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Suppressors first time out with eco9

Re: first time out with eco9

When loading a wet can there are two approaches. One of them is the right way, but rarely done these days. The other works, but less so.

The right way to wet a can is to feed the ablative in from the rear of the can, the barrel end, not the can's end cap. Why? Because the ablative will work best in the first chambers. It will also last longer as it will take longer to work its way out of the can. But, like everything there are some issues.

Water is used by many. It does one of the best job, but lasts the least amount of time. It also can cause havoc on some weapon platforms as it can run back into the muzzle and the gas works. Other ablatives include wire gel, not as good as water in cooling but lasts longer. Or lithium grease, a reasonable coolant and lasts the longest and it lubes the Neilson and the protects the baffles. All the lithium will aspirate eventually as well.

The trick is to apply the ablative with a loading tool. This can also work well if the tools tip is specifically created to get the ablative back to the first chambers. The tool is a larger format syringe with a length of platic tubing attached. That tubing has a series of holes along it, allowing for the grease to be dispensed liberally, in fact the end of the tube (the tip) is sealed. With one, you can load from the end cap end of the can. Take the plunger out when you store the syring as the black rubber seal will be effected by the lithium.

One uses about 10ccs, no more. And one "twists" the tool as you slowly exit the can, properly loading the can as you go. nyou can be good for 12-24 rounds.

The can in that video will be much quieter when it is shot wet.

Still, even when wet, that can is not hearing safe. No supersonic 9 is. Tell the guy that left his plugs on the table to put them in his ears. Wet or dry, if it is over 88 dB, plug up.

IMG_0317.jpg


 
Re: first time out with eco9

thanks for the info i will have to do a little research on that. I just tried some 147 gr emcon rounds in the back yard all i can say is WOW im very happy with my purchase. the local gun store had some for about $23 for 50. I ordered some law man subsonic from cheaper than dirt for $12 for 50. Im thinking about trying it wet but have heard mixed opinions on how to clean, not to clean, and jailbroken cans. im just tying to sponge up as much info as i can. thanks for the guidance.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

A wet can is always quieter. Never shoot a rifle can wet without checking with the manufacturer.

The oddity of it was that back when, the idea was to provide a reasonable amount of very quiet shots. In other words, suppressors were designed to allow for no more than a clip of very quiet. Nobody needed more, and if they did, they were already in a fire fight or, they "dipped". Cans looked different, they were much smaller, much lighter. In the 80's the most popular can sold to the military in 9mm weighed a remarkable 3 ounces. Thats right 3 oz! All titanium. So light that no Neilson was required. Loaded with grease one got a handful of very quiet shots. At 5" it fit in your front pocket. Sight picture? Hell, it was less than 1" wide. Your can? 10 ozs and 50% wider. Think about that. Now, cans are as big as a canoe, volume based designs that allow folks to sit at ranges and bang away. Times change.

Your can has a Neilson, that Neilson needs to be kept clean and lubbed. You will never clean any other part of your can. No centerfire can needs or should come apart. Dont shoot any rimfire through it. If it was mine, I would be running it wet all the time. You won't believe the difference.

Filthy is quiet. Clean is loud.

be safe
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Your asking all the right questions. yes is the answer.

You will take it apart carefully per your directions. It is threaded in and you will not bugger the threads up by letting it spring out of the threads or screw it in off thread. Compress and feed the Neilson in and out.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

If it was me, I would contact AAC and get a "static" mount for that can as well. That means you can thread off your ASAP and thread on a static mount so you can thread your can on any 9mm static barrel rifle.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

I shot 100 rounds through it yesterday cleaned my pistol very dirty im guessing because the carbon that would normally go out the barrel. when i got home i took apart the piston system and read the directions i just used Remoil and tooth brush white T shirt and what not. i did notice that the piston was a little hard to come out.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A wet can is always quieter. Never shoot a rifle can wet without checking with the manufacturer.

The oddity of it was that back when, the idea was to provide a reasonable amount of very quiet shots. In other words, suppressors were designed to allow for no more than a clip of very quiet. Nobody needed more, and if they did, they were already in a fire fight or, they "dipped". Cans looked different, they were much smaller, much lighter. In the 80's the most popular can sold to the military in 9mm weighed a remarkable 3 ounces. Thats right 3 oz! All titanium. So light that no Neilson was required. Loaded with grease one got a handful of very quiet shots. At 5" it fit in your front pocket. Sight picture? Hell, it was less than 1" wide. Your can? 10 ozs and 50% wider. Think about that. Now, cans are as big as a canoe, volume based designs that allow folks to sit at ranges and bang away. Times change.

Your can has a Neilson, that Neilson needs to be kept clean and lubbed. You will never clean any other part of your can. No centerfire can needs or should come apart. Dont shoot any rimfire through it. If it was mine, I would be running it wet all the time. You won't believe the difference.

Filthy is quiet. Clean is loud.

be safe </div></div>Are you referring to AWC's Abraxas?
If so, I have the mid 90's version and it's 5.75", 5.7 oz and made of SS.
I don't believe it was available in titanium until later.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

where would you find lithium grease? and then wouldn't it be all icky in there and harden? sorry in advance for my rookieness yall are a great help.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gainer_reniag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">where would you find lithium grease? and then wouldn't it be all icky in there and harden? sorry in advance for my rookieness yall are a great help. </div></div>Being grease it won't dry out.
I bought a spray can of WD-40 brand lithium grease at Lowe's today.
Tomorrow I'm going to test it in an Abraxas, to see if has similar sound deadening characteristics to the syringe applied variety that can fling pieces back onto the operator.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Use the tool. Load 10cc from from the Neilson end with a twist. Load the first third only (all 10cc) and there will be no spit back. End cap loaded cores do that. Lithium deposited in the bore, near end cap, just spits out. When you use the side holes, the core is kept more open. It's a huge improvement. No buildup as the grease liquifies. You are right titanium in early 90s.

On the Abraixs there is no Neilson, start with 5cc from the rear. You will hear a huge improvement. If you leave large masses in the bore....it will spit it out.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Let me know how that WD works brother. @dood
i got you first 1/3 lay in the grease. it's still kind of weird putting that grease in there and not cleaning it so your saying the grease will liquify and disappear?
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Yes, but in actuality you would wish that it didn't. There is a general misunderstanding about cans, that being that like a barrel or receiver, you want it clean. You don't, just the opposit. You want as much filth to collect in the can as you can with one exception, filth that cannot be purged out of the can. Lead is a problem in rimfire cans because the bullets are unplated. It cakes and causes true hardship within the can. That is why we do not shoot rim fire through our centerfire cans. If we absolutely must, we use copper coated rimfire rounds as that cuts the leading way, way back. Aside from that, we never clean our can in the traditional sense of the word (more on this later.) Rather, we want to increase the internal turbulance and increase the deadening effect on frequency of debris held temporarily in the can itself.

Again, so there is no confusion, what follows is for PISTOL cartridge suppressors. Rifle cans are not typically run wet and can be dangerous as the higher pressures can cause hydrolock, a dangerous condition. PISTOL cartridges do not have this issue. This is where one should always say "check with our manufacturer as to whether your suppressor can be run wet."

There are a number of ways we do this:

1. We never clean a centerfire can until the can becomes perceptably louder. That takes thousand and thousands of rounds. Long before that, it will take thousands of rounds to QUIET your can DOWN. Building up simple propellant debris will soften the noise considerably.

2. We add wetting agents (ablatives) to "wet cans" to increase turbulance as well. This, along with the cooling capabilities makes a huge difference in performance. A can with lithium grease will be quieter, run cooler, have far more turbulance. It will smell for a good number of rounds as well and, if not loaded with the right amount (10cc) from the right end (thread) and the right way (side injected into the cavities while twisting for the first 1/3rd), they can spit. Do it properly and they do not.

3. White lithium grease protects all the internals of your can:
- Better corrossion protection
- Better lubrication of the Neilson in some designs
- Keeps the crap in suspension while increasing turbulance
- Suspended crap is "purged" out of the front of the can with a majority of good designs.

4. It all comes out:
- Either through heat and gassification/liquification
- or by using a cleaning tool (RARELY!, like every 4,000/5,000 rounds).
- That tool has a simular apprearence to the loading tool. Side mounted jets that spray high pressure water into the can and get all the particulate out. Will it remove lead? No, there should not be a leading problem. When the can sounds louder, it is because some designs are "capture designs" that have ports going to the outside of the armature, but that debris gets caught inside the envelope without anywhere to go. Most of those designs MUST be able to be opened up. If not, this tool can help them too. I should note that most folks DO NOT want to take out ALL the crap in their cans. You can clean the particulate in your can all the way back with this tool only to find you will have to shoot it back up with crap to quiet it.

In other words, grease is always quieter with zero downside in most designs.

The cleaning tool:

IMG_0D021.jpg


Watch this is you want to get a full dose...

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8193125/should-i-clean-my-centerfire-suppressor

Good luck.







 
Re: first time out with eco9

i went out to advance auto parts and got a lb. of hi temp extreme pressure lithium grease. that should do the trick i bet.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gainer_reniag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i went out to advance auto parts and got a lb. of hi temp extreme pressure lithium grease. that should do the trick i bet. </div></div>

just be careful to pack that stuff in good in the baffles because if some comes out and obstructs the bore than your in for a hoot. I prefer water, not as messy. Water will only last a few mags and you need to make sure your can is lubed afterwards but it's still my preferred method. I have seen someone use diet Dr.Pepper and Dater used urine for experimentation as an ablative.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gainer_reniag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me know how that WD works brother. @dood
i got you first 1/3 lay in the grease. it's still kind of weird putting that grease in there and not cleaning it so your saying the grease will liquify and disappear? </div></div>I bought my Abraxas from AWC before they started including the loading tool, and don't remember how effective the grease was.
It was inserted with a dowel and was hard to evenly fill the first three baffles, which resulted in spray back.
The spray white lithium grease that I tried today comes out very thin, so I'm only getting about 2cc into the baffles, and it vaporizes within ten shots.
It wasn't as quiet as when using water.
I'll order the loading tool from AWC and give an update then.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

All that comes from lithium in the bore is bore spit. Remember after a while you will need less to go longer.

10 shots is alot for can that is as small as yours. Water should be good for 4 or 5. That kind of quiet in that size is still remarkable.

Dr. Pepper has sugar and carmel a bad move. Urine is already warm, contains two trace types of amonia, three types of acids, etc. I'm going to go with....er, no. :>










 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All that comes from lithium in the bore is bore spit. Remember after a while you will need less to go longer.

10 shots is alot for can that is as small as yours. Water should be good for 4 or 5. That kind of quiet in that size is still remarkable.

Dr. Pepper has sugar and carmel a bad move. Urine is already warm, contains two trace types of amonia, three types of acids, etc. I'm going to go with....er, no. :></div></div>Yes, for it's size I'm surprised by it's performance.
Even though I bought the optional Neilson device, with a little gunsmithing on the barrel I'm almost at the point that it will cycle without it.
Here's some references;
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58168
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18120
http://silencertalk.com/results.htm
http://armslocker.com/gun-talk/34243-suppressor-question-hardrock.html
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?93835-AWC-Abraxas-on-Glock-17-Persistent-malfunctions-FTE
 
Re: first time out with eco9

"if it is over 88 dB, plug up. "

How would you ever have a hearing safe can, dry firing a 10/22 is over 100db? A really good 22 is around 115db, so 88 seems unobtainable.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gainer_reniag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you have to use white grease because the crap i bought is red </div></div>You would want lithium grease, and I haven't seen it sold in anything other than the white variety.

Here's a range report with an Abraxas, ordered from least to most suppression;
Spray M-Pro 7 cleaner in first three chambers of thread end (5cc) - lasts 2 rounds, sprays
Spray lithium grease in first three chambers of thread end (5cc) - lasts 3 rounds, vapor, no spray
Dipped in water, drain for 10 seconds (?cc) - lasts 2 rounds, sprays
Non lithium grease in first three chambers of thread end (5cc) - lasts 5 rounds with about 5% left, smokes, no spray
I've ordered the loading tool from AWC.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Dip it in water, snap it out and your all set, should be good for 4-6 quiet.

No good lithium can be sprayed.

With the White Lithium, it will take time for the grease to set in. Good for 6-8. A 3oz Neilsonless can that fits in your front pocket and is good for a clip is not a bad thing. One service ordered them last year in Ti for a tiny .380 package. In many ways, it was really intelligent rig.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Couldn't that cleaning tool also be used as a loading tool for grease? If the holes/Ports were spaced at the same distance as the baffles? With a grease Zerk on the knurled end, just a few pumps and you'd have your baffles loaded!

-Rick
 
Re: first time out with eco9

You want a larger diameter tube to load the chambers. The thinner tool generates the pressure you don't want with thick grease.

You can definately make what you need though.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

The AWC loading tool isn't designed that well.
It has three sets of two holes that are positioned 180 degrees off from each other, with the end plugged.
The problem is that there is a drop in pressure between sets, so about 75% of the grease comes out of the first two holes into the first chamber, 25% out of the next, and none from the last.
Opening up the second and third sets of holes helps a little, but not enough to even the flow.
I fixed this by replacing it with a tube with only one hole near the plugged end.
Inserting the tube so that it starts in the third chamber, and withdrawing it in a spiral pattern while squeezing the syringe, evenly distributes the 10cc of white lithium grease.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Think about it now.....think......

Which chamber do you want to really load?
Which do you want to load less?
What happens when you withdrawl under pressure?
 
Re: first time out with eco9

I've been using water in my AAC cans for over a decade. Before installing the can on the gun, pour a little water in the threaded end. Shake. Put the can on the gun. <span style="text-decoration: line-through">Mine</span> My cans are very quiet for at least the first entire magazine.

But on the Evo-9, water does get that Nielsen device dirty quickly.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think about it now.....think......

Which chamber do you want to really load?
Which do you want to load less?
What happens when you withdrawl under pressure?

</div></div>Of course I thought of that, but if that was the design specification, why have no grease come out into the third chamber?
As a side note, the Abraxas has a very small first chamber (for decreased FRP?) that the tool skips over, so it's actually chambers two though four.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Heaviest in the first, lighter in the second, lightest in the third. Withdrawling the tool from the thread end clears the bore pathway.

Anyway, how did it sound?
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heaviest in the first, lighter in the second, lightest in the third. Withdrawling the tool from the thread end clears the bore pathway.

Anyway, how did it sound? </div></div>Didn't get to the range, I'll have an update this weekend or next.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

Filled the first three chambers with 10cc of white lithium grease, made sure the bore was clear, and the first shot (10 ring) was fine.
Then I detached the suppressor to see how the grease migrated, and saw that it had splashed into the bore in places, so I cleared it back into the chambers with a dowel.
Reassembled and shot four more.
Took off the suppressor, found an end cap strike, and saw that the bullets had gone down range sideways.
I assume this was because the grease had made contact, destabilizing them.

I've switched back to the spray white lithium grease, which doesn't last as long, but is less problematic.

IMG_0533-small.JPG

IMG_0536-small.JPG
 
Re: first time out with eco9

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: d00d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Of course I thought of that, but if that was the design specification, why have no grease come out into the third chamber?
As a side note, the Abraxas has a very small first chamber <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">(for decreased FRP?) </span></span></span>that the tool skips over, so it's actually chambers two though four. </div></div>

First round pop has to do with the oxygen in the can that accumalates after non-usage.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

There are several thoughts on how to design for FRP, increase turbulence in the blast chamber or decrease the blast chamber size, so the Abraxas employs the latter.
 
Re: first time out with eco9

The September 1993 first edition of the Abraxas manual doesn't specify amount, but the article by Peter G. Kokalis in the November 2003 edition of SAR says 4-5cc if dry, and 2cc if not.