost fall out. I called Lazz to tell about the problem and the only response I got was "your loading them too hot". That was brand new brass out of the box. You build very nice rifles but the brass is not high quality. I have some friends that had some custom Lazz caliber (Warbird and Titan) rifles but have since rechambered to something different because of brass issues. Haven`t you noticed that if the Titan brass was better that it might be more widely chosen over the 338 Lapua? We both know it beats the 338 Lapua and speed sells but unless the quality of brass is fixed, then my vote is for the 338 LAPUA.
Lazz,
I have always used Fed 215 for any big magnum. I`m only stating the facts. I purchased close to 100pcs over the last 2 years, last few boxes was purchased last fall and out of box, using Fed 215 primers,just by tapping on case lightly, the primer would almost fall out. I called Lazz to tell about the problem and the only response I got was "your loading them too hot". That was brand new brass out of the box. You build very nice rifles but the brass is not high quality. I have some friends that had some custom Lazz caliber (Warbird and Titan) rifles but have since rechambered to something different because of brass issues. Haven`t you noticed that if the Titan brass was better that it might be more widely chosen over the 338 Lapua? We both know it beats the 338 Lapua and speed sells but unless the quality of brass is fixed, then my vote is for the 338 LAPUA.
Re: Is there a much better ELR round than the 338LM?
excaliber ,,,,,
I do not have those kinds of problems with Lazzeroni brass cases and we load tens of thousands of them every year ,,,,
the current lot of Lazzeroni brass cases were built by Steve Hornady and they are some of the best around ,,,,,
as for primer pockets, I am sure by now that someone with your expertise has learned that if the pockets are sized for the larger diameter Fed 215's, if you switch to a CCI or Win primer, they are smaller and will not seat the same ,,,, right ?
excaliber ,,,,,
I do not have those kinds of problems with Lazzeroni brass cases and we load tens of thousands of them every year ,,,,
the current lot of Lazzeroni brass cases were built by Steve Hornady and they are some of the best around ,,,,,
as for primer pockets, I am sure by now that someone with your expertise has learned that if the pockets are sized for the larger diameter Fed 215's, if you switch to a CCI or Win primer, they are smaller and will not seat the same ,,,, right ?
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