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Difficult shot?

lenbrazil

Private
Minuteman
May 11, 2012
10
0
58
Brazil
Though I think some people might have given him money I have little doubt that James Earl Ray shot Martin Luther King Jr. Some people allege that the shot would have too difficult for him. I know little about shooting myself so I would be interested in hearing from people who know more about this than I do.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">THE SHOOTER & THE GUN</span></span>

Ray served in the US Army March 1946 – December 1948. A few sources indicated he only rated ‘marksman’ which despite its name is the Army’s lowest marksmanship rating. Though he committed various armed robberies with handguns, I have seen no mention of him handling let alone shooting a rifle again till he bought a .243 Winchester with a 2x – 7x Redfield scope and a box of 20 cartridges on March 29, 1968. He had spent 13 of the last 20 years in various prisons and a customer in the store told the FBI ‘it was apparent…in watching this man [Ray] that he did know anything about rifles’ another customer told them same This was only six days before King was assassinated. The next day he exchanged the Winchester for a Remington Gamemaster 760 30.06 and a box of 30.06 Remington Peters ammo. The store mounted the same sight. The FBI determined the Winchester had not been fired.

I do not know of any direct evidence Ray shot the Remington before King was slain, but he left the store with a box of 20 cartridges and police only found 11 among his belongings. However 4 -5 of them did not match the ones he bought with the rifle. There were, “a .30 caliber metal-jacketed "soft-point" sporting type Remington-Peters bullet, an expended .30-06 Springfield caliber Remington-Peters cartridge 'casing, and a Peters cartridge box…containing five unfired .30-06 Springfield caliber Remington-Peters cartridges and four unfired .30-06 Springfield caliber U. S. military cartridges containing full metal-jacketed bullets” so there is a deficit of 14 rounds perhaps more since it is my understand stores don’t normally sell single bullets so he might have purchased a box or two elsewhere. Since quite a bit of ammo was missing and not much is known about his whereabouts after he bought the rifle I would assume he did a fair amount of shooting.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">THE SHOT</span></span>

bathroomqv.jpg


Ray is believed to have shot King through the window of the bathroom pictured above by standing in the bathtub. It is believed that that he put one foot on the rim of the tub and rested the barrel of the 760 on the windowsill. According to the police report:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The level distance from the point from which the shot was fired to the point where Dr. King was standing is 206.36 feet. The distance, along the flight of the bullet from the point from which it was fired to the point where Dr. King was standing is 207.02 feet.

The window sill of the building from which the shot was fired, is 16.63 feet higher than a point 59 inches above the floor of the balcony on which Dr. King was standing when shot.</div></div>

“The inside of the window was 2 foot 8 inches [wide]…[and] had been raised 3 and 7/8th inches from the bottom sill.” The tub was about 2 feet from the wall with the window, “2 foot 6 inches wide” and its bottom was about 6 inches above the floor. The windowsill was “4 foot 11 inches” above the floor and thus about 4’ 5” above the bottom of the tub. Ray was 5’ 10” so he must have bent over or crouched down a few inches. I mentioned the size the tub and window because some have suggested this would not have given him enough room to maneuver.

Based on the police data the downward angle of the shot was 4.6*. Measuring a line from the bathroom window to point King was shot with a protractor (black line) I calculated the lateral angle to have been 98 - 99* or 8 – 9* off from being perpendicular to the sill.

mlkangleofshot3.jpg


So would the shot have been difficult for someone like Ray who had been a so-so shot in Army 20 years earlier and at best only started shooting a rifle again a few days earlier?

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">PS Moderators,</span></span> I don't consider this thread political because the only aspect of the assassination it touches upon is the supposed difficulty of the shot. - Len
 
Re: Difficult shot?

i believe he could do it, i mean hell i can hit the backside of a tenga egg from all the way down dingleberry street
 
Re: Difficult shot?

There was a study and reenactment of this shot done not too long ago on TV.
They took an experienced shooter and a non-experienced shooter and both were able to make the shot.

I wish I remembered more detail about the show as it would be pertinent maybe another hider saw it and has a better memory.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

Let see if I'm reading this right.

The distance (los or line of sight) was 207.02 @ 9 degrees.

Cosine of 9 degrees is .9877

207.02 X .9877 = 204.473

The difference in drop between the two (207 & 204) is less then 1/4 inch for a 150 grn 30 cal bullet @ 2700 fps.

Lets say the target is only 6 inches in diameter. If a guy could lean out the window he would only have to hold 6 MOA at 69 yards to make the shot.

I never studied the case, but based on the info provided, that's not much of a shot.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

au contraire. i have overseen sight in days at my local range and watched "deer hunters?" miss a paper dinner plate at 50 yards....multiple times from a bench with sandbags. it is an easy shot for a high percentage of those that read this site but for the general public i have my doubts.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> i mean hell i can hit the backside of a tenga egg </div></div>

I would hope so, I've only seen pictures but that's what two, maybe three whole inches? You wouldn't even have to dial to slip your bullet in especially since you're shooting at point blank range.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most any moron can make a 70 yard shot with a window sill to lean on, less than perfect position or not. </div></div>

^This. Seventy yards is nothing IF you are properly sighted in. I knew an idiot last deer season who missed a 30 yard shot on a buck with a 30-06 because his scope was loose. Silly shit like that makes people miss all the time.

But a novice is shooting a rifle that's properly set up and has been correctly sighted in, and he's shooting from a solid rest at 70 yards, he'll make that shot provided he's not slapping the trigger.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

Granted qualing at Marksman level isnt great but it does prove that Ray had some rifle training. You figure Ray has probably zeroed the rifle at 100 yards. He is probably leaning with his back against the side wall, and the rifle resting on the window sill. A pretty decent position, assuming a right-handed shooter.

The 70 yard shot would hit maybe a half inch low, which might be somewhat offset by the downward angle. Wind at 70 yards is pretty much irrelevant. A man-sized target should be a piece-of-cake. If he planned the shot at all, he could have stepped off the distance prior to the day, and then zeroed his rifle at 70 yards.

Excuse my ignorance but was MLK killed with a head or body shot? Even the head shot would not be diffcult.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

I've been in that bathroom the hardest part of that shot is taking up a position in the window. I tried to find a way to use my right shoulder but I was butted up against the corner. the only way I could of made it would to shoot left handed.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been in that bathroom the hardest part of that shot is taking up a position in the window. I tried to find a way to use my right shoulder but I was butted up against the corner. the only way I could of made it would to shoot left handed. </div></div>

Was he a right or left handed shooter?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excuse my ignorance but was MLK killed with a head or body shot? Even the head shot would not be diffcult. </div></div>

He caught a hot one in the head.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting 1st post...
</div></div> What I was thinking, but it sounds like the OP is either curious or possibly doing a research paper on the subject:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lenbrazil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know little about shooting myself so I would be interested in hearing from people who know more about this than I do.</div></div>
 
Re: Difficult shot?

Not sure. I never saw the guy shoot so I can't say whether or not he was any good. Beyond that, it's just speculation. I certainly hope someone that was in the Army could make such an easy shot.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

That rifle was boresighted by the seller. Anyone who can pull a trigger could have made that shot. The angle was such that even a miss of 6" up or down from the heart(dead on aim, or even up/down 3") the 30-06 would have made enough hydrostatic shock to kill whoever was shot. JE Ray wasn't even smart enough to set this thing up by himself, he was someone's stooge, and an easy target to manipulate into doing the crime
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">…was MLK killed with a head or body shot?
</div></div>

The bullet went entered the bottom of his jaw and lodged in the back of his neck. According to one witness, Rev. Billy Kyles, his necktie was cut, which I imagine would have been quite a feat for Ray IF it had been intentional.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JE Ray wasn't even smart enough to set this thing up by himself, he was someone's stooge, and an easy target to manipulate into doing the crime.</div></div>

He was pretty smart, his IQ was calculated to be above average, he did much of his legal work, escaped from 2 different maximum-security prisons, obtained a Canadian passport fraudulently and evaded the FBI’s biggest manhunt up to that time for several months. He played the role of a dumb yokel when it suited him, you can see it in some of his interviews, he is fairly articulate until he is asked a question he doesn’t want to answer. The hit was not that hard to set up he was lucky that there was a flophouse almost directly across from King’s room.

That said I would not be surprised if he was paid/offered money, Ray’s motive has never been established. He was racist but not any more so than millions of other white Americans at the time. Several white supremacist groups had put a bounty on King’s head. Nor is it known why he went south, to Atlanta, before fleeing north, to Toronto. Apparently Ray dumped his car a few blocks from the place of work of a leader of one such group, witnesses said the Klan leader got a phone call and went out for a few minutes that morning. Ray bought a Polaroid 1967, a camera release but no camera was found among his possessions.

Back to the issue of the bullets. Ray said he bought the rifle to serve as a sample in a gun deal. Larry Hancock co-author of a new book about the assassination wrote:

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Len, the quantity and type of bullets certainly raises several questions. Of course one would be in regard to Ray's explanation of why he bought the rifle in the first place - and that scenario doesn't support the need for much ammunition. On the other hand, a premeditated shooting with that sort of rifle doesn't really call for you bringing along all that ammo either....

However, equally interesting to us was something the FBI report really doesn't explore in much depth:

-- four unfired ".30-06 Springfield caliber U. S. military cartridges containing full metal-jacketed bullets”

We have attempted a bit of research based on the head stamp for that ammo, the goal being to determine when it was declared surplus and when it would have been put up for resale and through what outlets. So far we have not come up with satisfactory answers for that. Certainly the gun shop where Ray bought the rifle was adamant that they did not carry that sort of ammo.

Perhaps even more interesting is that the military shells had marks on them suggesting that they had originally been "belted" military ammo for automatic weapons - with the shells later removed from the belts . That raises all sorts of interesting speculation about the theft of military ammo from national guard armories....who was stealing that stuff and for what purpose.

In any event, how much target practice, or familiarization with a pump action rifle, that might have been done is actually only one ancillary question in regard to the recovered ammo</span></span>


If any of you are interested here is a piece I wrote about another aspect of the case.
http://lies-of-the-truth-movement.blogsp...o-mustangs.html
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lenbrazil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So would the shot have been difficult for someone like Ray who had been a so-so shot in Army 20 years earlier and at best only started shooting a rifle again a few days earlier?
</div></div>

Really. A 'bad shot' on a 'bad day' could easily make this shot as eloquently explained above. Whats more interesting is the poll results and whether it represents a decline in the intelligence of the SH community or something else.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

I am not trying to be insensitive, but it was not just any shot he made, it was a shot to the head, whether intended or not, that would have been a difficult shot for a novice with poor optics.

"The .30-caliber rifle bullet entered King's right cheek, traveled through his neck, and finally stopped at his shoulder blade."
 
Re: Difficult shot?

a 70yd shot is pretty easy like many have stated here. i can get a new shooter to be accurate enough for that shot in 10min of "training". most people could probably shoot a head sized target open sights with a little bit of practice, so any kind of optics is just gonna make it that much easier.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

I a shocked at the poll results. Anyone who has a basic understanding of shooting should be able to make a shot like that.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: goatsie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not trying to be insensitive, but it was not just any shot he made, it was a shot to the head, whether intended or not, that would have been a difficult shot for a novice with poor optics.</div></div>

Does a Redfield variable qualify as “poor optics”? According to the DoJ

“the FBI determined that the sight, on average, was only an insignificant three inches off to the right and less than an inch low when test-fired at 205 feet, the approximate distance between the rooming house and the Lorraine's balcony.”

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/mlk/part3.php

My guess is that he was aiming for the chest but was a bit high.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The .30-caliber rifle bullet entered King's right cheek, traveled through his neck, and finally stopped at his shoulder blade." </div></div>

I stand corrected. Here is an autopsy photo the circle indicates where the largest fragment was lodged

ordertokillmlk.32.jpg
 
Re: Difficult shot?

According to Judge Joe Brown (yeah the one from TV) who presided at Ray’s last appeal (till he was removed for bias) and was testifying as an ‘expert witness’ in a King family civil case


“he {Ray] supposedly rested this barrel on this window sill and pulled the trigger. Well, there is an unusual thing about this one. Being a slide-action, if you do that, nine times out of ten the slide is going to cycle itself before the pressure is dropped in the barrel, and what you'll get is a blown up or ruptured shell casing, which will be quite exciting when it happens. So this rifle, fortuitously is incapable of being used as they indicated in the proof that was in the record.”

Sounds like bunk to me, comments?
 
Re: Difficult shot?

9 times out of 10, the gun will malfunction? Is he saying that the particular gun was defective or that all pump rifles are prone to that?
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rookie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9 times out of 10, the gun will malfunction? Is he saying that the particular gun was defective or that all pump rifles are prone to that? </div></div>

No he was saying if you rest the barrel of a pump action rifle on a hard surface "nine times out of ten...you'll get is a blown up or ruptured shell casing."

I've only shot guns 3 or 4 times in my life, the last of which was about 35 years ago but it sounds like pure unadulterated horse manure to me.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

It's crap. Consider the source.

I don't own any slide action rifles but I own several pump shotguns. In no case would the Winchester 12, 1300, Mossberg 500, or Remington 870 be likely to malfunction merely due to resting either the barrel, or the sliding forearm, on a surface while firing.

The Remington Game Master 760, chambered for even higher powered cartridges than anything running in a pump shotgun, is a dependable and safe rifle.

Question: Which direction does the rifle travel in recoil? Answer: Back!

That said, even if one were to push the forearm against a window sill, as suggested by the cartoon character judge in question, it would not unlock the slide once the action is in battery!

Only the the ignition of the cartridge while out of battery would cause such a catastrophic incident, but this happens rarely, in many different types of firearms and is most often the fault of crappy ammo or the handiwork of hack/amateur gun smiths.

In the realm of facts, there are two ways to unlock the bolt of the 760, (Or 7600, or the pump shotguns listed above, among many other pump guns...)when it is in battery; 1) by pulling the trigger and 2) by pushing the slide release button.

While the former action will result in recoil when firing a chambered cartridge, in no case would the rifle be prone to exploding or malfunctioning merely by resting the barrel on anything. Point of impact would likely be different than when it is fired off hand, or rested properly, due to barrel harmonics being altered (in contact with a surface). Pump rifles are rarely known to be 1 MOA accurate anyway.

106_4068.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg


Here's a little background on one such model of this rifle.

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AKj02ACY7ao[/video]

The cynical "MLK Jr. industry" is pathetic in it's shameless self promotion of nonsensical conspiracies, profit driven hangers on and the utterances of inane, outright lies in furtherance of somehow tying together the courage of MLK jr. with the horrifying sloth, corruption and opulent lifestyles of today's race hustlers.

On another note, it is customary for new members to fill out their profile before posting here. Having some idea of who you are, while maintaining your privacy of course, gives the rest of us some idea of your participation and incentives.

And you might just find someone nearby who will help you get some trigger time!
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's crap. Consider the source.

I don't own any slide action rifles but I own several pump shotguns. In no case would the Winchester 12, 1300, Mossberg 500, or Remington 870 be likely to malfunction merely due to resting either the barrel, or the sliding forearm, on a surface while firing.</div></div>

That's what I assumed as a lay person, I didn't see any moving parts anywhere near the barrel of the 760 on YT videos. And I wondered how a barrel which has to be strong enough to withstand the forces of high powered bullets being fired through it could be affected by part or even all the weight of the weapon resting on a hard surface?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On another note, it is customary for new members to fill out their profile before posting here. Having some idea of who you are, while maintaining your privacy of course, gives the rest of us some idea of your participation and incentives.

And you might just find someone nearby who will help you get some trigger time! </div></div>

Point taken I filled it out, but doubt anyone can help me with that because I’m an ex-pat living in Brazil, that said there is a shooting club near me I'll probably give them a call this week.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

i personaly dont see the difficulty in this shot, what i do find interesting is a 30 cal round fired from a lil under 70 yds and going through very little bone or body mass not being a pass through. i have seen deer shot at similiar yardage with a similiar round not be a clean thru and thru, however there was shoulder bone and body mass that was more than the roughly 8-10" of human jaw bone and soft tissue to stop a bullet fired at this distance. even with soft lead bullets i dont think there would be enough resistance to stop the bullet from penetrating all of the way through. i am by no means a forensics expert or even a slight dabbler in the field. could the shot be made by ray? i certainly believe so, him or any other idiot with about 10 mins of training and a properly set up rifle.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

206 feet is roughly 70 yards. Most of us shoot at 100. My son shot 6 inch groups at 100 yards when he was seven. How hard could the shot be?
 
Re: Difficult shot?

The shot? Easy as pie, even a head shot. The real "unusual" problem here is the lack of penetration from a 30-06 at 70yards.
I am not a forensics expert and do not know the exact angles of impact here, but I have seen few 30-06 rounds fail to penetrate at least 12 inches of deer. It would appear the bullet should have exited from almost any angle offered in this particular situation.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The shot? Easy as pie, even a head shot. The real "unusual" problem here is the lack of penetration from a 30-06 at 70yards.
I am not a forensics expert and do not know the exact angles of impact here, but I have seen few 30-06 rounds fail to penetrate at least 12 inches of deer. It would appear the bullet should have exited from almost any angle offered in this particular situation. </div></div>

Exactly my thoughts, it leads me to believe that maybe it wasn't the 30-06 that killed him, the round should have easily gone through at that range, what could have caused that kind of penetration at that range?
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The shot? Easy as pie, even a head shot. The real "unusual" problem here is the lack of penetration from a 30-06 at 70yards.
I am not a forensics expert and do not know the exact angles of impact here, but I have seen few 30-06 rounds fail to penetrate at least 12 inches of deer. It would appear the bullet should have exited from almost any angle offered in this particular situation. </div></div>

Exactly my thoughts, it leads me to believe that maybe it wasn't the 30-06 that killed him, the round should have easily gone through at that range, what could have caused that kind of penetration at that range? </div></div>

Not even the conspiracy theorists who don't think Ray did it say this. A mangled 30.06 slug plus a few fragments were removed from below his shoulder. There were no other injuries.

I have no idea why but for some reason the bullet deflected sharply downward.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

at 70 yds, he could have used an old Marlin 30-30 & made a crap shot work. Most 12 Year olds shoot their first deer at longer distances.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lenbrazil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The shot? Easy as pie, even a head shot. The real "unusual" problem here is the lack of penetration from a 30-06 at 70yards.
I am not a forensics expert and do not know the exact angles of impact here, but I have seen few 30-06 rounds fail to penetrate at least 12 inches of deer. It would appear the bullet should have exited from almost any angle offered in this particular situation. </div></div>

Exactly my thoughts, it leads me to believe that maybe it wasn't the 30-06 that killed him, the round should have easily gone through at that range, what could have caused that kind of penetration at that range? </div></div>

Not even the conspiracy theorists who don't think Ray did it say this. A mangled 30.06 slug plus a few fragments were removed from below his shoulder. There were no other injuries.

I have no idea why but for some reason the bullet deflected sharply downward. </div></div>

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but even Dr King's wife said she did not think Ray did the deed.
What exactly proves that the bullet is a 30-06 ball as opposed to any other 30 caliber ball? I still say it is a big stretch to imagine a 30-06 at that range would not penetrate through and through.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am not a conspiracy theorist, but even Dr King's wife said she did not think Ray did the deed.
What exactly proves that the bullet is a 30-06 ball as opposed to any other 30 caliber ball? I still say it is a big stretch to imagine a 30-06 at that range would not penetrate through and through. </div></div>

Though too badly mangled to be positively matched to or excluded as being from Ray’s rifle, the slug was positively IDed as a .30-06 Remington-Peters (the type Ray bought w/ the rifle) and had the same general rifling characteristics as the Gamemaster 760. This has never been disputed by the various forensic experts (ballistic and medical), researchers, lawyers etc. etc. who investigated the case including the ones who asserted Ray was innocent. The question for the CTs is not IF King was shot with a .30-06 but rather WHICH one.
F12.jpg


The bullet did actually pass through several inches of body tissue before stopping under King’s shoulder; it seems to have been deflected downwards by the roof of his mouth. It might even have exited and reentered IIRC some witnesses said there was a hole in his neck. I’m not sure how much the bullet deflected, IIRC witnesses said he was leaning on the balcony railing speaking to people below rather than standing up straight
orraine-motel.jpg


Pardon my ignorance by why would other types of .30 have less penetrating power than a .30-06?

As for King’s family they have reason to be suspicious, the FBI spied on, harassed and played ‘dirty tricks’ on him and his organization, they even sent him a letter urging him to quit the SCLC or kill himself (depending on how you interpret it). Hoover hated King. I also imagine for the family it’s more satisfying (for lack of a better word) to believe he was a martyr to a complex conspiracy rather than the victim of a loser like Ray.
 
Re: Difficult shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is that, about 2 MOD? </div></div>

ROFLMAO