??? For tactical match gas gun users.

[Lofty]

I have a question for those that use gas guns in a tactical precision style shooting match.

When you are shooting a stage that requires you move from barricade to barricade and clear your gun before moving, what do you do with the bullet in the chamber?

Do you just drop the mag and eject the live round onto the ground and go back for it later? It seems like that would add an extra 20-30 rounds of live ammo gone for every match because most of it you'd never find and with most matches you're probably gonna be dumping at least 50 rounds on the ground and if you're concerned about winning at all time spent picking them up during the stage has to be a consideration.

 

[RufDog]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

I dump it & dont worry about it until I'm done, if at all. There's so much more on your mind at a match.

 

[sawgunner2001]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Yup, dump 'em and go.

At PMG, I'm guessing I only lost a few live rounds as there weren't that many stages that required dropping the mag and opening the bolt prior to movement. Between that and the RO's picking up my live rounds for me as I completed the stage (I didn't ask 'em to, they just did it behind me), I only lost about 5 or 6 pieces of ammunition. And that's guessing high. A more likely number seems to be 2 or 3 that were actually unrecovered.

 

[Lofty]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Ok, makes sense.

After seeing how well the semis were doing at PMG and the obvious advantage they had in some stages, I'm seriously looking at a JP to compete with.

I can't see the downside over a bolt gun and can only see the positives.

 

[sawgunner2001]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, makes sense.

After seeing how well the semis were doing at PMG and the obvious advantage they had in some stages, I'm seriously looking at a JP to compete with.

I can't see the downside over a bolt gun and can only see the positives.

</div></div>

You were obviously watching someone other than me!

Seriously though, I "may" be going back to a bolt gun. I have run a couple matches with a bolt gun and done very well. This was my first match with a gasser and didn't do well at all. I haven't ascertained what went wrong yet, but the lazy part of me wants to go back to what was working well...that being a bolt gun. I haven't decided yet. But I do see your point, as it was a JP rifle that took home the bacon.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

GAP10's are the DEAL!!! my 6CM will be my primary comp gun unless i absolutely can't run it.

 

[Wolfish365]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Too bad there aren't any matches like that around here. I built my father an AR for his birthday and have finally gotten around to getting myself another build to work on. So after some practice, this kind of match would be right up my alley.

 

[Lofty]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawgunner2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, makes sense.

After seeing how well the semis were doing at PMG and the obvious advantage they had in some stages, I'm seriously looking at a JP to compete with.

I can't see the downside over a bolt gun and can only see the positives.

</div></div>

You were obviously watching someone other than me!

Seriously though, I "may" be going back to a bolt gun. I have run a couple matches with a bolt gun and done very well. This was my first match with a gasser and didn't do well at all. I haven't ascertained what went wrong yet, but the lazy part of me wants to go back to what was working well...that being a bolt gun. I haven't decided yet. But I do see your point, as it was a JP rifle that took home the bacon. </div></div>

What were you shooting?

 

[stinkyDrunk]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Unloading on the clock is poor stage design. Stages like this should be timed in multiple strings. Shooter engages from first position, that is the first string, unloads off the clock. RSO verifies empty chamber, notes time, restarts timer. Shooter moves on second string start. Safety should not be rushed.

 

[Lofty]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stinkyDrunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unloading on the clock is poor stage design. Stages like this should be timed in multiple strings. Shooter engages from first position, that is the first string, unloads off the clock. RSO verifies empty chamber, notes time, restarts timer. Shooter moves on second string start. Safety should not be rushed. </div></div>

That is a very valid point, very valid point indeed.

 

[1911fan]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

At least at the matches I've been to, the ROs have had bolt gun shooters move between obstacles/shooting positions on a given stage with the bolt back. It's easy to verify. Gassers have to have the bolt back, which is hard to verify, so the normal practice is to have the shooter drop the mag as well.
This pretty much negates the perceived advantage of the gasser, since the bolt gun isn't as rapid once the target is acquired. Maybe that's the idea.
Most of the gas gun shooters I compete with have a bunch of mags, so they load accordingly. When you finish part of the stage and have to move, the mag is now empty, bolt automatically locked back, and shooter just punches out the empty mag and moves to the next position.

I know you're thinking, "But the match was won by a semi!"; I'd guess probably more Indian than arrow.


1911fan

 

[Lofty]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Oh I know it was the Indian in this case.

In many stages you cant predict when you are going to move cause you cant move until you've cleared your targets so you cant load accordingly. You just have to drop the mag, strip the bolt and engage the bolt catch/release to hold the bolt open.

 

[SFree]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

Depending on stock type it could be beneficial to have a "stock pack" type attachment with loops to insert dropped rounds or even an elastic wrist carrier for rounds to pick up and go...

Just thinking out load...

 

[Rob01]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

I have only seen in all the matches I have been to less than a handful of times where a semi would have been of an advantage. I have never felt undergunned with my bolt guns with mags.

As for the stages, stages like at Rifles Only mousetrap where you were shooting 2 shots from each position then most semi shooters would do like 1911 said. That's the smart way to run those stages and how I would do it with a semi.

The other stages where you don't know how many rounds you would fire you would have to dump a round and remove the mag. It's a safety issue. A bolt gun with the bolt back and mag in won't load and lock itself by hitting a small button like a semi can. Having the ammo out of the semi is the only safe way to move especially with people around. If there was a larger area with no 180 degree problem then they would either lock back or just have them safety but that comes down to the match director and how safe he feels having the shooters move with the weapons.

I am glad and hope they continue to err on the side of safety as I want to go home with the same amount of holes I went to a match with. If that means that semi auto shooters have to lose a live round then so be it. It's part of getting ready for a match. The choosing the right tool for the job. If you choose to shoot a semi then expect to lose live rounds. If you shoot right then you should be able to make up the time you lose from taking out mags with faster follow up shots so there isn't really any time disparities.

 

[sawgunner2001]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawgunner2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, makes sense.

After seeing how well the semis were doing at PMG and the obvious advantage they had in some stages, I'm seriously looking at a JP to compete with.

I can't see the downside over a bolt gun and can only see the positives.

</div></div>

You were obviously watching someone other than me!

Seriously though, I "may" be going back to a bolt gun. I have run a couple matches with a bolt gun and done very well. This was my first match with a gasser and didn't do well at all. I haven't ascertained what went wrong yet, but the lazy part of me wants to go back to what was working well...that being a bolt gun. I haven't decided yet. But I do see your point, as it was a JP rifle that took home the bacon. </div></div>

What were you shooting?</div></div>

I was shooting one of GA Precision's older gassers built on a DPMS lower. I didn't have verified dope beyond 300 yds, but had a chrono reading of 2590. Somehow the ballistic calculator was off...by a lot. And with the timed stages and trying as hard as I could to get my partner the best score he could, I wasn't able to figure out how much everything was off by. Regardless, thats a discussion for another thread.

Having now run both a bolt and a gasser, my thoughts on the matter are this: I don't think it matters if you run a bolt or a gasser. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, and almost equally so. What matters is what do YOU want to shoot and what do YOU shoot well. Bolt or gasser doesn't really make any difference IMO.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

I sometimes drop my mag before taking the last shot so my bolt will also stay open since some matches require that before moving. Another option is loading multiple mags with the round count for each part of that stage prior so before each stage position change you're already empty and you can simply load a new mag. On the stages though that you can't have an exact round count you're pretty much shit out of luck... lol

 

[sawgunner2001]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I sometimes drop my mag before taking the last shot so my bolt will also stay open since some matches require that before moving. Another option is loading multiple mags with the round count for each part of that stage prior so before each stage position change you're already empty and you can simply load a new mag. On the stages though that you can't have an exact round count you're pretty much shit out of luck... lol</div></div>

You're not shit outta luck...you just gotta drop the mag and let it hit the ground (with however many rounds remaining), eject loaded cartridge (allowing it to go where it pleases) and lock bolt to the rear, move to the next position, insert new mag, and release the bolt. This doesn't require that much time. With practice, I'll bet that its just as quick as cycling the bolt to eject fired case, dropping the mag (and retaining it because it holds only 10 rds vs. 20 on a gasser), moving to the next position, inserting previously released mag (or a fresh one), and closing the bolt. The time difference between the two is negligible, I think.

Additionally, I always loaded more ammunition than what the stage called for in case of a malfunction. I also carried more magazines than what a stage called for, for you guessed it...the event of a malfunction. It is almost without exception faster to change a magazine during immediate action than it is to fix the problem with the current mag. Personally, I don't like the gun going dry because it will do so in the least opportune moments.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I sometimes drop my mag before taking the last shot so my bolt will also stay open since some matches require that before moving.</span></span> Another option is loading multiple mags with the round count for each part of that stage prior so before each stage position change you're already empty and you can simply load a new mag. On the stages though that you can't have an exact round count you're pretty much shit out of luck... lol </div></div>

On what semi auto rifle does the bolt stay open when fired without a magazine in place?

 

[-Nick-]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawgunner2001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...you just gotta drop the mag and let it hit the ground...</div></div>

Yeah about that... At the last match in Moses Lake where the ground is a combination of sand and volcanic ash which makes the ultimate dust from hell I did that. I ended up having several weapons malfunction as the sand would get inside the magazine and then inside the chamber and would cause jamming and feed issues. The crap just stuck to everything. I'll take a majority of the blame for not keeping my equipment clean enough...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wfjames22</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 14pt">I sometimes drop my mag before taking the last shot so my bolt will also stay open since some matches require that before moving.</span></span> Another option is loading multiple mags with the round count for each part of that stage prior so before each stage position change you're already empty and you can simply load a new mag. On the stages though that you can't have an exact round count you're pretty much shit out of luck... lol </div></div>

On what semi auto rifle does the bolt stay open when fired without a magazine in place? </div></div>

Uh yeah about that... I don't know where the fuck my mind went, but you are correct sir and I am retarded. Somehow my brain put running the mag to empty with dropping the mag and having the bolt lock back and created that bastardized thought that ended up in a post.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: ??? For tactical match gas gun users.

I have ran My gap 10 6 creedmore 2 times now, Including PMG, and so far have been able to drop the mag and then eject the live round into my right hand where I drop it in a dump pouch on my right side. I drop 1 occasionally and go on but ROs generally reach them back afterwards.