Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

[BenY 2013]

So I was just surfing this site and saw a post that got me thinking. It was saying how the .308 is out classed by some of the newer 6mm calibers. So is there any reason not to swap the barrel of my Savage .308 to the 6.5 Creedmoor round? The gun is mostly a long range target gun. But if I ever got the chance to go out west and hunt it would be my right with me. So how does the terminal performance compare between the calibers? Also ammo price that much of a difference? Thanks in advance!

If I do swap anyone looking to buy a lightly used Savage .308 barrel?

 

[The Punisher]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

went to the 260 Rem. and the 308 sits....less recoil, better bc, less drift....like shotting a 300 win mag with out all the recoil!

 

[Swift]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I own a 6.5, a 6mm and a couple 308s. The way I see it is the 6.5s are the Ferrari whereas the 308 is the Z06. The Ferrari will get you there faster(and with less drop in this case) but you pay for that performance at the ammo counter. It can also be more finicky than a 308 when reloading. I can dust off my Z06 anytime and put her to work for less money but still achieve more than adequate results.

6/6.5s are popular right now but it doesn't discredit the 7.62s performance at range. It's track record speaks for itself.

 

[Swift]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Punisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">went to the 260 Rem. and the 308 sits....less recoil, better bc, less drift....like shotting a 300 win mag with out all the recoil! </div></div>

To be fair, at extended long ranges the WM will blow the doors off any 260. At 1400 a 139 or 142 are gassed while the WM is just gettin warmed up.

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I'd like to stick with the 6.5 if I did swap and not a .260. How is the recoil of the 6.5 on a heavy gun? I shot a heavy .223 today and it just wasn't fair at all! But before I swap I'd like to make sure the 6.5 will have enough terminal performance on game at a reasonable distance (under 600yds) and can be reloaded for easily.

 

[Swift]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BenY 2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to stick with the 6.5 if I did swap and not a .260. How is the recoil of the 6.5 on a heavy gun? I shot a heavy .223 today and it just wasn't fair at all! But before I swap I'd like to make sure the 6.5 will have enough terminal performance on game at a reasonable distance (under 600yds) and can be reloaded for easily. </div></div>

Recoil?

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

The higher B.C. of the 6.5mm bullet equates to less energy loss in flight. Recoil will be less because there is less mass in the barrel when you pull the trigger.

The 6.5's are easy to load for and the selction of 6.5 projectiles is EXCELLENT.

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Ok so far I want to do this ( I can hear my wallet getting lighter already ) all that I need to know is about terminal performance on game. I won't hunt with this much but want to have confidence when I do!

Saw this in my search, look reasonable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2COAcHZRlI

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

You can easily answer all of your questions by spending some time on JBM and looking at the terminal performance of the bullets you are interested in at different distances.

 

[Judd]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

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I had my smith pull my 30-06 barrel off my Savage and replaced it with a 6.5 Creedmoor. That is a 100 yd load development target but target 5 in the corner was shot with 140gr factory shells. The first 4 targets were shot with the bullets jammed .010, I am going to work on #3 a little on bullet jump and see where I end up, but I'm happy with it now.

I'd say it's a shooter and I love shooting this thing.

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

If you're interested in the Creed, factory ammo is available with good long range projectiles.

 

[swampbuck]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

As mentioned the 308 will have more energy and terminal performance out of the gate. However after 600 or so yards the 6.5 will retain more energy than the 308. It is the marathon runner of the two. For standard Max hunting range or so 300-500 yards the 308 will have the upper hand. Just remember you are going to need to use good HUNTING bullets if you are going to have 100% game harvest with either. I know that there are a lot of guys on SH who say they use match kings and shoot deer in the head. But if you are shooting behind the shoulder as recommended by true sportsmen than you need to use quality hunting bullets. We all owe it to game animals to harvest as humanely as possible. Shooting behind the shoulder gives the best and largest target area. Shooting in the head leaves no room for error. An animal dying and unable to eat because his teeth have been shot out is immoral and I believe that there is a special place in Hell for people who do that and call themselves sportsmen. Also If a great wall hanging buck walks out who wants to shoot him in the head. My taxadermist isn't that good.

Sorry about the rant.

 

[Swift]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I still think the 308 isn't getting the credit it deserves. Its been proven reliable at a grand time and again in nearly every conceivable application. It also functions well in a hunting role with a vast selection of quality hunting bullets.

Im all for efficient cartridges and im loving my 260 but I think everyone should have a 308 in their collection and be experienced with it for a number of reasons before delving into more niche chamberings.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still think the 308 isn't getting the credit it deserves. Its been proven reliable at a grand time and again in nearly every conceivable application. It also functions well in a hunting role with a vast selection of quality hunting bullets. </div></div>

Its been said time and time again here:

308 is "good", but today there are chamberings that are "better" (ie. superior drop/drift and downrange energy).

Yes, 308 is cheaper to shoot than 260, especially with factory ammo...but just like in your car example, horsepower ain't free.

I have two 260s and see absolutely zero reason to own a 308.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

The .308 and the .260 each have optimal maximum bullet weights. The .260's optimum weight tends to have a better BC, which I interpret to mean that it retains energy better as distances get extended.

I would consider the .260 to be adequate for all but the largest North American Game. I would not use either the .260 or the .308 for dangerous game (and IMHO, this inludes larger hogs).

My experience is with the .260, I know nothing more about the 6.5CM beyond what I read.

The 6.5CM and .260 are essentially neck and neck in my performance choices.

The 6.5CM has a slight edge with its slightly shorter case, which can be marginally more beneficial in terms of keeping cartridge OAL within magazine/action length limitations.

In essence, there is a potential for magazine length cartridges to have a better relationship to rifling engagement, allowing jump to be more optimal.

I still like the .308 as a starter/learner chambering. It is a well known, well understood cartridge, and can work well to acquaint the shooter with precision shooting. But I also believe that the 6.5's are a logical next step when the 308's LR performance becomes limiting. For many, that limitation is never unacceptable, but the 6.5's can be made to do the same distances with less drop and drift. A truly skilled shooter can accomodate either's performance characteristics.

For the .260, handloading is probably still a requirement for best performance from a given rifle. I hear .260 FGMM is available, and will be looking into that. The .308 does not suffer factory ammo limitations, and good factory ammo for the 6.5CM exists, when it's available.

Greg

 

[dbateman]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BenY 2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd like to stick with the 6.5 if I did swap and not a .260. How is the recoil of the 6.5 on a heavy gun? I shot a heavy .223 today and it just wasn't fair at all! But before I swap I'd like to make sure the 6.5 will have enough terminal performance on game at a reasonable distance (under 600yds) and can be reloaded for easily. </div></div>


Stick with your 308 once you shoot it out re barrel it to 6.5.

The 308 will do what you are asking.

 

[SFree]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

It's a stinkin Savage, Get a 6.5 Creed barrel and keep the .308 with a 10 minute swap. Creed factory loads are cheaper than .308 match with much less recoil and it's not ever failed to drop anything it has been asked to.

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I may just pick up another barrel and have both, money right now is a limiting factor. But that seems logical! Thanks for all the help!

 

[coug]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

The .308 is what it is.. its cheap very available and everyone has one. The 6.5 out performs the .308 in every way even when you reaload 6.5 mm bergers are gonna cost 36 to 40 dollars per 100
but your shooting will get easier. its all what you want. I dont shoot a .308 because if you want to hang cheap around your neck shoot a .223 thats cheap you can shoot it out to 1000yds. If you shoot the 75 gr A-Max you can rock steel out to 800 yds. and you shoot half the powder.. So if you want cheap go .223 if you want performance shot a 6.5 flavor.. I shoot a .223 almost everyday and I shoot a 6.5X47 for match and for Mule dear and elk I shoot a 6.5-06 AI.. If I had that to do over it would have been a 7mag of some kind.. But its all up to the guy that owns it what he wants. take it from a guy with Builders remorse over the 6.5-06 AI..

 

[PRDRIVER]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Shoot your .308 barrel out and then rebarrel with one of the 6.5 calibers. Since purchasing my .260, I have not shot my .308 much.

The .260 essentially does everything better than the .308. Just be prepared to reload of the .260. If reloading is not your thing then go with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[coug]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Hey you might try the Savage model 10 predator in 6.5 creedmoor it has DBM center feed and will shoot 1/4 min with no trouble. If you have a dealer friend you can get it for about $700 and it will shoot with most custom builds..

 

[nfoley]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I just put a 6.5 CM Shilen barrel on my Savage, replacing the 308. I am keeping the 308 because it shoots very well and I have a ton of bullets and brass. And my 308 is cut to 18" and threaded for suppressor use. Barrel swap is not difficult at all.
Will be putting some rounds down the new 6.5 barrel next weekend when I get some time.

 

[Swift]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .308 and the .260 each have optimal maximum bullet weights. The .260's optimum weight tends to have a better BC, which I interpret to mean that it retains energy better as distances get extended.

I would consider the .260 to be adequate for all but the largest North American Game. I would not use either the .260 or the .308 for dangerous game (and IMHO, this inludes larger hogs).

My experience is with the .260, I know nothing more about the 6.5CM beyond what I read.

The 6.5CM and .260 are essentially neck and neck in my performance choices.

The 6.5CM has a slight edge with its slightly shorter case, which can be marginally more beneficial in terms of keeping cartridge OAL within magazine/action length limitations.

In essence, there is a potential for magazine length cartridges to have a better relationship to rifling engagement, allowing jump to be more optimal.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I still like the .308 as a starter/learner chambering. It is a well known, well understood cartridge, and can work well to acquaint the shooter with precision shooting. But I also believe that the 6.5's are a logical next step when the 308's LR performance becomes limiting. For many, that limitation is never unacceptable, but the 6.5's can be made to do the same distances with less drop and drift. A truly skilled shooter can accomodate either's performance characteristics.</span>

For the .260, handloading is probably still a requirement for best performance from a given rifle. I hear .260 FGMM is available, and will be looking into that. The .308 does not suffer factory ammo limitations, and good factory ammo for the 6.5CM exists, when it's available.

Greg </div></div>

Well put. A 308s ballistic disadvantage can be an advantage for new shooters because it's more sensitive to wind and forces them to learn to make good wind calls.

If this is your first bolt gun, I'd say shoot out the factory barrel and when you rebarrel to a 6.5 you will be better prepared to take advantage of the more efficient(and expensive) cartridges.

 

[JonnyIndy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I went through this same decision, and went with the 6.5CM. Originally I planned to shoot the .308 barrel out first, but got antsy and made the change early

Keeping the .308 barrel though.....

 

[timski]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I shoot both a 6.5 Grendel and a 308. The 6.5 is in an Alexander Arms upper and the 308 is a les Bauer. At the altitude I am shooting at (4000 ft) both are still supersonic at 1000 yards. Both give outstanding accuracy. I can sure tell the difference between hitting the gong at 1000 yards with the 6.5 and the 308. Way more energy with the 308. I use Wilson Seating dies in my Skinner Press to seat bullets. The Skinner press works like an arbor press for those dies. That sure makes a difference. I have no more than .001 runout with the Wilson die compared to .005 or more with other dies.

 

[nfoley]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timski</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot both a 6.5 Grendel and a 308. The 6.5 is in an Alexander Arms upper and the 308 is a les Bauer. At the altitude I am shooting at (4000 ft) both are still supersonic at 1000 yards. Both give outstanding accuracy. I can sure tell the difference between hitting the gong at 1000 yards with the 6.5 and the 308. Way more energy with the 308. I use Wilson Seating dies in my Skinner Press to seat bullets. The Skinner press works like an arbor press for those dies. That sure makes a difference. I have no more than .001 runout with the Wilson die compared to .005 or more with other dies. </div></div>

Not sure about the grendel, but comparing 308 175 SMK at 2650 MV vs 6.5CM and 140 Amax with 2840 MV - the energy generated by the 6.5CM is more than the 308 at 1000 yds. 611 ft lbs for the 6.5 vs 550 ft lbs for the 308.

 

[para1505]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I can not believe all the talk of less recoil with a .260 or 6.5 that a.308 has. If some one said that to me face to face I would have to say what a PUSSY

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

we're talking about recoil, not because it hurts, but because less recoil makes spotting hits easier...

but I'll admit, after 100+ rds a day, I like the way my shoulder feels better w/ a 6.5 or 6mm than I do w/ a 308... if that makes me a pussy, so be it...

 

[CaptNemo]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I went thru a similar dilemma about 10 months ago when I started looking into the Savage model 12 LRP rifles. At the time, the Hornady 6.5 CM ammo was less expensive than .308 FGMM ammo, so the ammo cost was now a plus for the 6.5. Shoots flatter, less recoil, once I start reloading it uses less powder & the bullets are less expensive.
Needless to say the 6.5 got ordered.
The down sides for the 6.5 are limited ammo suppliers, (Hornady) any they have been underestimating the popularity of the 140 Amax loading and haven't scheduled sufficient production lately so it's been kinda scarce.
I got the rifle in December and have been impressed with the accuracy out of the box.

120 Amax factory load at 100 yards. Is a caterpillar considered a "bug" ?

140 Amax factory loads at 100 yards

It wasn't too much of a fluke 140 Amax again

This was two groups with one called flyer.

Am I happy with my choice? You bet !!

 

[BenY 2013]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Thanks everyone for all the replies. I probably won't be able to get it soon but think I will definantly be ordering a 6.5 barel for this gun in the near future.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

BenY,

Another thing to consider is that many of the comparisons you read about 308s vs 6.5mm flavors aren't quite apples to apples.

Most of these comparisons use the highest BC 6.5mm bullets pushed at extreme speeds against mid-range BC .308 bullets pushed at mild velocities.

Before you rush out and replace your barrel, use JBM to do a more apples to apples comparison.

For instance, the 140AMAX in .260 should be compared to a equivalent BC bullets in .308 such as the Hornady 208gr AMAX or Hornady 225gr HPBT bullets.

For instance, 208AMAX launched at 2600fps from a 24" barrel gives:

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2604.7 2.333 3132.8 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.6 0.5 2466.5 2.209 2809.2 0.118 20.8 19.9
200 -4.2 -2.0 2.3 1.1 2332.5 2.089 2512.2 0.243 42.8 20.5
300 -14.8 -4.7 5.3 1.7 2202.8 1.973 2240.7 0.376 66.1 21.1
400 -32.6 -7.8 9.7 2.3 2077.6 1.861 1993.1 0.516 90.8 21.7
500 -58.5 -11.2 15.7 3.0 1956.4 1.752 1767.4 0.665 117.0 22.3
600 -93.4 -14.9 23.2 3.7 1838.8 1.647 1561.4 0.823 144.9 23.1
700 -138.6 -18.9 32.6 4.4 1724.7 1.545 1373.5 0.991 174.5 23.8
800 -195.6 -23.3 44.0 5.3 1613.6 1.445 1202.4 1.171 206.2 24.6
900 -265.9 -28.2 57.6 6.1 1505.8 1.349 1047.0 1.364 240.0 25.5
1000 -351.6 -33.6 73.7 7.0 1401.3 1.255 906.7 1.570 276.4 26.4

compared to 260 Remington shooting 140AMAX at 2750ft/s
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2755.2 2.468 2359.4 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.6 0.5 2601.0 2.330 2102.7 0.112 19.7 18.8
200 -3.6 -1.7 2.3 1.1 2451.5 2.196 1868.0 0.231 40.6 19.4
300 -13.1 -4.2 5.3 1.7 2307.0 2.066 1654.3 0.357 62.8 20.0
400 -29.0 -6.9 9.8 2.3 2167.7 1.942 1460.4 0.491 86.4 20.6
500 -52.4 -10.0 15.8 3.0 2033.4 1.821 1285.1 0.634 111.6 21.3
600 -84.2 -13.4 23.5 3.7 1903.7 1.705 1126.5 0.787 138.4 22.0
700 -125.6 -17.1 33.0 4.5 1778.2 1.593 982.8 0.950 167.1 22.8
800 -178.1 -21.3 44.6 5.3 1656.4 1.484 852.8 1.124 197.9 23.6
900 -243.2 -25.8 58.5 6.2 1538.3 1.378 735.5 1.312 231.0 24.5
1000 -323.0 -30.8 75.0 7.2 1424.1 1.276 630.3 1.515 266.7 25.5

As you can see from the above, when you don't use older, lower BC 30cal bullets (155 flavors, 175 SMK etc), you get a more apples to apples comparison of both cartridges, and you'll find that the 308 still holds its own in several important categories (energy, wind-drift, availability of components, cost of reloading supplies etc) but with the downside of more recoil...and not being part of the cool kids shooting 6.5s.

I'd say get a 260 for the recoil relative to performance, not because of some quantum leap in performance over the .308.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I don't know how likely 2600fps with a 208 from a 24" barrel (I don't own a 308)...but 2800fps with 140gr bullets is pretty typical from a 260 with 24" barrel, with more speed available if running RL17 instead of H4350.

The difference at 1000yd, assuming sea level/standard atmosphere, is a drop/drift of 9.8/2.1 mils for the 308 @ 2600fps vs. 8.6/2.0 mils for the 260 @ 2800fps. With a 140gr Berger VLD @ 2800, you have 8.4/1.9 mils, and with a 130gr Berger VLD @ 3000fps the drop/drift is 7.6/2.0 mils.

Looking at 308 performance with various bullets is pretty interesting though; if you compare the 175 SMK @ 2700fps vs. a 208 A-Max @ 2500fps, the 208 walks all over the 175 SMK....though again, I dunno how feasible those speeds are.

 

[jarhead_h]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SFree</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a stinkin Savage, Get a 6.5 Creed barrel and keep the .308 with a 10 minute swap. Creed factory loads are cheaper than .308 match with much less recoil and it's not ever failed to drop anything it has been asked to. </div></div>

THIS/\.

No, seriously, the beauty of a Savage is that you need a wrench and a (PTG)go-gauge to change out a barrel. Order one from PacNor or Saturn, get the reloading equipment, and start shooting.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Boilerup,

I tried to use achievable speeds w non-match, non-super high-velocity barrels.

2,550fps is achievable from a 20" barrel using powders such as Alliant 2000MR & Hodgon CFE 223...a couple of people on the hide have reported 2,600ft/s plus from 24" 308s loaded to mag-length.

There are also bullets such as Hornady's 225gr HPBT (.711 G1 BC), Berger 230gr Hybrid (.743 G1 BC) that promise even better performance out of 308s than the 208AMAX (.649G1 BC).

The numbers I gave are from JBM using Litz G7 BCs, with velocities that most people can attain without running on the ragged edge of pressure.

The point I'm trying to make is that the 308 is no slouch and depending on your application, it may not be worth the added expense of re-barreling, getting new dies, buying new bullets, switching out powders, etc, etc, just to get 2-4 inches less windage at 1,000yards.

 

[WhiteCliffsOfDover]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!




I'm curious about something.........for you guys whom have both the 308, and the 6.5 either the Creedmoor or 260...Do you find yourself spending more time shooting the 6.5's then the 308 due to less recoil??????

 

[VKC]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I have both 308win and 6.5 Creedmoor rifles. I prefer to shoot my 6.5 Creedmoor hands down. Hornandy 6.5CM ammo isn't that expensive when compared to 308 match ammo. Wind drift and drop is less, as well as recoil with the 6.5s vs 308win.

The only thing that the 308win has on the 6.5 Creedmoor is more readily available ammo, and a longer barrel life.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

vkc,

Per my previous post, if you run the numbers (high BC .30cal projectiles vs High BC 6.5s), the difference in performance is not as great as people think...you have to ask yourself if the added expense of lower barrel life, more expensive & less available ammo & reloading components, and lower terminal energy (for hunting) is worth the 2-4 inches of less drift & drop at extended ranges.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

It's much more than 2-4".

208 AMAX at 2600fps, about top speed for this round, at sea level at 75 deg.

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (mil) (in) (mil) (in) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (mil) (in)
50 -0.2 -0.3 0.1 0.1 2532.6 2.234 2961.8 0.058 1.1 2.1
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.2 0.5 2466.1 2.176 2808.4 0.118 1.2 4.2
150 -0.2 -1.1 0.2 1.2 2400.7 2.118 2661.3 0.180 1.2 6.3
200 -0.5 -3.7 0.3 2.2 2336.2 2.061 2520.3 0.243 1.2 8.6
250 -0.9 -7.9 0.4 3.5 2272.8 2.005 2385.4 0.309 1.2 10.9
300 -1.3 -13.8 0.5 5.2 2210.5 1.950 2256.3 0.375 1.2 13.2
350 -1.7 -21.5 0.6 7.1 2149.2 1.896 2132.9 0.444 1.2 15.6
400 -2.2 -31.0 0.7 9.4 2088.8 1.843 2014.8 0.515 1.3 18.1
450 -2.6 -42.6 0.7 12.1 2029.4 1.790 1901.9 0.588 1.3 20.7
500 -3.1 -56.2 0.8 15.1 1971.0 1.739 1793.8 0.663 1.3 23.3
550 -3.6 -72.1 0.9 18.6 1913.3 1.688 1690.4 0.740 1.3 26.1
600 -4.2 -90.4 1.0 22.4 1856.4 1.638 1591.4 0.820 1.3 28.9
650 -4.8 -111.2 1.1 26.7 1800.4 1.588 1496.8 0.902 1.4 31.7
700 -5.3 -134.6 1.2 31.5 1745.1 1.539 1406.2 0.986 1.4 34.7
750 -6.0 -160.9 1.4 36.7 1690.5 1.491 1319.7 1.074 1.4 37.8
800 -6.6 -190.3 1.5 42.4 1636.7 1.444 1237.0 1.164 1.4 41.0
850 -7.3 -222.9 1.6 48.7 1583.6 1.397 1158.0 1.257 1.4 44.3
900 -8.0 -259.0 1.7 55.5 1531.2 1.351 1082.7 1.354 1.5 47.6
950 -8.7 -298.8 1.8 62.8 1479.7 1.305 1011.0 1.453 1.5 51.2
1000 -9.5 -342.5 2.0 70.9 1429.0 1.261 942.9 1.556 1.5 54.8

140 AMAX at 2850fps, which is more realistic than 2750fps, at same conditions

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (mil) (in) (mil) (in) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (mil) (in)
50 -0.2 -0.4 0.1 0.1 2773.3 2.447 2390.5 0.053 1.0 1.9
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.1 0.5 2697.7 2.380 2262.0 0.108 1.1 3.8
150 -0.1 -0.8 0.2 1.2 2623.2 2.314 2138.8 0.165 1.1 5.8
200 -0.4 -2.8 0.3 2.1 2549.8 2.249 2020.8 0.223 1.1 7.8
250 -0.7 -6.1 0.4 3.4 2477.6 2.186 1907.9 0.282 1.1 9.9
300 -1.0 -10.9 0.5 4.9 2406.5 2.123 1800.0 0.344 1.1 12.1
350 -1.4 -17.2 0.5 6.8 2336.7 2.061 1697.0 0.407 1.1 14.3
400 -1.7 -25.1 0.6 9.0 2268.0 2.001 1598.8 0.472 1.2 16.6
450 -2.1 -34.6 0.7 11.5 2200.6 1.941 1505.1 0.539 1.2 19.0
500 -2.6 -46.0 0.8 14.5 2134.4 1.883 1415.9 0.608 1.2 21.4
550 -3.0 -59.2 0.9 17.8 2069.3 1.825 1330.9 0.680 1.2 23.9
600 -3.4 -74.5 1.0 21.5 2005.3 1.769 1249.8 0.753 1.2 26.5
650 -3.9 -92.0 1.1 25.6 1942.3 1.713 1172.6 0.829 1.2 29.2
700 -4.4 -111.7 1.2 30.1 1880.3 1.659 1098.9 0.908 1.3 32.0
750 -5.0 -133.9 1.3 35.1 1819.3 1.605 1028.7 0.989 1.3 34.8
800 -5.5 -158.8 1.4 40.6 1759.1 1.552 961.8 1.073 1.3 37.8
850 -6.1 -186.4 1.5 46.6 1699.8 1.499 898.0 1.160 1.3 40.8
900 -6.7 -217.1 1.6 53.2 1641.3 1.448 837.3 1.250 1.4 44.0
950 -7.3 -250.9 1.8 60.3 1583.8 1.397 779.6 1.343 1.4 47.3
1000 -8.0 -288.3 1.9 68.0 1527.1 1.347 724.8 1.439 1.4 50.7

At 1000 yards you loose 1.5 mils of elevation which is 54 inches of drop and the .308is .1 mil less for a full value 10mph wind, which is only 3.6".

For energy the 140 is 724 ft/lbs at 1000 and the 208 is 942 ft/lbs. More obviously due to the bullet. That said most shooters don't use the 208 AMAX and use the 175 or 155 weight bullets. The 155s will come closer in elevation but not in wind due to BC.

The .308 is ballistically inferior to the 6.5mm rounds. If you don't think it's worth it then don't use them but trying to make the numbers match by sending a high BC .30 bullet out at top speeds and then using a 6.5 at lower speeds then most use isn't going to work for people who know what they are looking at.

Also the factory Creedmoor isn't more expensive than similar loaded .308 match loads. Also they use the same 6.5mm bullets and powder as any other 6.5 round which are readily available. The brass is the only thing people say they can't find at times but it lasts a long time so 500 pieces will last a barrel atleast.

For matches there's no way I would pick a .308 over a 6.5 Creedmoor. I do use my .308 at home to practice as it does have a longer barrel life and I only have 400 yards.

 

[Mike]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

What's this Rob? You mean someone wanted to use unrealistic internet numbers to try and justify a situation that would never exist? Say it isn't so.

The fact of the matter is the 308 is a very capable round....capable. But in no way does it compare for longer distances to just about any of the 6.5s.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Tag

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The fact of the matter is the 308 is a very capable round....capable. But in no way does it compare for longer distances to just about any of the 6.5s. </div></div>

Exactly Mike. It works but just not as good ballistically as the 6.5s. The only thing the .308 has over the 6.5s is barrel life and that's where you need to figure what's worth it to you. Longer barrel life or better ballistics.

What's it that George says about match rifles? "Friends don't let friends shoot .308"? LOL

 

[Whit]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I take offense, I love my .308. Only cheaters use 6.5s. A better shooter can use a .308. LOL just kidding (or am I).


But seriously, I almost switched my .308 to a .260. Kinda wish I did, but I have a soft spot for my .308 and couldn't bring myself to do it. HHMM I guess now I am going to have to buy me a .260. I am thinking a GAP.

 

[Whit]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Rob,
What 6.5 do you shoot?

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Whit, I have a 6.5 Creedmoor.

Cheating is working outside the set rules to gain an advantage. Working smarter is using a better tool for the job at hand which is still inside the set rules.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Argument for .308:
Why get a barrel that lasts half as long? .308 can be very accurate once dialed in (and wind also has to be consistent).

Argument for .260/6.5:
10 MOA advantage (less drop) at 1000 yards is a huge advantage! If you are in competition, the flatter trajectory of the .260/6.5 will is a must.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Rob01,

I chose 2,750fps based on velocities at max pressures listed by the powder companies (hodgon, alliant, et al) for a 24" barrel. I understand everyone has a faster barrel, can load longer etc, but to keep the comparisons on an apples-to apples basis, i choose data based on what powder companies were reporting.

I choose 2,600ft/s for the 308 and 208AMAX combo out of a 24" barrel...this is nowhere near top speed for this combination. There is a gentleman on here who is getting this speed at mag-length out of a 24" gas gun...yet another gentle man got 2615ft/s w 2000-MR powder at mag-length w a 24" barrel on a savage rifle...I believe both are on the 208AMAX+ RL-17 thread or the 208AMAX alternate powder thread

[ Hodgon lists & 2,582ft/s for 200grain bullets in a 308 w CFE223 at just shy of mag-length...which is consistent with my posts]

On the same thread, and you'll c guys such as montanan marine getting much faster speeds with RL-17...granted, they are seating the bullets way out to gain powder capacity, but 2,600ft/s is nowhere near max velocity with the 208AMAX out of a 308.

If one competed in a known distance competition: F-class, Highpower, Palma Matches etc, Elevation means squat...the elevation is what it is, and does not vary from shot to shot...It is all about windage!<span style="font-weight: bold"> In this regard, the 308 is superior to the 260 </span> ss long as you select the right bullet (Hint: obviously not 175s or 155s)

For hunting, and tactical comps where distances are constantly changing, then yes, of course the elevation advantage of the 260 is unquestioned.

As I said, depending on your application and needs, the extra costs and other downsides of switching to .260 anything may not be worth it or even advantageous.

By the way, are there any 140grain factory loads pushing 2,850fps? I ask cause one of the respondents on this threads posted something about 6.5ammo being an inexpensive as 308 ammo...the OP needs to be aware that he will not be getting the performance of the 2,850ft/s loads you mentioned, but rather, the performance of the loads I posted if he doesnt reload...there is also the inconvienent fact that he may also not get top accuracy with the factory stuff, but that's a diff argument...

I'm not suggesting that shooting a 200+gr pills out of 308 bolt guns is fun ( I shoot a gas gun in part bc of recoil) but that if you do an objective analysis, switching to 260 anything may not be the way to go.

 

[Whit]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whit, I have a 6.5 Creedmoor.

Cheating is working outside the set rules to gain an advantage. Working smarter is using a better tool for the job at hand which is still inside the set rules.

</div></div>

I know, I am just being a smart ass. I hear a lot of people say "It feels like cheating" when they shoot a 260. They always say work smarter not harder.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By the way, are there any 140grain factory loads pushing 2,850fps? I ask cause one of the respondents on this threads posted something about 6.5ammo being an inexpensive as 308 ammo...the OP needs to be aware that he will not be getting the performance of the 2,850ft/s loads you mentioned, but rather, the performance of the loads I posted if he doesnt reload...there is also the inconvienent fact that he may also not get top accuracy with the factory stuff, but that's a diff argument...

</div></div>

My factory Creedmoor ammo is 2840fps out of my 26.5" barrel so yes it's there dependent on barrel just as the 2600fps from the 208 will be dependent on the rifle. By the way, where does he buy the 208 AMAX at 2600fps in a factory load?

The .308 is not superior to the 6.5mms in windage. Look at the charts I posted. The 6.5 is .1 mil tighter in the wind at 1000 than the .308 with the 208s. If anything it's a push. Then you go to the other ballistic advantages of the 6.5mms like lighter recoil and flatter shooting that make it a better package as a whole. Pushing a 208 out at 2600fps with no brake, as those competitions you mention require, will give you a good amount of recoil as well.

Try and justify it any way you like but you won't convince me. I used to shoot a .308 at matches and went to better cartridges. You want to keep running a .308 then all the power to you. You will need it.

 

[mark5pt56]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

I don't shoot as much as some and with my short time with the 6.5 CM, I doubt I will ever build a LR .308 again for a couple reasons.
The ballistics are better with the 6.5 and even though not "heavy" my shoulder doesn't do well any more with a day long .308 range day.

SAC did a nice 6.5 for me with a R&D brake and it's a pleasure to shoot. My AI .308 is braked, when the barrel is toast, it's getting a 6.5. My other .308's will either get a brake or I will sell them(FN TSR and SPRA5M)

I traded PM's for a while with Rob01 when I debated the 6.5 vs .308 questions as I was ignorant on the caliber and ballistics(same applies to the .260)

Glad I did get it and I'm saving my brass from the factory loads for making my own later!

Mark

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Another 6.5 vs .308 question!

Rob01,

I'm not trying to convince you, and this is not an emotional argument.

While there are no factory 200grain 308 loads i'm aware of, there are people on here that have gotten 2,700+ fps with 208AMAX out of their 308s by loading long & using reloader 17, but i did not use those numbers in my comparison.

I simply looked at factory information for a 260 rem, and added 50fps...and subtracted about 100+ fps from the 308 loads people are reporting on this forum...you may think my comparison is biased, it is...in the direction of the 260...

My comparison is more relevant to the 260 remington not the 6.5CM...but i'm using very conservative numbers (based on results of people on the hide) for the 308...additionally, the 208AMAX is not the highest BC bullet in the 30-cal flavorings...the Hornady 225gr HPBT (.711 G1 BC) and the new Berger 230gr Hybrid (.743 G1 BC) will provide even better wind resistance and terminal energy than any 6.5 bullet...i don't have enough data on those, so i chose not to post a comparison based on those bullets.

The OP asked a question about changing calibers without telling us what he'll use the rifle for...only that he heard the 6.5s are awesome...they are, but the awesomeness may not translate to his application if it involves shooting long-range, known-distance competitions where elevation = scope dials or iron sight clicks...and x-ring or 10-ring hits count. In said comps, nobody cares about how little elevation they are using, only if a missed wind call gets them an x, 10, or 9 ring hit...

As I said, the chief advantage of a 260/6.5CM over the 308 is performance relative to recoil...but then, it depends on whether windage or hits on targets wins the match for you.