I'm looking into getting one of these. I want a post 1992 action. What do you guyd think about them, how well do they shoot and what can be done to them?
- Thread starter Mauser34
- Start date
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Better designed than a Remington. Quality can be spotty so sometimes they take some polishing. The FN built guns are some of the best factory rifles ever built and I've yet to hear of one that won't put three of something it likes under an inch. Screw on a new barrel and they are very accurate. You can get nearly any stock for one, though not a chassis, and CDI makes bottom metal if you lije AICS mags. Triggers in either Classic or the new FN guns are good to go. The safety locks the pin and they never fire when you push the safety forward. They can't accommodate a double stack magazine.
For parts you have fewer options but you can do almost anything to one that you can do with a Remington.
I have AI and Surgeon if I want to play around at distance but my hunting rifles are Winchesters or CZs.
Better designed than a Remington. Quality can be spotty so sometimes they take some polishing. The FN built guns are some of the best factory rifles ever built and I've yet to hear of one that won't put three of something it likes under an inch. Screw on a new barrel and they are very accurate. You can get nearly any stock for one, though not a chassis, and CDI makes bottom metal if you lije AICS mags. Triggers in either Classic or the new FN guns are good to go. The safety locks the pin and they never fire when you push the safety forward. They can't accommodate a double stack magazine.
For parts you have fewer options but you can do almost anything to one that you can do with a Remington.
I have AI and Surgeon if I want to play around at distance but my hunting rifles are Winchesters or CZs.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA?
would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA?
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA? </div></div>
Almost certainly not. For what it's worth, the FN SPR is trued by FN. They are great rifles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA? </div></div>
Almost certainly not. For what it's worth, the FN SPR is trued by FN. They are great rifles.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Sub MOA, no. If you want sub half minute you'll want a new barrel and that's when you want to true it. From what my gunsmith told me they are much more dimensionally accurate (FN guns) than Remington so truing isn't as dramatically necessary.
Sub MOA, no. If you want sub half minute you'll want a new barrel and that's when you want to true it. From what my gunsmith told me they are much more dimensionally accurate (FN guns) than Remington so truing isn't as dramatically necessary.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA? </div></div>
Almost certainly not. For what it's worth, the FN SPR is trued by FN. They are great rifles. </div></div>
My SPR put ten 168s into 3/4" from a bipod with no bag while I was laying on the gravel in the rain. And I'm a poor group shooter.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">would I need to do any trueing to the action to achive sub MOA? </div></div>
Almost certainly not. For what it's worth, the FN SPR is trued by FN. They are great rifles. </div></div>
My SPR put ten 168s into 3/4" from a bipod with no bag while I was laying on the gravel in the rain. And I'm a poor group shooter.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
What years did FN produce Model 70s?
What years did FN produce Model 70s?
Re: Winchester Model 70?
The FN SPR (CRF Win70 short action) goes back at least to 2004, maybe earlier? and are still made.
I can't think of any differences between a pre64 Win70 and the SPR other than the bolt stop and the firing pin spring U-washer, but there may be a couple more.
Only bummer is you can't get a long action, and you can't get a 223. Man, I'd love a CRF FN SPR in 223!
The FN SPR (CRF Win70 short action) goes back at least to 2004, maybe earlier? and are still made.
I can't think of any differences between a pre64 Win70 and the SPR other than the bolt stop and the firing pin spring U-washer, but there may be a couple more.
Only bummer is you can't get a long action, and you can't get a 223. Man, I'd love a CRF FN SPR in 223!
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Turbo -
The new ones have the new trigger I believe - I could be wrong
If you buy a new Winchester - made by FN - the machining and fit are absolutely top notch - better than anything Rem or Win has ever done in the past - those DO come in long actions.
Turbo -
The new ones have the new trigger I believe - I could be wrong
If you buy a new Winchester - made by FN - the machining and fit are absolutely top notch - better than anything Rem or Win has ever done in the past - those DO come in long actions.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo -
The new ones have the new trigger I believe - I could be wrong
If you buy a new Winchester - made by FN - the machining and fit are absolutely top notch - better than anything Rem or Win has ever done in the past - those DO come in long actions. </div></div>
I know some Winnys/FNs are getting the new "MOA" trigger, but the SPR isn't. It gets the same old familiar 2-lever trigger the '70s have always had.
I forgot the long action IS available under the "Winchester" rollmark... for no particular reason though, I prefer the FNH rollmark, even though it's the same damn thing.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo -
The new ones have the new trigger I believe - I could be wrong
If you buy a new Winchester - made by FN - the machining and fit are absolutely top notch - better than anything Rem or Win has ever done in the past - those DO come in long actions. </div></div>
I know some Winnys/FNs are getting the new "MOA" trigger, but the SPR isn't. It gets the same old familiar 2-lever trigger the '70s have always had.
I forgot the long action IS available under the "Winchester" rollmark... for no particular reason though, I prefer the FNH rollmark, even though it's the same damn thing.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking into getting one of these. I want a post 1992 action. What do you guyd think about them, how well do they shoot and what can be done to them? </div></div>
There is a great deal on the SPR going on right now, right here.
I have this rifle and it is a tack driver. My mods include the CDI bottom metal and the CG-Xtreme trigger.
This trigger is a must have in my opinion. After the gunsmith installed mine, all the guys at the gun shop who have Timneys and Jewels on their guns were blown away by it and ordered CG triggers for their guns. LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking into getting one of these. I want a post 1992 action. What do you guyd think about them, how well do they shoot and what can be done to them? </div></div>
There is a great deal on the SPR going on right now, right here.
I have this rifle and it is a tack driver. My mods include the CDI bottom metal and the CG-Xtreme trigger.
This trigger is a must have in my opinion. After the gunsmith installed mine, all the guys at the gun shop who have Timneys and Jewels on their guns were blown away by it and ordered CG triggers for their guns. LOL
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sub MOA, no. If you want sub half minute you'll want a new barrel and that's when you want to true it. From what my gunsmith told me they are much more dimensionally accurate (FN guns) than Remington so truing isn't as dramatically necessary. </div></div>
My FN A5M SPR is a solid 1/4 MOA gun.
The only thing that isn't stock is the bedding.
FN sent it to GAP to be bedded under the A3G contract and it is good to go.
I honestly cannot imagine wearing out that chrome lined barrel unless I try to push 155 Scenars to 3,000 fps.
I run a M118-LR clone load and get 2710 fps MV.
Forgot to add...
I spoke with Ben Voss from FN over the weekend and he tells me that the new TBM bottom metal with the 5 & 10 round magazines will be available within the next two weeks.
He said to keep an eye our here on "The Hide" for an official announcement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanScott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sub MOA, no. If you want sub half minute you'll want a new barrel and that's when you want to true it. From what my gunsmith told me they are much more dimensionally accurate (FN guns) than Remington so truing isn't as dramatically necessary. </div></div>
My FN A5M SPR is a solid 1/4 MOA gun.
The only thing that isn't stock is the bedding.
FN sent it to GAP to be bedded under the A3G contract and it is good to go.
I honestly cannot imagine wearing out that chrome lined barrel unless I try to push 155 Scenars to 3,000 fps.
I run a M118-LR clone load and get 2710 fps MV.
Forgot to add...
I spoke with Ben Voss from FN over the weekend and he tells me that the new TBM bottom metal with the 5 & 10 round magazines will be available within the next two weeks.
He said to keep an eye our here on "The Hide" for an official announcement.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Nice! I love the old trigger for simplicity and reliability's sake. Good to know the SPR retained it. I too wish for a long action though (w old trigger).
Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish.
Nice! I love the old trigger for simplicity and reliability's sake. Good to know the SPR retained it. I too wish for a long action though (w old trigger).
Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag.
The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
Depends when it was made. FNH bought USRAC about 2004ish, and took over production. FNH does a damn fine job.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
Depends when it was made. FNH bought USRAC about 2004ish, and took over production. FNH does a damn fine job.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish. </div></div>
The PBR XP is the very same as the SPR action, the barrel and stocks are different though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish. </div></div>
The PBR XP is the very same as the SPR action, the barrel and stocks are different though.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
FN model 70s are marked South Carolina on the barrel. The FN SPR is marked FN on the receiver.
There is also a change inside the bolt that is supposed to be good for accuracy but my gunsmith didn't explain it well to me so I can't explain it.
I wish I could get bare actions still.
FN model 70s are marked South Carolina on the barrel. The FN SPR is marked FN on the receiver.
There is also a change inside the bolt that is supposed to be good for accuracy but my gunsmith didn't explain it well to me so I can't explain it.
I wish I could get bare actions still.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
It certainly could be....
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?gid=FNG005&fid=FNF006&mid=FNM0026
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
It certainly could be....
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?gid=FNG005&fid=FNF006&mid=FNM0026
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IronMaidenFan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
It certainly could be....
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?gid=FNG005&fid=FNF006&mid=FNM0026
</div></div>
Your link is to 300WSM, not 300WM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IronMaidenFan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The model 70 I'm looking at i guess isn't an FN because its a 300 win mag. </div></div>
It certainly could be....
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?gid=FNG005&fid=FNF006&mid=FNM0026
</div></div>
Your link is to 300WSM, not 300WM.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
this is very good news
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Forgot to add...
I spoke with Ben Voss from FN over the weekend and he tells me that the new TBM bottom metal with the 5 & 10 round magazines will be available within the next two weeks.
He said to keep an eye our here on "The Hide" for an official announcement.
</div></div>
this is very good news
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Forgot to add...
I spoke with Ben Voss from FN over the weekend and he tells me that the new TBM bottom metal with the 5 & 10 round magazines will be available within the next two weeks.
He said to keep an eye our here on "The Hide" for an official announcement.
</div></div>
Re: Winchester Model 70?
well - plus the headspacing and action truing that goes into the SPR. They also give you a 1moa accuracy garantee with the SPR. Not that a PBR can't shoot that well (had a pbr once upon a time), it just isn't garanteed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish. </div></div>
The PBR XP is the very same as the SPR action, the barrel and stocks are different though.</div></div>
well - plus the headspacing and action truing that goes into the SPR. They also give you a 1moa accuracy garantee with the SPR. Not that a PBR can't shoot that well (had a pbr once upon a time), it just isn't garanteed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: abbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the PBR the same damn thing with just different furniture? If so, that's the bargain. Buy a PBR for $800 and then do what you wish. </div></div>
The PBR XP is the very same as the SPR action, the barrel and stocks are different though.</div></div>
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c4xplsv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well - plus the headspacing and action truing that goes into the SPR. They also give you a 1moa accuracy garantee with the SPR. Not that a PBR can't shoot that well (had a pbr once upon a time), it just isn't garanteed. </div></div>
Where are you getting the headspace and action truing info from?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c4xplsv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well - plus the headspacing and action truing that goes into the SPR. They also give you a 1moa accuracy garantee with the SPR. Not that a PBR can't shoot that well (had a pbr once upon a time), it just isn't garanteed. </div></div>
Where are you getting the headspace and action truing info from?
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I would love to get the spr but the model 70 I'm looking at is about a quarter the price. I don't know exactly when it was made but I know its post 1992.
I would love to get the spr but the model 70 I'm looking at is about a quarter the price. I don't know exactly when it was made but I know its post 1992.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Another plus to this rifle is the included rail. One of the units I handled in person before had the excellent Near Mfg rail which is one of the best - as well as most expensive. The base at retail from Near is up to $175 now. You can buy the rifle, base included for $800. I think this gun (PBR/TSR) is the sleeper of the tac world. Throw it in a good stock and put glass on it and you're ready to truly operate.
Another plus to this rifle is the included rail. One of the units I handled in person before had the excellent Near Mfg rail which is one of the best - as well as most expensive. The base at retail from Near is up to $175 now. You can buy the rifle, base included for $800. I think this gun (PBR/TSR) is the sleeper of the tac world. Throw it in a good stock and put glass on it and you're ready to truly operate.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
i'm a winchester fan.
i'm having my 2004 m70 7wsm rebarreled/chambered for 7saum. why? because the winchester short action is slightly longer than the remington, and it looks like i'll have room to spare for running 180 vld's. my gunsmith was actually kinda excited about it.
yes, winchester parts are harder to find, but this thing has been through hell & back as my elk rifle and until recently held ~3/4 moa with 160 accubonds.
i also recently called Alpha Industries & they have mags for winchester/fn, and they were certain that CDI does make bottom metal for them (haven't called CDI yet- waiting to replenish funds).
i'm a winchester fan.
i'm having my 2004 m70 7wsm rebarreled/chambered for 7saum. why? because the winchester short action is slightly longer than the remington, and it looks like i'll have room to spare for running 180 vld's. my gunsmith was actually kinda excited about it.
yes, winchester parts are harder to find, but this thing has been through hell & back as my elk rifle and until recently held ~3/4 moa with 160 accubonds.
i also recently called Alpha Industries & they have mags for winchester/fn, and they were certain that CDI does make bottom metal for them (haven't called CDI yet- waiting to replenish funds).
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I have a LA push feed not a CRF. It is a standard boltface, switch barrel by Whidden that came from anothe hide member. It is AWESOME. In 308 its a FTR or 308 limited nightmare. And it is a long action with CDI metal -thanks again Jeff, so it can go mag easy and anything in between.
I am dying to get the CG trigger.
IMHO Win is a better rifle than Remmy.
It seems that Remmy do to cost to manufacturer and ease of spinning in a chuck was the mil winner and by default the common foundation most turn to.
I seem to be in good company feeling this way towards Winchester though.
I have a LA push feed not a CRF. It is a standard boltface, switch barrel by Whidden that came from anothe hide member. It is AWESOME. In 308 its a FTR or 308 limited nightmare. And it is a long action with CDI metal -thanks again Jeff, so it can go mag easy and anything in between.
I am dying to get the CG trigger.
IMHO Win is a better rifle than Remmy.
It seems that Remmy do to cost to manufacturer and ease of spinning in a chuck was the mil winner and by default the common foundation most turn to.
I seem to be in good company feeling this way towards Winchester though.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I just bought a new Winchester model 70 in a 7mm rem mag. the only thing is it doesn't have the Mauser style extractor. What do you guys think about this rifle?
I just bought a new Winchester model 70 in a 7mm rem mag. the only thing is it doesn't have the Mauser style extractor. What do you guys think about this rifle?
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought a new Winchester model 70 in a 7mm rem mag. the only thing is it doesn't have the Mauser style extractor. What do you guys think about this rifle? </div></div>
No offense, but to me, it ain't a Win70 if it ain't controlled round feed. I'd just assume have any if the other push-feed actions out there.
That said, pushfeed Win70s are perfectly good rifles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought a new Winchester model 70 in a 7mm rem mag. the only thing is it doesn't have the Mauser style extractor. What do you guys think about this rifle? </div></div>
No offense, but to me, it ain't a Win70 if it ain't controlled round feed. I'd just assume have any if the other push-feed actions out there.
That said, pushfeed Win70s are perfectly good rifles.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I agree RS. 3 pos safety, bullet proof trigger, integral recoil lug, and the extractor while not crf is still better. The blade ejector is better too imho.
I agree RS. 3 pos safety, bullet proof trigger, integral recoil lug, and the extractor while not crf is still better. The blade ejector is better too imho.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I also prefer my pre-64 & Classic CRF, but the pushfeed Heavy Varmints are excellent shooters too.
I also prefer my pre-64 & Classic CRF, but the pushfeed Heavy Varmints are excellent shooters too.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I haven't completely purchased this yet. I don't think I'm going to now, I really want a CRF action in a magnum round. If anyone has any for sale or knows someone that does please send me a PM.
I haven't completely purchased this yet. I don't think I'm going to now, I really want a CRF action in a magnum round. If anyone has any for sale or knows someone that does please send me a PM.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
I would like to but i don't have that much money.
I would like to but i don't have that much money.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Just picked up a FN SPR; don't see myself going back to Rem700 type actions again!
Just picked up a FN SPR; don't see myself going back to Rem700 type actions again!
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Buy a 300WSM PBR and upgrade from there. That's on my acquisition list.
Buy a 300WSM PBR and upgrade from there. That's on my acquisition list.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
How good are the WSM rounds coompared to the Long action magnums?
How good are the WSM rounds coompared to the Long action magnums?
Re: Winchester Model 70?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How good are the WSM rounds coompared to the Long action magnums?
</div></div>
Performance of 300WSM is close to 300WM. 300WSM can hit 2800 with a 210gr bullet. The 300WM does have more capacity though, and will, ultimately, outperform it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mauser34</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How good are the WSM rounds coompared to the Long action magnums?
</div></div>
Performance of 300WSM is close to 300WM. 300WSM can hit 2800 with a 210gr bullet. The 300WM does have more capacity though, and will, ultimately, outperform it.
Re: Winchester Model 70?
Have a 70 Extreme Weather in 338 win mag.
Pro's:
Solid, smooth action.
Good stock.
Excellent contact on lugs.
Free Floated.
Good factory trigger.
Pretty on the outside.
Con's:
Magazine Box to short for virtually any seating depth adjustments (not an issue for "short mags" I've heard).
Problems ejecting spent shells. Sometimes the brass would do a 180 on the follower and face the other direction. Shells would just dribble out when ejected.
Last inch of the barrel/inside pitted.
Hours to clean.
Average accuracy. 1-1/2" to 2" on a good day.
Most people like theirs but I'm not on the bandwagon. Just another factory stick at the gunsmith to get fixed (extended mag box, mill ejection port for proper ejection, re-barrel, bed). I guess mines a dud or maybe I thought $1100 plus good glass might buy some happiness but not so.
Still... others love theirs.
Have a 70 Extreme Weather in 338 win mag.
Pro's:
Solid, smooth action.
Good stock.
Excellent contact on lugs.
Free Floated.
Good factory trigger.
Pretty on the outside.
Con's:
Magazine Box to short for virtually any seating depth adjustments (not an issue for "short mags" I've heard).
Problems ejecting spent shells. Sometimes the brass would do a 180 on the follower and face the other direction. Shells would just dribble out when ejected.
Last inch of the barrel/inside pitted.
Hours to clean.
Average accuracy. 1-1/2" to 2" on a good day.
Most people like theirs but I'm not on the bandwagon. Just another factory stick at the gunsmith to get fixed (extended mag box, mill ejection port for proper ejection, re-barrel, bed). I guess mines a dud or maybe I thought $1100 plus good glass might buy some happiness but not so.
Still... others love theirs.
